On March 19 2013 14:17 Riner1212 wrote: All i have been doing is just using the same exact units from WOL and i hardly use any HOTS units. cuz the build orders from WOL are all i know.
Hard to improve or learn new build orders if you refuse to practice it xD
On March 19 2013 14:16 Riner1212 wrote:
On March 19 2013 13:37 Torrathyr wrote:
On March 14 2013 05:52 blade55555 wrote:
On March 14 2013 05:49 Advantageous wrote: Where is protoss? why all zerg?
Because we zergs like to write guides and help our fellow zergs out. Protosses aren't as nice, neither are terrans :D
Terran guide: "Really? Did you watch any of the games at MLG?" Protoss guide: "Do what MC is doing in PvT and PvP and do what PartinG has always been doing in PvZ"
This Zerg guide is required because up to this point, the only strategy I could think of to deal with Terrans or Protoss was to play as good as life =|
Also, amazing guide, I'm bookmarking it and referring back to it whenever I can
Not everyone has the time to watch MLG. Why hasnt team liquid posted any terran guides vs all races?...
Because there are no terrans who want to write guides.
I just want this to be known that I wasn't forced to write this, hell I wasn't even asked to I wrote it myself got help from TL members for editing/formatting because this place is badass and then this was created. This wasn't forced upon anyone, nobody who did this was forced to work on this zerg guide, I wrote it, I got help for editing/formatting and then I released it. .
So in a nutshell, as a terran player basically i have to analyze your guide and work my way back from it, to see which options will help me win the game vs zerg.
Nah I would more say bug terran players to write guides tbh. I don't know why terrans don't have guide writers :/.
On March 19 2013 14:23 Arisen wrote: Ok, so I really hate to use times because people do some crazy shit and even when it's a standard opening, I'm just really bad at remembering times. What triggers do you use when you're not using straight times to put down your buildings? For example, I had a game where a guy just made a random ass batch of lings and made a third queen to deny scouting, so i was dumping gas and minerals into dealing with this harassment, and now my lair and 2/3 gas timings are all screwed up because I couldn't really get them at the time specified and be ok versus the harass, then I didn't know when the right time to get gas was, and it was all a big mess.
Well in those type of games there is no set time or anything to do anything. Those type of games go completely by feel. I couldn't tell you what to do because every game is different and you just have to feel when you think it's the right time to go lair, get muta, etc in those type of situations.
I could analyze the game hypothetically and tell you, but the next time you are in that situation will be completely different from the replay as things happen differently.
The timings I have are for more normal games, when there is weird stuff happening (proxy 2 rax, proxy gates, etc) you just have to adapt to the situation.
On March 19 2013 14:17 Riner1212 wrote: All i have been doing is just using the same exact units from WOL and i hardly use any HOTS units. cuz the build orders from WOL are all i know.
Hard to improve or learn new build orders if you refuse to practice it xD
On March 19 2013 14:16 Riner1212 wrote:
On March 19 2013 13:37 Torrathyr wrote:
On March 14 2013 05:52 blade55555 wrote:
On March 14 2013 05:49 Advantageous wrote: Where is protoss? why all zerg?
Because we zergs like to write guides and help our fellow zergs out. Protosses aren't as nice, neither are terrans :D
Terran guide: "Really? Did you watch any of the games at MLG?" Protoss guide: "Do what MC is doing in PvT and PvP and do what PartinG has always been doing in PvZ"
This Zerg guide is required because up to this point, the only strategy I could think of to deal with Terrans or Protoss was to play as good as life =|
Also, amazing guide, I'm bookmarking it and referring back to it whenever I can
Not everyone has the time to watch MLG. Why hasnt team liquid posted any terran guides vs all races?...
Because there are no terrans who want to write guides.
I just want this to be known that I wasn't forced to write this, hell I wasn't even asked to I wrote it myself got help from TL members for editing/formatting because this place is badass and then this was created. This wasn't forced upon anyone, nobody who did this was forced to work on this zerg guide, I wrote it, I got help for editing/formatting and then I released it. .
So in a nutshell, as a terran player basically i have to analyze your guide and work my way back from it, to see which options will help me win the game vs zerg.
Nah I would more say bug terran players to write guides tbh. I don't know why terrans don't have guide writers :/.
On March 19 2013 14:23 Arisen wrote: Ok, so I really hate to use times because people do some crazy shit and even when it's a standard opening, I'm just really bad at remembering times. What triggers do you use when you're not using straight times to put down your buildings? For example, I had a game where a guy just made a random ass batch of lings and made a third queen to deny scouting, so i was dumping gas and minerals into dealing with this harassment, and now my lair and 2/3 gas timings are all screwed up because I couldn't really get them at the time specified and be ok versus the harass, then I didn't know when the right time to get gas was, and it was all a big mess.
Well in those type of games there is no set time or anything to do anything. Those type of games go completely by feel. I couldn't tell you what to do because every game is different and you just have to feel when you think it's the right time to go lair, get muta, etc in those type of situations.
I could analyze the game hypothetically and tell you, but the next time you are in that situation will be completely different from the replay as things happen differently.
The timings I have are for more normal games, when there is weird stuff happening (proxy 2 rax, proxy gates, etc) you just have to adapt to the situation.
Well from a scientific perspective the only way to beat zergs that follow this guide is pretty much working your way backwards. Kinda like the human body, scientists never had a manual on how the human body works, mostly trial and error and working backwards from the end result and as to why this works this way and that way, thats the only solution i see. long story short having a build that pretty much counters yours.
On March 19 2013 11:04 sdnnvs wrote: Good guide. But not fully agree with the usefulness of Swarm Host. No pro won any match using this unit. Expensive, slow, easy to detect. Who won with SH, was already winning by other means.
Not really. You should watch Monster vs. Hack in HSL(?). It was ZvT, and Monster showed great play with SH against Terran, and how to zone him out, while expanding and teching up to Hive. Also, Leenock played good games against BabyKnight.
On March 19 2013 11:04 sdnnvs wrote: Good guide. But not fully agree with the usefulness of Swarm Host. No pro won any match using this unit. Expensive, slow, easy to detect. Who won with SH, was already winning by other means.
Not really. You should watch Monster vs. Hack in HSL(?). It was ZvT, and Monster showed great play with SH against Terran, and how to zone him out, while expanding and teching up to Hive. Also, Leenock played good games against BabyKnight.
Can you by any chance link those games here or pm me them? I heard about it to and while I use swarmhosts in zvt and just been wrecking face I want to see how monster does it (always good to see how good zergs use them :D).
On March 19 2013 11:04 sdnnvs wrote: Good guide. But not fully agree with the usefulness of Swarm Host. No pro won any match using this unit. Expensive, slow, easy to detect. Who won with SH, was already winning by other means.
Not really. You should watch Monster vs. Hack in HSL(?). It was ZvT, and Monster showed great play with SH against Terran, and how to zone him out, while expanding and teching up to Hive. Also, Leenock played good games against BabyKnight.
Can you by any chance link those games here or pm me them? I heard about it to and while I use swarmhosts in zvt and just been wrecking face I want to see how monster does it (always good to see how good zergs use them :D).
Sure, no problem.
This Video show all of the games of Monster vs. Hack. On his channel you can see other games as well from that tournament. Monster was using Swarm Hosts vs. Protoss, but the Akilon Wastes was the only game vs. Hack were he used Swarm Hosts in ZvT. It wasn't perfect, but was pretty much how you are supposed to use them, always active, burrow-spawn-unburrow-go back etc.
Mid master Zerg US/Random EU here - I was just wondering. Why do people still neglect 15 pool 16 hatch in zvt? I am doing this build with great success so far - Yes, I may be behind slightly in economy, but I have two queens out WAY earlier to deal with reapers. Yes, a few ladder maps make it really easy to defend early reapers, while others do really support things like the 8-8-8. Do you have any replays where you hold such an allin on a "reaper map" with 15 hatch?
Thanks a lot blade, I didn't notice your material until your awesome SH replay pack during the beta, this guide is awesome material, I really hope you will keep updating it in a clear fashion (in order to make it easy for people to read the new or updated sections of it).
I would like to thank you for this awesome guide and for your videos (even if your mouse is shaking a bit too much :p).
I love the way you are using swarmhosts (especially when I saw Leenock's game at MLG).
But the thing is that I'm still noobish and don't have the same vision of the game, the timings part of your BOs are a bit hard to masterize. I know it's all about feeling, but is there a way or some tricks to deal with them ? Like bases saturation ? Because I'm always feeling like "meh, I have to put down my 4th and 5th gaz and I don't even have enough drones on my 3rd base".
Thank you so much for your work : there is a lot of information and I m not that brilliant to memorize every details... so I try to use mind mapping in order to make a synthesis of build orders... this is my post http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?id=403905 this is the first version of the documents ( exported as JPEG from FreePlane ... there is a Flash version more dynamic but I can't post it in this blog ... )
Tell me if you see any interest and if you allow me to publish this kind of post ( btw, I'll make the job for me anyway but I won"t make it public)
On March 19 2013 20:20 Prugelhugel wrote: Mid master Zerg US/Random EU here - I was just wondering. Why do people still neglect 15 pool 16 hatch in zvt? I am doing this build with great success so far - Yes, I may be behind slightly in economy, but I have two queens out WAY earlier to deal with reapers. Yes, a few ladder maps make it really easy to defend early reapers, while others do really support things like the 8-8-8. Do you have any replays where you hold such an allin on a "reaper map" with 15 hatch?
Because honestly 15 pool 16 hatch doesn't help that much verse reapers. Not worth the economic hit imo. Honestly if you are so worried about reapers you aren't going to hatch first you might is well 14/14. From what I was told (I haven't done this so just saying what some zergs told me) is that they killed the terran who went reaper with a ling/bane bust off of a 14/14. Never tried it, never going to, but if I were to do an earlier pool because of reaper I would do 14/14.
On March 19 2013 21:18 MiMiKn wrote: I would like to thank you for this awesome guide and for your videos (even if your mouse is shaking a bit too much :p).
I love the way you are using swarmhosts (especially when I saw Leenock's game at MLG).
But the thing is that I'm still noobish and don't have the same vision of the game, the timings part of your BOs are a bit hard to masterize. I know it's all about feeling, but is there a way or some tricks to deal with them ? Like bases saturation ? Because I'm always feeling like "meh, I have to put down my 4th and 5th gaz and I don't even have enough drones on my 3rd base".
(And sorry for my approximate english ^.^)
You can go by drone count, that's a good way to kind of "feel" when you should go x tech or lair. Not really anything else other then feel that I can think of atm.
On March 19 2013 22:12 monsta wrote: nice but the main problems of zergs werent the build order or the styles.. more important is now the heavy micro in hots now for zergs
Actually it was many things not just micro like you think . This guide also shows different styles that zergs who didn't play hots (or even if they did) didn't know about.
On March 20 2013 01:59 StoubyW wrote: Hi Blade,
Thank you so much for your work : there is a lot of information and I m not that brilliant to memorize every details... so I try to use mind mapping in order to make a synthesis of build orders... this is my post http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?id=403905 this is the first version of the documents ( exported as JPEG from FreePlane ... there is a Flash version more dynamic but I can't post it in this blog ... )
Tell me if you see any interest and if you allow me to publish this kind of post ( btw, I'll make the job for me anyway but I won"t make it public)
regards
You can do that I don't have a problem with it.
On March 20 2013 02:08 nghtkiller wrote: Hi I have a silly question, I couldn't completely see the ZvP early build ( I'm noob silver league guy )
what i got is : -15 pool -16 hatch -17 queen with gas trick -19 overlord -20 hatch
Early game zvp should be this:
15 pool 16 hatch 17 - overlord queen after pool finishes 21 third hatch 25 overlord
Those should be the correct ones, there are replays you can download and watch to compare don't forget about those!
What is the rationale behind armor first? I feel it is incredibly hard to keep up with armor upgrade vs protoss ground weapons, and protoss can almost always time out an attack and huge engagement just when his upgrade is finished, making all the efforts useless. Also most of the damage mid-late game is done by colos, storms and immortals and 1 armor is not something that helps much against that. Instead faster ranged upgrades are really useful especially in HOTS since swarmhosts use those and hydras are much more viable with vipers and speed upgrade. And they are cheaper (upgrades)!
On March 20 2013 09:08 Cheerio wrote: What is the rationale behind armor first? I feel it is incredibly hard to keep up with armor upgrade vs protoss ground weapons, and protoss can almost always time out an attack and huge engagement just when his upgrade is finished, making all the efforts useless. Also most of the damage mid-late game is done by colos, storms and immortals and 1 armor is not something that helps much against that. Instead faster ranged upgrades are really useful especially in HOTS since swarmhosts use those and hydras are much more viable with vipers and speed upgrade. And they are cheaper (upgrades)!
I actually changed it to +1 ranged and then once that finishes start +2 ranged and have a 2nd evo getting carapace. Forgot to update the OP with that.
EPT
