yeah but even so i find i gotta keep my mutas defensively ..or most of them at least, as their lings/banes will destroy mine :/
a while ago in WoL I'd do that 1-1 build a lot to players who looked like they were going muta and I felt like I only ever lost if i made a mistake...it was so strong vs muta
Oh yeah you do have to keep muta defensive but if he keeps sending lings he has to do damage. If its all they do then yeah keep defensive and you will eventually have so much you can kill him.
On March 24 2013 11:29 Zelniq wrote: well if they dont see you move out, they don't attack and go to infestor + hive--> ultra usually
All right now that I am home I can go into more detail.
If he isn't moving out you should be pushing out with your units, once he starts pushing out defending, if he is teching hive you will have a huge window to kill him with roaches if you choose.
The 2 things you can do vs a player who will only do a counter attack is make sure to have super solid defense before pushing out with mutas and going hive to ultra yourself, or you can do a roach/muta timing that will kill him easy peasy as if he's making so many lings no way in hell he's going to have many roaches if any and if he's going infestors he won't have a lot either (again if he's making so many lings he can't be droning that much).
I played a player who literally this is all he does when I play him in zvz every single game he goes 1/1 and he just constantly attacks and all I do is stay defensive and then I kill him as he tries to tech. I haven't played him in a long time though and he was the only one who did it to me so I don't have much more experience other then when cats did it to me in beta and I just killed him with a roach timing cause he was going so ling heavy and going hive.
I've been approaching protoss with 10-13 SH, some ling support, and hydras. However instead of going straight to ultras I get out vipers first, and then go into ultras. So I basically have a 100% SH hydra army until I get some vipers.
What are your thoughts on this? In your 'standard macro game' with SH vs protoss you don't seem to describe vipers at all. Why not? Should I just skip them all together? Should I just pump out more ultras? Thanks!
-Edit, forgot to clarify: I'm not getting corruptors, because I feel like they melt way too fast to VR, really. and once he has got an adequate number of colossi, they just kill everything before my corruptors kill them, and then afterwards I have a lot of useless supply, if he didn't use VR.
So I'm using vipers to pull colossi into my hydra/SH ball.
Mid/high Master level, btw. (Or at least - in WoL, I haven't played too much HotS, but I will get back there soon enough, going to play some more this week.)
On August 20 2012 17:02 Chaosvuistje wrote: I keep coming close to beating this style with an odd Mutalisk based style of my own. As if you open mutalisks, he will get ultras out before I can even finish my hive. Ofcourse his upgrades will be better as well, so going for Ultralisk of your own to counter him seems waay too out there. Aside from Ultralisks of your own, nothing on the ground really beats them for cost efficiency.
So what I do is during the time my spire is building ( when I already know that he is going for +1/+1 lings and probably infestors ) I put down my evo chamber and get +1 melee of my own. That'll make my banelings one-shot zerglings again until they finally reach +3/+3, which is way past the time that the usual counter attacks go on. I take my bases and stay defensive while getting drops. The strangest thing against this build is that you have to stay really defensive, even with your Mutalisks, because counter attacks on your bases are just so strong.
Once drop tech finishes, I load up about 6 overlords worth of banelings and spread them out. Infestors are actually really terrible against both overlords and any air unit spread out, so I can easily put them around his fourth base if he took it and snipe it out with mutalisks and zerglings. Once he moves in with lings of his own, you start dropping banes from the overlords that are closest, whiping his army out if he gets too close. Then, when his infestors move in, spread your mutalisks out like mad and start sniping them. The goal is basically to make each fungal so ineffective that he either has to deplete his infestors with infested terran eggs or lose his infestors trying to fungal each of them. If all went well, and he decides to go for a huge attack with Ultras, you should be able to atleast take out the first wave if you can delay the ultras from wrecking your econ too much.
It's pretty tough to do, but since you will almost always take your third and fourth before the ultra-player, you will be ahead economically even if he decides to techswitch into roaches or hydras, while spines are generally really good against those units regardless.
I have some failed attempts of the muta-banedrop play thus far. My actual attack works out really really well, but beforehand I kept getting bases sniped forcing me to stay on the same econ as my opponent. In which case you're pretty much down and out against this infestor-ultra build anyway. They are the closest games I've been able to produce against this style when opening muta anyway, so it's a step in the right direction.
On August 21 2012 07:32 Chaosvuistje wrote: Alright so here are some games of me playing Muta against this Infestor-Ultra style.
These two games show the power of the counter attack. Zerglings just shred a base up in seconds so it is absolutely essential to keep up on the defence. This is also why you pretty much need +1 melee so your banelings kill the counter attacks more easily again. There's not really much to talk about in these two replays, mostly just examples of 'defend with your units, any attack is greedy'.
This replay shows what I feel you have to do with your army. Make sure you split the mutalisks and overlords out and just set up a perimeter around the opponents fourth with the overlords. Move in with your mutalisks and take care of that hatch. Incase he comes to attack, drop the banelings to ward him off. If his infestors move out too far, you can easily snipe them out with a big magic box.
What I consider to be my first true win against this style due to similar skill in my opponent. The big points here are the fact that I walled off the third with evo chambers and just spammed spinecrawlers like there was no tomorrow. Defending any counter attacks with banelings was rather easy, but you have to stay on top with the defense otherwise you will lose your advantage.
Again, the focus of this style is to make sure you deny his fourth for a long time. Overlords with baneligns are essential not because of their damage, but because spread out overlords simply aren't cost effective to fungal. On top of that, if you really want to kill of the overlord, you will have to drop infested terrans out first and then fungal, but you can't move in and the banelings will still kill off the infested terrans once they hatch. Even if the opponent decides to fungal the dropping banes, they would have to do that a ton, wasting energy on cheap units. If you ahve a large enough flock of mutalisks, seconds is all you need to snipe off a hatch, and thats exactly what the overlords give you.
If he decides to counter attack with ultralisks, your insane mutacount should be enough to clean him up. The trick here is to delay his ultras from doing damage to your econ and hatches, that's why you just spam out spinecrawlers when you get your fourth up.
I'll be honest though, this style isn't that easy to execute. You have to constantly babysit your mutalisks and overlords so they don't clump up. The one way you can get absolutely and utterly destroyed is by having your deathflock fungalled in one go. Think of an archon toilet, but much, much sadder to watch.
These replays are all at around 2050-2000 MMR. So take them with a grain of salt if you will.
I imagine this working better now that mutalisks are stronger, but I haven't encountered this strategy a lot in HotS yet. So I'm afraid I don't have any recent replays due to my inactivity during the winter and autumn :/
how do you deal with protoss poking out with mothership core and first 2 gateways? It doesn't seem like there's much scouting you can do to figure out its going on until they're already incoming and I always end up losing at least a queen to this harassment, if not a handful of drones too, and the game just snowballs from there
On March 25 2013 02:29 Arisen wrote: how do you deal with protoss poking out with mothership core and first 2 gateways? It doesn't seem like there's much scouting you can do to figure out its going on until they're already incoming and I always end up losing at least a queen to this harassment, if not a handful of drones too, and the game just snowballs from there
Incorporate another queen in your build. Get 2 at your third to stop this nonsense from happening, and use it to get some nice creepspread. Then afterwards you can always use it to inject macro/4th hatch.
On March 25 2013 02:29 Arisen wrote: how do you deal with protoss poking out with mothership core and first 2 gateways? It doesn't seem like there's much scouting you can do to figure out its going on until they're already incoming and I always end up losing at least a queen to this harassment, if not a handful of drones too, and the game just snowballs from there
You should have 2 queens to focus it, but lings and 2 queens deal with it just fine.
Thanks for the guides. Just reached diamond due to most of your builds. Still struggling a bit vs Protoss, but I've been trying to experiment rather than use the swarm hosts. I think I'll be trying the hosts a lot more. I would love for you to throw out some more ides.
I am a mid/high diamond player using these builds.
I have a small problem vs toss with the toss build you have on this. First off I would like to say I LOVE this zvp build and am pretty good at it, however, I find it somewhat difficult to deal with storms. I have the micro capabilities to deal with it just fine for the most part but either due to the mechanics of hydras I cannot seem to split them too well. By the mechanics I mean the fact that hydras make a "wall" of sorts which eat storms as well as their somewhat slow movement speed( as opposed to ling/rines/ other light units to split with). I was wondering if there was any other way that you deal with HTs other than splitting. I played a few practice games and tried taking 16-20 lings after a-moving into his army and sttempting to surround his HTs before they could storm, with no avail. Any othe suggestions you have for this dilemma?
I'm quite curious about ZvT and the muta ling into swarmhost style, the general idea is to get mutalisk first to deal with drop (stop at ~12? Do you research any air upgrades?) and then going into swarmhost, but when do you start your infestation pit and how many swarmhost do you want to build overall? Then i guess the ultimate composition is to go toward Ultralisk, but ultralisk, viper, swarm host are all costing a lot of supply, how do you balance your late game composition between these unit?
On March 25 2013 08:32 wcLLg wrote: One of the ZvPs on Belshir is a ZvZ in the ZvP replay pack. Want more replays, depth.
You'll have more then enough replays this week, wednesday I plan on releasing a giant replay pack of all my zvt/zvp/zvz's .
On March 25 2013 08:49 thechasemenna wrote: I am a mid/high diamond player using these builds.
I have a small problem vs toss with the toss build you have on this. First off I would like to say I LOVE this zvp build and am pretty good at it, however, I find it somewhat difficult to deal with storms. I have the micro capabilities to deal with it just fine for the most part but either due to the mechanics of hydras I cannot seem to split them too well. By the mechanics I mean the fact that hydras make a "wall" of sorts which eat storms as well as their somewhat slow movement speed( as opposed to ling/rines/ other light units to split with). I was wondering if there was any other way that you deal with HTs other than splitting. I played a few practice games and tried taking 16-20 lings after a-moving into his army and sttempting to surround his HTs before they could storm, with no avail. Any othe suggestions you have for this dilemma?
Swarmhosts deal with storm so so well and with ultra makes it even easier. Try to not engage unless you have locusts going first or ultras (preferably both).
On March 25 2013 09:02 Vanadiel wrote: I'm quite curious about ZvT and the muta ling into swarmhost style, the general idea is to get mutalisk first to deal with drop (stop at ~12? Do you research any air upgrades?) and then going into swarmhost, but when do you start your infestation pit and how many swarmhost do you want to build overall? Then i guess the ultimate composition is to go toward Ultralisk, but ultralisk, viper, swarm host are all costing a lot of supply, how do you balance your late game composition between these unit?
I get 14-16 mutalisks then start hive + locust upgrade I get infestation pit once I get 14 mutalisks. I will be adding a zvt section with this build and I am now seeing korean zergs doing this (I know they didn't get this from me) so I am pretty sure they feel the same way I do that it's legit and strong vs bio + widow mine.
With late game I have 10-12 swarmhosts then ultra/ling/bane/infestor and if it doesn't kill him I will add in 5 broodlords as well.
low masters player here. I don't really feel comfortable with a 3rd hatch at 21 against toss. Im not good at defending the mothership core with 2 gateway unit attack on it. I also simply dont play well with such a macro oriented style from start. Do you feel 2 base initially and expand afterwards can be viable or are you defiantly behind if you don't 3 base against a FE protoss?
On March 25 2013 13:53 Fumble wrote: low masters player here. I don't really feel comfortable with a 3rd hatch at 21 against toss. Im not good at defending the mothership core with 2 gateway unit attack on it. I also simply dont play well with such a macro oriented style from start. Do you feel 2 base initially and expand afterwards can be viable or are you defiantly behind if you don't 3 base against a FE protoss?
Well if you don't play well from a macro oriented play style I would get used to it as it will only help you become a better player. If you don't do it you will never get good at it.
As for 2 base initially probably but you are putting yourself behind in economy for no reason (by behind I don't even mean behind like you are in a bad position, just you could be in such a better economic spot then if you start 2 base and go into a macro game).
Ok guys this is a little tease of what to expect in my replay pack coming this week.
This is a zvp replay of me vs a GM toss (ares is his name). Late game he gets voidray/colo/templar. How does Blade beat that composition!?!?!? Watch the replay.
I have NOT lost to this composition yet since beta :D
On March 25 2013 01:56 Henk wrote: I've been approaching protoss with 10-13 SH, some ling support, and hydras. However instead of going straight to ultras I get out vipers first, and then go into ultras. So I basically have a 100% SH hydra army until I get some vipers.
What are your thoughts on this? In your 'standard macro game' with SH vs protoss you don't seem to describe vipers at all. Why not? Should I just skip them all together? Should I just pump out more ultras? Thanks!
-Edit, forgot to clarify: I'm not getting corruptors, because I feel like they melt way too fast to VR, really. and once he has got an adequate number of colossi, they just kill everything before my corruptors kill them, and then afterwards I have a lot of useless supply, if he didn't use VR.
So I'm using vipers to pull colossi into my hydra/SH ball.
Mid/high Master level, btw. (Or at least - in WoL, I haven't played too much HotS, but I will get back there soon enough, going to play some more this week.)
Sorry for posting this again Blade, but I feel like you missed my post and I would really love an answer!