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Would like to share something I have been having success with in Masters in PvZ: I've been opening FFE into 2 stargate phoenix.I just open FFE double stargate and chrono out 10-12 Phoenixes. This ends up hitting zerg at about 10:45-11:30 which coindentally is right when their hydras start coming out, and 10-12 phoenixes are pretty good against that. ( i make no void rays or oracles until after I attack with the phoenix)
Anyway if they were making hydras I just keep making phoenix without teching to HT. (but i have to stay in their base and pick them off as they spawn or ill get overwhelmed) I get a robo and a twilight for blink and immortals and for tech path.
its not a "mass" phoenix build that ive been talking about, but 10-12 phoenixes at about the 11 minute mark in the game is really strong against zerg in my opinion. I've also toyed with fitting +1 air attack in their and hitting at about the same time, and it is very very effective.
if zerg goes hydras, hydra/roach , hydra/ling , muta, or any combination of these with swarm hosts, i keep going phoenix while i get air upgrades, expansions, mass cannon, and more stargate for carrier/void transition. if he makes corruptors, I stop phoenix completely and keep the 10-12 at his base to harass and away from the corruptors.
anyway the 10 phoenixes at 11 minutes is just great because you can pick off so many hydras right after you kill the first few queens. Even if Z makes 3 spores per base its still not quite enough.
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On April 23 2013 18:54 vhapter wrote:
I think the current MSC expand into double forge colossus + blink should be added to the OP. It's like Tail's DT drop build, but it includes double forge + twilight instead and a robo bay at the 7-minute mark. I've seeen several pro gamers using it (or variations of it) and it seems to be safe against all terran timings. Early observer scout, 3 stalkers + an obs to deal with drops at 7 minutes, sentries + photon overcharge and an early colossus to hold most pushes. When you get a healthy amount of blink stalkers you get a third, generally close to the 12 minute mark. Parting has just done this build, Tails does it all the time on the ladder, I saw it the other day in proleague, and Artosis/Tasteless has just said people should steal this build after seeing how solid it was (Parting vs Last, GLS).
How early did Parting get his two forges? Does he go robo bay before double forge or the other way around?
Also, what is the standard for double forge now in HOTS then? I used to hate Colossus but I find they're generally much better than going HT first because Terran makes vikings instead of a ton of medivacs which just outheal your templar anyway (it seems, if hes good.)
When is everyone getting their two forges? Are most people going blink/colossus now, blink/charge with templar transition (I read teoita say this isnt as popular anymore because of terran 3 base timings with scvs)
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What time(s) do DT's arrive at your base from a well-executed DT expand build? Currently working on a 3-Gate Stargate build, and I need to know when I need an Oracle at my base for detection.
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On April 25 2013 13:07 JSK wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 18:54 vhapter wrote:
I think the current MSC expand into double forge colossus + blink should be added to the OP. It's like Tail's DT drop build, but it includes double forge + twilight instead and a robo bay at the 7-minute mark. I've seeen several pro gamers using it (or variations of it) and it seems to be safe against all terran timings. Early observer scout, 3 stalkers + an obs to deal with drops at 7 minutes, sentries + photon overcharge and an early colossus to hold most pushes. When you get a healthy amount of blink stalkers you get a third, generally close to the 12 minute mark. Parting has just done this build, Tails does it all the time on the ladder, I saw it the other day in proleague, and Artosis/Tasteless has just said people should steal this build after seeing how solid it was (Parting vs Last, GLS). How early did Parting get his two forges? Does he go robo bay before double forge or the other way around? Also, what is the standard for double forge now in HOTS then? I used to hate Colossus but I find they're generally much better than going HT first because Terran makes vikings instead of a ton of medivacs which just outheal your templar anyway (it seems, if hes good.) When is everyone getting their two forges? Are most people going blink/colossus now, blink/charge with templar transition (I read teoita say this isnt as popular anymore because of terran 3 base timings with scvs)
It just so happens that I took some notes on the parting vs last game that he is referring to.
a quick sketch of the build--
13 gate/scout
15 gas
18 cyber
nexus asap (you can start a zealot and cancel it if you get scouted by an scv)
first 100 gas on MSC, then WG, gas 2, pylon, stalker
robotics @ 100 gas
~30 gate, sentry, forge, sentry
observer x2, poke w/ stalker
+1 armor,2 gas at nat
~7:45 robo bay, forge 2, obs 3
TC about when robo bay 50% done, add a third gateway
colossus, blink, frange, gates 4+5 (~9:45)
build about 10 stalkers and put them on a separate hotkey so you can be active w/ them on the map.
charge after blink, secure third when possible, templar archives, defensive cannons
add 3-4 gates
it seems that with this style you rely on the stalker poke to get an idea of what the terran is up to. poking with MSC on a 2p map is probably a good idea if you just see a bunker/expo at the nat because you want to know if there's gonna be a widow mine drop or just standard 3 rax/stim play (and occasionally you might scout fast 3CC, in which case you can either try to immortal all in or go double forge and expand immediately off hardly any units, depending on the map of course)
observer spread is probably the most important part of this strategy, it allows you to know where his army is, when/where drops are coming in, and scout his tech/3rd base timing.
constant colossus production (maybe not if they go 2starport fairly quickly)
parting adds in archons ~15 mins before getting storm because he's kept the viking count pretty low and just needs to tank the main bio army.
another thing to note is that it is perfectly viable to just get one or two colossus without range and then switch right into templar/charge. On the maps where it's really hard to take a third base or if you're afraid of terran doing a viking +scv pull timing then this should be better. Ultimately the decision is stylistic though, and they are both used frequently at the pro level.
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On April 25 2013 03:26 Kinon wrote:
I have 3 questions regarding PvZ.
1) Is it safe opening nexus first against 14 pool on any map?
2) What to do If I go for ffe-->robo, and scout 2 base spire?
3) My usual build is ffe-->stargate, making a stalker just after I put down the stargate. Most zergs send 4-6 lings in my natural, and 2-3 make it inside and wreak havoc on my macro. Should I put a probe on hold until the stalker is out, or is that too much wasted minerals?
Any opinions on this?
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1) Is it safe opening nexus first against 14 pool on any map?
Yes, but you will have to block off your ramp entirely if they immediately send lings to your base. AFAIK you can do that on any map, as long as you make sure your wall is correct.
On April 25 2013 03:26 Kinon wrote:
2) What to do If I go for ffe-->robo, and scout 2 base spire?
In my opinion, if you scout 2 base (which you should always scout), don't go Robo.
On April 25 2013 03:26 Kinon wrote:3) My usual build is ffe-->stargate, making a stalker just after I put down the stargate. Most zergs send 4-6 lings in my natural, and 2-3 make it inside and wreak havoc on my macro. Should I put a probe on hold until the stalker is out, or is that too much wasted minerals?
Just get a Zealot and keep a Probe on hold position untill it's out. Zealots are useful in early game PvZ.
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In my opinion, if you scout 2 base (which you should always scout), don't go Robo.
What if the zerg goes for 2 base roach, or ling all-in? Isn't it better to have a robo in this case?[/QUOTE]
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When protoss is opening 2 base colossus, how to react/defend to the following push from terran?
10-min 2 medivac push/poke, following up by pulling 20 SCV as tank and 4-6 vikings in 2 mins after?
FWIW, the terran had his 3rd CC up, but not yet saturated.
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Italy12246 Posts
You can spot widow mines burrowed in the ground if you pay attention. Other than that i have never done that build so i can't comment too much on it.
As far as gas goes though, why can't you just adjust your gas timings (ie take one gas at the natural faster for instance) to afford 1-2 observers?
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On April 25 2013 13:07 JSK wrote:
When is everyone getting their two forges? Are most people going blink/colossus now, blink/charge with templar transition (I read teoita say this isnt as popular anymore because of terran 3 base timings with scvs)
I get my forges at around ~7:20 and my robo bay at ~8:00. Twilight council will start at ~50% progress of +1/+1. I try to get my 3rd at ~12:00, but sometimes even later. I want to be safe against drops before taking my 3rd.
Also, I get blink & colossi first and then transition into chargelot/archon but I continue my colossus production (like Rain does) instead of building immortals. I usually delay storm because of the SCV pulls or potential hellbat transitions. You just have more firepower in your army with early archons and fast +3/+3. I build my templar archives when my 3rd colossus starts.
I have a lot of success with this style against bio-heavy play.
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On April 25 2013 17:35 Kinon wrote:Show nested quote +
In my opinion, if you scout 2 base (which you should always scout), don't go Robo.
What if the zerg goes for 2 base roach, or ling all-in? Isn't it better to have a robo in this case?
I don't think it should matter much. I don't know if you have acces, but Parting faced a 2 base opening from Leenock in GSL couple of days ago. Leenock didn't do a Roach/ling allin or 2 base muta, but we can still look at what Partings response to not scouting a third was. He got a second cannon, made 2 gases on natural quite early, got a MSC + Sentry asap and went into Stargate. I don't think Roach/Ling should do anything if you have 2 cannons, MSC and Sentries, and the option to Chrono out a Void Ray.
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Italy12246 Posts
On April 25 2013 18:08 Bahamuth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2013 17:35 Kinon wrote:
In my opinion, if you scout 2 base (which you should always scout), don't go Robo.
What if the zerg goes for 2 base roach, or ling all-in? Isn't it better to have a robo in this case? I don't think it should matter much. I don't know if you have acces, but Parting faced a 2 base opening from Leenock in GSL couple of days ago. Leenock didn't do a Roach/ling allin or 2 base muta, but we can still look at what Partings response to not scouting a third was. He got a second cannon, made 2 gases on natural quite early, got a MSC + Sentry asap and went into Stargate. I don't think Roach/Ling should do anything if you have 2 cannons, MSC and Sentries, and the option to Chrono out a Void Ray.
You can hold a 2base roach allin with pretty much any build FFE followup, but stargate is commonly accepted as the best since once the void ray is out any attack is outright shut down.
On April 25 2013 18:09 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2013 17:54 Teoita wrote:
You can spot widow mines burrowed in the ground if you pay attention. Other than that i have never done that build so i can't comment too much on it.
As far as gas goes though, why can't you just adjust your gas timings (ie take one gas at the natural faster for instance) to afford 1-2 observers? The gas thing is a problem much earlier than that. I'm expanding at the same time as I would with the Immortal build that I posted, so taking the gases at the natural earlier isn't an option. The more I think about it, cutting the Sentry seems the most sensible option. I guess I could mess around with double Assimilator openings as well, just to try and get out a little bit more extra gas. I don't expect anyone to have tried the build I'm doing before. It's quite different to the Nexus first variation. Nexus first isn't safe, is it? I've not seen anyone doing it, anyway.
I'm not sure about nexus first, but yeah it's definitely not a build you of all people would do. In your spot yeah you should just try double gas and see how that works out. MC at MLG went double gas and put 3probes asap on each, and went 1gate-stargate-nexus at like 40 supply. May want to take a look at his opening to have a few ideas.
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if a zerg 3rd isnt starting to build by what time can you be confident they are 2 basing?
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Italy12246 Posts
If they open gassless their third hatch should go down at 4:50 at the latest. Add about 60-90 seconds if they go for some ling speed opening.
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Austria24422 Posts
On April 25 2013 21:25 Teoita wrote:
If they open gassless their third hatch should go down at 4:50 at the latest. Add about 60-90 seconds if they go for some ling speed opening.
I saw HerO add cannons the longer he doesn't scout a third. Is there a certain timer for this? Like "add an extra cannon every X seconds" ? Was a few months ago on stream so I'd never find it again.
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Italy12246 Posts
Not that i'm aware of, i get a second one after my core when i can afford to if i scout a gas opening and then i get more if a bust is coming.
I scout 2base bust vs 2base tech by chronoing 2 zealots and poking with them (2 zealots should be enough to clear his initial batch of potential speedlings while one zealot won't).
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EPT
