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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders. |
On April 25 2013 21:27 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2013 21:25 Teoita wrote:
If they open gassless their third hatch should go down at 4:50 at the latest. Add about 60-90 seconds if they go for some ling speed opening. I saw HerO add cannons the longer he doesn't scout a third. Is there a certain timer for this? Like "add an extra cannon every X seconds" ? Was a few months ago on stream so I'd never find it again.
I think you really have to try and figure out what they are doing if they are 2 basing. Cannons at the front + sentry are great if its ling bling or roach bust. If its swarmhost cannons are good but sentrys arent really. If its 2 base muta cannons at the front are nearly worthless
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I haven't faced this, but my friend uses terran mech (hellbat/tank/thor):
http://day9.tv/d/Day9/day9-daily-575-mech-vs-protoss/
How would you counter that as protoss?
edit: I am sorry if this post was offensive. I meant it as a legitimate question. What rule did I break?
My first though is archon/immortal.... but I watched my friend beat that down.
User was warned for this post
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On April 25 2013 23:55 LegionSC2 wrote:I haven't faced this, but my friend uses terran mech (hellbat/tank/thor): http://day9.tv/d/Day9/day9-daily-575-mech-vs-protoss/How would you counter that as protoss? edit: I am sorry if this post was offensive. I meant it as a legitimate question. What rule did I break? My first though is archon/immortal.... but I watched my friend beat that down. User was warned for this post
only reason why you got warned was because the answer is on the first page FAQ.
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Italy12247 Posts
Mod action always comes with a PM explaining the reasons 
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On April 26 2013 00:49 SkyBlaze wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2013 23:55 LegionSC2 wrote:I haven't faced this, but my friend uses terran mech (hellbat/tank/thor): http://day9.tv/d/Day9/day9-daily-575-mech-vs-protoss/How would you counter that as protoss? edit: I am sorry if this post was offensive. I meant it as a legitimate question. What rule did I break? My first though is archon/immortal.... but I watched my friend beat that down. User was warned for this post only reason why you got warned was because the answer is on the first page FAQ.
Holy cow, how did I miss that. Apologies.
edit: Can a mod delete my last post and this one so it doesn't pollute up the thread? Thank you.
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So I faced this two-pronged marine/mine aggression today. Widow Mine drops I can handle, and attacks on the front I can handle, but I just don't have enough units to cover both locations at once, it seems.
Here's a replay:
http://drop.sc/327395
It seems pretty clear that any mistakes after the Marine/Widow Mine aggression are fairly immaterial, and that I'd lost the game after the amount of economic damage I took.
I've already given up my PvP problem as never getting solved, but PvT is the matchup I'm supposed to be GOOD at. Please, I beg someone skilled to look at this replay.
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On April 26 2013 01:28 Salivanth wrote:So I faced this two-pronged marine/mine aggression today. Widow Mine drops I can handle, and attacks on the front I can handle, but I just don't have enough units to cover both locations at once, it seems. Here's a replay: http://drop.sc/327395It seems pretty clear that any mistakes after the Marine/Widow Mine aggression are fairly immaterial, and that I'd lost the game after the amount of economic damage I took. I've already given up my PvP problem as never getting solved, but PvT is the matchup I'm supposed to be GOOD at. Please, I beg someone skilled to look at this replay.
Keep half your army in your natural and half in your main, with your MSC in between. Photon overcharge whichever side needs more help. Your goal is just to minimize damage - run probes away, try not to run stalkers into widow mines, etc. With the nexus cannon and reinforcement warp-ins you'll have enough to clean up and if you lose some mining time, a few probes, and a stalker or so you still come out ahead.
It takes a lot of micro and multitasking but there's nothing else you can do.
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On April 24 2013 19:55 Salivanth wrote:I'm not sure how to deal with 3-Gate Stargate with 1-Gate FE. Here's a replay of me trying a Nexus cancel, and I try expanding off the back of a bunch of units from 3-Gate Robo instead. http://drop.sc/326797In this replay, everything pretty much goes perfectly and I still lose. My opponent loses TWO Oracles for nothing, I scout the 3-Gate Stargate, and I am able to cancel the Nexus. So, my own analysis is that after making a couple rounds of units, I had to expand. If I didn't, my opponent would simply back off and expand himself, and I'd be behind. I figured he would all-in against an expansion, but he wouldn't try to push up my ramp. In the end, my army composition is superior, but I lose the engagement because my micro sucks. (I practiced it against a practice partner, and he won 5-0, including the time he took control of my army and I took control of the opponent's.) However, this was an absolutely brilliant game before the engagement sfor me. I'm not going to get that every time. And of course, I'm still unsure if my response/macro was off.
So, I tried some things, and they didn't work. I tried finding some replays of 1-Gate FE holding 3-Gate Stargate and couldn't find them. I even tried 3-Gate Stargating myself, but I just can't do it. I'm just not an offensive player, I'm awful at attacking. So I figured I'd give this question one last shot. If it doesn't get a reply this time, I'll leave it be, but is there a reason it hasn't gotten any replies? Have I formatted the question wrong, or not analysed the replay enough? Or was I just unlucky?
I'm sorry to post this yet again, but I really have honestly tried to solve this problem myself.
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How worthwhile is it in PvT to start mixing tempest/carrier once you get your 4th or 5th up? Tempests to pick off ghosts/vikings/medivacs (just a few) and to force more vikings while de-emphasising colossi for archon/storm?
If I scout marine/(fewer marauders)/hellbat in the midgame, I've been going more blink/colossi heavy and delaying storm and using WP/DT/Zealot harass as a mineral dump, rather than building lots of zealots in my army, is this the right call? or should I still keep a low stalker count and just go for more archons?
Also, what are a few effective ways to harass PvP midgame ? MSC/warpins seem to make warpprism harass much less effective than PvZ/T.
And finally - I've been getting a templar archives when I take my third in PvP, it it worthwhile to get 1-2 temps + storm assuming I'm facing no aggression if they are not building voids? Or is storm pretty much useless in robo/archon late game battles?
edit: Also, I've asked this before, but has anyone (high level) been toying around with a gas first opening, in order to get stalker/msc/wg right as your cyper finishes without having to spend the extra minerals on gas 2? I know one of you guys said its not worthwhile but I've seen decent results with it.
edit2: When do i build immortals vs bio? I'll make them vs mech and vs 1/1/1 or bio/tank pushes but vs straight up MMM they seem pretty useless in comparison to colossi/temp
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On April 26 2013 03:50 Salivanth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 19:55 Salivanth wrote:I'm not sure how to deal with 3-Gate Stargate with 1-Gate FE. Here's a replay of me trying a Nexus cancel, and I try expanding off the back of a bunch of units from 3-Gate Robo instead. http://drop.sc/326797In this replay, everything pretty much goes perfectly and I still lose. My opponent loses TWO Oracles for nothing, I scout the 3-Gate Stargate, and I am able to cancel the Nexus. So, my own analysis is that after making a couple rounds of units, I had to expand. If I didn't, my opponent would simply back off and expand himself, and I'd be behind. I figured he would all-in against an expansion, but he wouldn't try to push up my ramp. In the end, my army composition is superior, but I lose the engagement because my micro sucks. (I practiced it against a practice partner, and he won 5-0, including the time he took control of my army and I took control of the opponent's.) However, this was an absolutely brilliant game before the engagement sfor me. I'm not going to get that every time. And of course, I'm still unsure if my response/macro was off. So, I tried some things, and they didn't work. I tried finding some replays of 1-Gate FE holding 3-Gate Stargate and couldn't find them. I even tried 3-Gate Stargating myself, but I just can't do it. I'm just not an offensive player, I'm awful at attacking. So I figured I'd give this question one last shot. If it doesn't get a reply this time, I'll leave it be, but is there a reason it hasn't gotten any replies? Have I formatted the question wrong, or not analysed the replay enough? Or was I just unlucky? I'm sorry to post this yet again, but I really have honestly tried to solve this problem myself.
You don't need to cancel your nexus if you are able to scout it. The only reason why stargate 3 gate is good against 1 gate FE is if you don't know it's coming, you normally make heavy sentry + immortal when you 1 gate FE to defend against gateway pressure. But if you were able to scout it, then you can make the appropriate units to counter like you did - mostly stalker with few sentries, and you shouldn't cancel your nexus.
Like you said, you lost due to micro. Part of micro is simply positioning your army in a nice concave prior the battle, and not in a clump off to the side like you did. Optimally you would want to have your army right on top of the ramp, and use forcefields as he comes up the ramp (however you wasted all sentry energy on hallucinations instead - if you have a robo and he has no detection, why not use an obs? then you'll have a lot of sentry energy for forcefields). Also you could have used a time warp which would have helped a lot. Void/zealot counter pure stalkers pretty hard, with no/poor micro on both sides it counters it even harder.
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rsvp, so then do you think 1 Gate expo is the go-to build these days? 1 base SG play just seems really strong, and I find that when I use it, or when I go against it, I'm almost always forced to use the Nexus Overcharge in order to just keep it safe against the 2 or 3 Phoenix fighting it/lifting Sentries. Unless you're advocating an extreme Probe cut and sort of just playing 400~ minerals down or thinking of it as a sort of big Photon Cannon that you can mine from eventually.
I guess what it boils down to, is that, can you get enough Stalkers to be safe from Phoenix lifting/killing key units, and can you get enough DPS in order to kill the Zealots/Stalkers the opponent will throw at you? And how do both those things happen together.
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On April 26 2013 12:19 Supah wrote:
rsvp, so then do you think 1 Gate expo is the go-to build these days? 1 base SG play just seems really strong, and I find that when I use it, or when I go against it, I'm almost always forced to use the Nexus Overcharge in order to just keep it safe against the 2 or 3 Phoenix fighting it/lifting Sentries. Unless you're advocating an extreme Probe cut and sort of just playing 400~ minerals down or thinking of it as a sort of big Photon Cannon that you can mine from eventually.
I guess what it boils down to, is that, can you get enough Stalkers to be safe from Phoenix lifting/killing key units, and can you get enough DPS in order to kill the Zealots/Stalkers the opponent will throw at you? And how do both those things happen together.
There really isn't a go-to build in PvP. 1 gate FE is becoming increasingly popular, and while I think 1 base SG still has an edge over 1 gate FE I've seen 1 gate FE successfully defend against it more and more frequently. It's really all just comes down to micro.
You should not have to use your nexus overcharge against only phoenix - you should have at least a stalker and 2 sentries when the first 1-2 phoenix comes, and by the time the 3rd phoenix arrives you should have gateway warp-ins. If you are forced to use the nexus overcharge against the first few phoenixes then you need to revise your build to get out a few more gateway units earlier (or just position your units better - at the ramp between main + natural, with MSC on top of your units). The nexus overcharge should only be used when the phoenix is accompanied by gateway units.
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Before i do something really stupid has anyone messed around with dual immortal drops in PvT preferably off a 1 gate fe, i know this is probably more than suboptimal i just want to have fun in this match up again ;D
Would be nice if someone could tell me whether this can be successful in mid masters ^^
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On April 26 2013 10:51 rsvp wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2013 03:50 Salivanth wrote:On April 24 2013 19:55 Salivanth wrote:I'm not sure how to deal with 3-Gate Stargate with 1-Gate FE. Here's a replay of me trying a Nexus cancel, and I try expanding off the back of a bunch of units from 3-Gate Robo instead. http://drop.sc/326797In this replay, everything pretty much goes perfectly and I still lose. My opponent loses TWO Oracles for nothing, I scout the 3-Gate Stargate, and I am able to cancel the Nexus. So, my own analysis is that after making a couple rounds of units, I had to expand. If I didn't, my opponent would simply back off and expand himself, and I'd be behind. I figured he would all-in against an expansion, but he wouldn't try to push up my ramp. In the end, my army composition is superior, but I lose the engagement because my micro sucks. (I practiced it against a practice partner, and he won 5-0, including the time he took control of my army and I took control of the opponent's.) However, this was an absolutely brilliant game before the engagement sfor me. I'm not going to get that every time. And of course, I'm still unsure if my response/macro was off. So, I tried some things, and they didn't work. I tried finding some replays of 1-Gate FE holding 3-Gate Stargate and couldn't find them. I even tried 3-Gate Stargating myself, but I just can't do it. I'm just not an offensive player, I'm awful at attacking. So I figured I'd give this question one last shot. If it doesn't get a reply this time, I'll leave it be, but is there a reason it hasn't gotten any replies? Have I formatted the question wrong, or not analysed the replay enough? Or was I just unlucky? I'm sorry to post this yet again, but I really have honestly tried to solve this problem myself. You don't need to cancel your nexus if you are able to scout it. The only reason why stargate 3 gate is good against 1 gate FE is if you don't know it's coming, you normally make heavy sentry + immortal when you 1 gate FE to defend against gateway pressure. But if you were able to scout it, then you can make the appropriate units to counter like you did - mostly stalker with few sentries, and you shouldn't cancel your nexus. Like you said, you lost due to micro. Part of micro is simply positioning your army in a nice concave prior the battle, and not in a clump off to the side like you did. Optimally you would want to have your army right on top of the ramp, and use forcefields as he comes up the ramp (however you wasted all sentry energy on hallucinations instead - if you have a robo and he has no detection, why not use an obs? then you'll have a lot of sentry energy for forcefields). Also you could have used a time warp which would have helped a lot. Void/zealot counter pure stalkers pretty hard, with no/poor micro on both sides it counters it even harder.
Thanks so much. Do you know where I can find a replay or VOD of this happening? I'm going to get a practice partner tonight if he's on and have him beat the crap out of me with 3-Gate Stargate until I can finally hold it off. Some more in-depth questions:
Once I've expanded, when should I cut probes? It seems pretty obvious that having say, 40 probes against a 1-basing opponent isn't a good idea.
On that amount of probes, how many production facilities should I have? Should I be sticking with 3 gates and a robo, or getting more gates?
If my opponent is going Zealot-heavy like he did in the replay instead of the more Stalker-heavy army composition I usually see, how should I adjust my composition? Stalker-heavy seems rather easy to counter: Lots of Immortals, Stalkers, and a handful of Sentries. But as you said, Void/Zealot counters Stalkers pretty hard.
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On April 26 2013 14:11 Sox03 wrote:
Before i do something really stupid has anyone messed around with dual immortal drops in PvT preferably off a 1 gate fe, i know this is probably more than suboptimal i just want to have fun in this match up again ;D
Would be nice if someone could tell me whether this can be successful in mid masters ^^
People have used Speed-Prism Colossus drops in the past. That sounds extremely fun and WTF-inducing, and there's precedent for it. Maybe it's worth trying that!
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Yeah Colossi drops are really fun i do that sometimes but i would prefer immortals for some reason please don't ask me why haha
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Ah. Well, sorry, can't help you there  Good luck!
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On April 26 2013 14:11 Sox03 wrote:
Before i do something really stupid has anyone messed around with dual immortal drops in PvT preferably off a 1 gate fe, i know this is probably more than suboptimal i just want to have fun in this match up again ;D
Would be nice if someone could tell me whether this can be successful in mid masters ^^
I do a 1 base build where I get a proxy robo as soon as my core is done. Make a warp prism, immortal, rally 2 stalkers to it, then drop an immortal 2 stalkers and warp in off 3 gates. Keeping making immortals and ferrying them over, get obs if they get mines. Works against 1rax FE pretty well. They think you're going to proxy oracle so they waste money on e-bay + turret too. Since you can't bring too many units with you for the drop and don't really want to attack the front, I get the robo literally as fast as possible so the drop hits while I've got 2 stalkers and a little bit of excess(but can go up to 3-4 gates to warp in units off of)
Edit: Not exactly what you're asking about obviously, since what I'm using is an all-in.
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EPT
