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On April 25 2013 21:33 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2013 17:00 Bahamuth wrote:On April 25 2013 03:26 Kinon wrote:
2) What to do If I go for ffe-->robo, and scout 2 base spire? In my opinion, if you scout 2 base (which you should always scout), don't go Robo. This is actually really bad advice. There are plenty of 2 Base builds that a Zerg can do where a Robotics Facility is mandatory, and they're greater in number than the single build a Robotics Facility is "bad" against (2 Base Spire). If they were to go 2 Base Swarm Host, for example, you absolutely need a Robotics Facility before you can even think about fending that off in an efficient manner. Hell, the Robotics Facility isn't even that bad against 2 Base Spire because Observers can be used to spot for Mutalisk pokes, giving you ample time to get your units in place to defend. It's important that you don't panic, because the Zerg can't exactly make a massive swarm of Mutalisks from only 4 Extractors worth of gas. This means that Photon Overcharge at your main base and units at your natural should be more than enough to fend off major damage whilst you wait for Phoenixes to come out. Once you have enough Phoenixes to fend off their Mutalisks, take a third base and tech towards either Storm or Colossi so you have AoE to deal with Zerglings (Muta/Ling) or a transition to Hydralisks/Roaches/Swarm Hosts. Storm is probably better because that will be useful against dedicated Mutalisk/Corruptor builds. 2 Base Spire shouldn't be that scary if you're diligent with your scouting and you have a tight build...
But what is stargate bad against that isn't SH? And against SH you can still wear them down. It hits at a relatively late time and you definitely have the time to get out colossus if you scout diligently. In fact I believe against 2 base zerg, I would put stargate as the tech of choice.
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Italy12246 Posts
Stargate is a bit worse vs things like hydra allins, and arguably it's a bit harder to scout than with a obs (assuming the z doesnt get spores blindly).
Honestly it's a matter of personal preference. Rsvp is a fan of robo, i'm a fan of stargate, so eh. Play with both and see what you feel most comfortable with.
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On April 26 2013 18:23 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2013 14:11 Sox03 wrote:
Before i do something really stupid has anyone messed around with dual immortal drops in PvT preferably off a 1 gate fe, i know this is probably more than suboptimal i just want to have fun in this match up again ;D
Would be nice if someone could tell me whether this can be successful in mid masters ^^
I posted this on the previous page... 1 Gate Robo Expand Into Speed Prism Colossus Drop: http://drop.sc/327244Maybe you can modify it into some sort of Immortal play? I love Speed Prism drops in the early game, and they're less risky now that we have Photon Overcharge to help defend any early Stim or Combat Shield pressure from the Terran.
Thanks, i guess i will use some of this i think ressource and timing wise this should line up pretty nicely.
I will watch the replay later i read through the previous post and guide 
Maybe i post some results tonight haha
I hope this style will fit my playstyle better because PvT was always my worst match up and i did not like the protoss roll at all this should be challenging and fun ^^
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On April 26 2013 18:31 etherealfall wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2013 21:33 Sated wrote:On April 25 2013 17:00 Bahamuth wrote:On April 25 2013 03:26 Kinon wrote:
2) What to do If I go for ffe-->robo, and scout 2 base spire? In my opinion, if you scout 2 base (which you should always scout), don't go Robo. This is actually really bad advice. There are plenty of 2 Base builds that a Zerg can do where a Robotics Facility is mandatory, and they're greater in number than the single build a Robotics Facility is "bad" against (2 Base Spire). If they were to go 2 Base Swarm Host, for example, you absolutely need a Robotics Facility before you can even think about fending that off in an efficient manner. Hell, the Robotics Facility isn't even that bad against 2 Base Spire because Observers can be used to spot for Mutalisk pokes, giving you ample time to get your units in place to defend. It's important that you don't panic, because the Zerg can't exactly make a massive swarm of Mutalisks from only 4 Extractors worth of gas. This means that Photon Overcharge at your main base and units at your natural should be more than enough to fend off major damage whilst you wait for Phoenixes to come out. Once you have enough Phoenixes to fend off their Mutalisks, take a third base and tech towards either Storm or Colossi so you have AoE to deal with Zerglings (Muta/Ling) or a transition to Hydralisks/Roaches/Swarm Hosts. Storm is probably better because that will be useful against dedicated Mutalisk/Corruptor builds. 2 Base Spire shouldn't be that scary if you're diligent with your scouting and you have a tight build... But what is stargate bad against that isn't SH? And against SH you can still wear them down. It hits at a relatively late time and you definitely have the time to get out colossus if you scout diligently. In fact I believe against 2 base zerg, I would put stargate as the tech of choice.
I should have been more elaborate. I didn't mean to not get a Robo ever, but to get Stargate before Robo. I think going Robo first has an advantage against Swarm Hosts and Stargate has an advantage against Spire. However, Stargate->Robo is completely fine to beat SH, while if you react with Stargate to a 2 base Spire, you make things pretty difficult for yourself. I know it can be done, but its difficult to not lose too many probes in the process.
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Goldie here. I often scout zergs going hatch first and I go forge first. In this case I should cannon rush them, theoretically I know that but how should I execute? Should I wait for hatch to finish? If I cannon right away they cancel and take the 3rd, in this case I don't know who is behind and how should I respond.
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Italy12246 Posts
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On the talk about PvZ going robo or stargate first. why did'nt anyone bring up Twilight into robo builds. I think it's a good middle ground even if blink stalkers vs mutas aren't very good, at the very least they can hold off small numbers of mutas for you to get a thrid while getting stargates. The only problem that blink stalkers have is early hydras and 2 base swarmhost timings which are holdable with good scouting. This is the style I've personally been doing, works pretty good at putting pressure on zergs while still being to hold most attacks pretty while with good micro. The biggest plus of this build is early upgrades.
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To add:
- Your scouting probe should start making a pylon wall as demonstrated in teoita's link
- Bring a second probe
- If the zerg notices and is chasing your probe that makes that first pylon with a drone, complete the pylon wall which requires 2 or 3 pylons, and wall your probe in
- If zerg responds by pulling a bunch of drones to try to break down your wall, let all the pylons finish and start a cannon that will be walled in. Also look for any opportunities to wall in the drones that are attacking the pylon wall with your 2nd probe so that they can't escape once the cannon completes. If the zerg does not pull additional drones to help, cancel the additional pylons so that you only have 1 pylon and 1 cannon warping in. Keep your probe there so that if he does pull drones you can remake the pylon wall.
- If the zerg lets the hatch finish, use your 2nd probe to make 2-3 additional cannons. If the zerg cancels, start scouting the 3rd and additional bases and see if it's possible to cannon those as well in the same manner (most likely you won't be able to, but doesn't hurt too much to try). Let your 1 pylon and 1 cannon in his natural stay. Also make sure to scout your own base and outside it for proxy hatches.
- Proceed to a normal game. If he cancels his nat and takes his expo at his 3rd, neither of you are significantly ahead or behind.
http://drop.sc/327665 - here's an example that I just played. Note how I only build 1 pylon at first, and wait until I see a drone coming before building the other 2 to finish the wall off. This is so that I don't have to waste money on 2 useless pylons if he ignores it and just cancels the hatch.
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On April 25 2013 15:25 Erik.TheRed wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2013 13:07 JSK wrote:On April 23 2013 18:54 vhapter wrote:
I think the current MSC expand into double forge colossus + blink should be added to the OP. It's like Tail's DT drop build, but it includes double forge + twilight instead and a robo bay at the 7-minute mark. I've seeen several pro gamers using it (or variations of it) and it seems to be safe against all terran timings. Early observer scout, 3 stalkers + an obs to deal with drops at 7 minutes, sentries + photon overcharge and an early colossus to hold most pushes. When you get a healthy amount of blink stalkers you get a third, generally close to the 12 minute mark. Parting has just done this build, Tails does it all the time on the ladder, I saw it the other day in proleague, and Artosis/Tasteless has just said people should steal this build after seeing how solid it was (Parting vs Last, GLS). How early did Parting get his two forges? Does he go robo bay before double forge or the other way around? Also, what is the standard for double forge now in HOTS then? I used to hate Colossus but I find they're generally much better than going HT first because Terran makes vikings instead of a ton of medivacs which just outheal your templar anyway (it seems, if hes good.) When is everyone getting their two forges? Are most people going blink/colossus now, blink/charge with templar transition (I read teoita say this isnt as popular anymore because of terran 3 base timings with scvs) It just so happens that I took some notes on the parting vs last game that he is referring to. a quick sketch of the build-- 13 gate/scout 15 gas 18 cyber nexus asap (you can start a zealot and cancel it if you get scouted by an scv) first 100 gas on MSC, then WG, gas 2, pylon, stalker robotics @ 100 gas ~30 gate, sentry, forge, sentry observer x2, poke w/ stalker +1 armor,2 gas at nat ~7:45 robo bay, forge 2, obs 3 TC about when robo bay 50% done, add a third gateway colossus, blink, frange, gates 4+5 (~9:45) build about 10 stalkers and put them on a separate hotkey so you can be active w/ them on the map. charge after blink, secure third when possible, templar archives, defensive cannons add 3-4 gates it seems that with this style you rely on the stalker poke to get an idea of what the terran is up to. poking with MSC on a 2p map is probably a good idea if you just see a bunker/expo at the nat because you want to know if there's gonna be a widow mine drop or just standard 3 rax/stim play (and occasionally you might scout fast 3CC, in which case you can either try to immortal all in or go double forge and expand immediately off hardly any units, depending on the map of course) observer spread is probably the most important part of this strategy, it allows you to know where his army is, when/where drops are coming in, and scout his tech/3rd base timing. constant colossus production (maybe not if they go 2starport fairly quickly) parting adds in archons ~15 mins before getting storm because he's kept the viking count pretty low and just needs to tank the main bio army. another thing to note is that it is perfectly viable to just get one or two colossus without range and then switch right into templar/charge. On the maps where it's really hard to take a third base or if you're afraid of terran doing a viking +scv pull timing then this should be better. Ultimately the decision is stylistic though, and they are both used frequently at the pro level.
Can you or anyone else link a replay to a game doing this build? It's exactly what i've been looking for and idk exactly how it works in game 
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What are my options if i want a 8/9 minute 3th in PvZ? I open stargate and i want to keep doing this, but should i also get 4 gates + gas up before i expand? It feels like i just don't have enough money but my timings might be off ;(
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On April 27 2013 01:53 Nipje wrote:
What are my options if i want a 8/9 minute 3th in PvZ? I open stargate and i want to keep doing this, but should i also get 4 gates + gas up before i expand? It feels like i just don't have enough money but my timings might be off ;(
You generally don't take a 8 minute 3rd against Zerg unless they're being super greedy. The point is that Zerg doesn't have enough units to pressure your third, so you can defend with just a MSC and a handful of units.
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On April 27 2013 02:11 accaris wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2013 01:53 Nipje wrote:
What are my options if i want a 8/9 minute 3th in PvZ? I open stargate and i want to keep doing this, but should i also get 4 gates + gas up before i expand? It feels like i just don't have enough money but my timings might be off ;( You generally don't take a 8 minute 3rd against Zerg unless they're being super greedy. The point is that Zerg doesn't have enough units to pressure your third, so you can defend with just a MSC and a handful of units.
I hear a lot of people say that you really should get a 8/9 min 3th ;O
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Italy12246 Posts
Yeah that's bad/unprecise advice.
Generally you can (for the most part) take your third with a 1-2 rounds of gateway units and maybe an immortal or two if you see he's producing roaches, which for many builds is at the 9ish minute mark.
A general build you can follow is to go stargate->4gate->robo, tech to colo and make 1 immortal while taking a third, go up to 6gates and react to what he's doing. This can delay your third a bit compared to a pure robo expand because obviously you also invest in stargate tech, but 9minutes is a good goal to go for.
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Were can i get replays of creator or Rain?
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Italy12246 Posts
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PvZ 8 minute thirds are possible with just stargate or just robo. If you open stargate you'll have to make voids instead of phoenix though and use them defensively in order to safely get the 8 minute third. You don't need the additional gates/warpgates that early though if you go the void route. If you open robo you will need the gateways for sentries/zealots.
The stargate 4 gate robo is popular too, and generally you open phoenix for harass and scouting and then you can take your 3rd around 9-10 minutes.
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Is 17 Nexus 17 Forge 17 Pylon 17 Gateway 18 Cannon supposed to be always safe against 14 pool? The cannon timing seems way too close to when lings arrive if the zerg does send them to my base. Is it really worth it to go for this build, even if I have to pylon block my wall in case lings come in? I even ask myself if microing my probes is safe to do if I have a bit of delay because if I mess it up slightly my forge may go up later than ideal and therefore delay my cannon even more.
So should I really go for 17 Nexus? Are 15 and 16 Nexus outdated builds and not included in the PvZ guide for some reason?
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On April 27 2013 00:34 aldochillbro wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2013 15:25 Erik.TheRed wrote:On April 25 2013 13:07 JSK wrote:On April 23 2013 18:54 vhapter wrote:
I think the current MSC expand into double forge colossus + blink should be added to the OP. It's like Tail's DT drop build, but it includes double forge + twilight instead and a robo bay at the 7-minute mark. I've seeen several pro gamers using it (or variations of it) and it seems to be safe against all terran timings. Early observer scout, 3 stalkers + an obs to deal with drops at 7 minutes, sentries + photon overcharge and an early colossus to hold most pushes. When you get a healthy amount of blink stalkers you get a third, generally close to the 12 minute mark. Parting has just done this build, Tails does it all the time on the ladder, I saw it the other day in proleague, and Artosis/Tasteless has just said people should steal this build after seeing how solid it was (Parting vs Last, GLS). How early did Parting get his two forges? Does he go robo bay before double forge or the other way around? Also, what is the standard for double forge now in HOTS then? I used to hate Colossus but I find they're generally much better than going HT first because Terran makes vikings instead of a ton of medivacs which just outheal your templar anyway (it seems, if hes good.) When is everyone getting their two forges? Are most people going blink/colossus now, blink/charge with templar transition (I read teoita say this isnt as popular anymore because of terran 3 base timings with scvs) It just so happens that I took some notes on the parting vs last game that he is referring to. a quick sketch of the build-- 13 gate/scout 15 gas 18 cyber nexus asap (you can start a zealot and cancel it if you get scouted by an scv) first 100 gas on MSC, then WG, gas 2, pylon, stalker robotics @ 100 gas ~30 gate, sentry, forge, sentry observer x2, poke w/ stalker +1 armor,2 gas at nat ~7:45 robo bay, forge 2, obs 3 TC about when robo bay 50% done, add a third gateway colossus, blink, frange, gates 4+5 (~9:45) build about 10 stalkers and put them on a separate hotkey so you can be active w/ them on the map. charge after blink, secure third when possible, templar archives, defensive cannons add 3-4 gates it seems that with this style you rely on the stalker poke to get an idea of what the terran is up to. poking with MSC on a 2p map is probably a good idea if you just see a bunker/expo at the nat because you want to know if there's gonna be a widow mine drop or just standard 3 rax/stim play (and occasionally you might scout fast 3CC, in which case you can either try to immortal all in or go double forge and expand immediately off hardly any units, depending on the map of course) observer spread is probably the most important part of this strategy, it allows you to know where his army is, when/where drops are coming in, and scout his tech/3rd base timing. constant colossus production (maybe not if they go 2starport fairly quickly) parting adds in archons ~15 mins before getting storm because he's kept the viking count pretty low and just needs to tank the main bio army. another thing to note is that it is perfectly viable to just get one or two colossus without range and then switch right into templar/charge. On the maps where it's really hard to take a third base or if you're afraid of terran doing a viking +scv pull timing then this should be better. Ultimately the decision is stylistic though, and they are both used frequently at the pro level. Can you or anyone else link a replay to a game doing this build? It's exactly what i've been looking for and idk exactly how it works in game
http://www.gomtv.net/2013wcs1/vod/72030
it's game 2 of parting vs last on star station (I think it's behind the GSL paywall though)
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EPT
