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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders. |
Italy12247 Posts
On April 27 2013 03:13 vhapter wrote:
Is 17 Nexus 17 Forge 17 Pylon 17 Gateway 18 Cannon supposed to be always safe against 14 pool? The cannon timing seems way too close to when lings arrive if the zerg does send them to my base. Is it really worth it to go for this build, even if I have to pylon block my wall in case lings come in? I even ask myself if microing my probes is safe to do if I have a bit of delay because if I mess it up slightly my forge may go up later than ideal and therefore delay my cannon even more.
So should I really go for 17 Nexus? Are 15 and 16 Nexus outdated builds and not included in the PvZ guide for some reason?
Yep. On some maps you may have to hold position a probe and fully wall off in case he commits immediately with the lings, but overall nex first is safe vs regular pool timings.
I always nex first if i scout no early pool fast enough.
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In PvP, if I've expanded via a 1-Gate FE and my opponent is 1-base all-ining, at what point do I cut probes?
If this is dependent on the all-in, I'm most interested in 3-Gate Stargate.
Additionally, vs. 3-Gate Stargate, is 3 Gates + Robo enough production to hold, or do I need an extra gate or two? Alternatively, can/should I get cannons up? I saw an interesting build where against 3-Gate Stargate, the Protoss got a Forge at 7:15 and threw down two cannons when it finished.
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Italy12247 Posts
Probes: i'd say about 28-30.
Cannons: yeah if you can scout stargate somehow, go 3gate forge. Otherwise go 3gate robo. Just don't overmake immortals, if he's committing to a phoenix bust don't continue production after the first (which you more or less always end up getting). Vs void ray/oracle type stuff i'm not sure but i figure you still want to prioritize gateway units.
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Just got this game today, haven't played any SC2 in over a year. Anyone have a specific BO for PvP and PVZ? I know the OP gives general openings like "2 gate 3 stalker", but what are the specific BO for those, complete with supply count?
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On April 27 2013 02:17 Teoita wrote:
Yeah that's bad/unprecise advice.
Generally you can (for the most part) take your third with a 1-2 rounds of gateway units and maybe an immortal or two if you see he's producing roaches, which for many builds is at the 9ish minute mark.
A general build you can follow is to go stargate->4gate->robo, tech to colo and make 1 immortal while taking a third, go up to 6gates and react to what he's doing. This can delay your third a bit compared to a pure robo expand because obviously you also invest in stargate tech, but 9minutes is a good goal to go for.
With the build you specify i should be able to get a 9 min 3th? Really? Sounds kinda hard if i want to go phoenix, get a robo and also tech to collo :O. Does anyone have a nice build order for this play?
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Hello, Protoss thread.
I took a few months off Starcraft when HotS came out, and I never played Protoss during WoL. I was a plat Terran. I'm hoping to learn both Protoss and Zerg in HotS, but right now, I am just dreadful with both of them. Hopefully you smart folks can help me out. The Protoss threads have always looked like such excellent learning threads.
The match-up I feel I least understand right now is PvZ. Here's a game against a diamond Zerg, who, of course crushed me. I tried to FFE. I'm not sure if I placed my buildings in the right places or in the right order, but that was the least of my problems.
http://drop.sc/327777
Here are some other mistakes I noticed:
-Missed producing an SCV around the time I placed my Nexus.
-Didn't hotkey my forge. When I played Terran, I hotkeyed all my production to 4, all my CCs to 5, and all of my upgrade structures to 6. 1, 2, and 3 were for my army. How does this setup sound to you guys if I try to adapt it to Protoss? It would be:
4: gates, robo, SGs. 6: Forge, TC, TA.
-Put my core down late.
-Missed the timing to put my probes in gas by about 15 seconds.
-Misrallied my sentry so that it ended up in front of my zealot and had to waste APM repositioning them.
-Didn't saturate main. Ended up drastically oversaturating my natural.
-Stored up too much CB on Nexi.
-Waited too long to start upgrading with my Forge.
-Flew my Phoenix in vision of the Xel'Naga towers without clearing them.
-Left my base with 4 Phoenix when it seems like 5 or 6 would have been better. Those queens just didn't want to die.
Anything else?
Some additional questions I had from this game:
-What should I be doing back at home during the Phoenix harassment? I feel like I wasn't safe at home from a possible counter. What kind of defense should I have set up? Should I expand to a 3rd during the harassment?
-Did I have the right number of gates for each phase of the game?
-I opted for Charge when I saw Hydras, reasoning that Hydras aren't good when they can't keep their distance and that Zealots tear through low HP units pretty quickly. Was my reasoning sound?
Thanks!
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Speaking of that replay pack, I noticed hero did a few (maybe all 3) proxy stargates in his PVT
Does this kind of just die, or at least struggle badly, with fast widow mine drops... say off of a 1/1/1 opening.
Or would the stalker/stalker/msc pressure keep them home you think?
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On April 27 2013 04:57 Teoita wrote:
Probes: i'd say about 28-30.
Cannons: yeah if you can scout stargate somehow, go 3gate forge. Otherwise go 3gate robo. Just don't overmake immortals, if he's committing to a phoenix bust don't continue production after the first (which you more or less always end up getting). Vs void ray/oracle type stuff i'm not sure but i figure you still want to prioritize gateway units.
Forge before Robo! Wow, I would have never thought of that, that's seriously a great idea! Should I go Gates - Forge - Robo, or just Gates - Forge? I can always scout the Stargate in time because I make two Sentries out of my first gate (Zealot - Sentry - Msc + Stalker - Nexus - Sentry - 2 Gates), and the first one has energy for a Hallucination at 5:50-6:00. So that way I can FF my ramp once and still scout exactly what he's doing basically every time.
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Italy12247 Posts
On April 27 2013 06:02 Nipje wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2013 02:17 Teoita wrote:
Yeah that's bad/unprecise advice.
Generally you can (for the most part) take your third with a 1-2 rounds of gateway units and maybe an immortal or two if you see he's producing roaches, which for many builds is at the 9ish minute mark.
A general build you can follow is to go stargate->4gate->robo, tech to colo and make 1 immortal while taking a third, go up to 6gates and react to what he's doing. This can delay your third a bit compared to a pure robo expand because obviously you also invest in stargate tech, but 9minutes is a good goal to go for. With the build you specify i should be able to get a 9 min 3th? Really? Sounds kinda hard if i want to go phoenix, get a robo and also tech to collo :O. Does anyone have a nice build order for this play?
There's a BO in the WoL PvZ guide. HotS barely changed it, but you can be a little greedier with your colo tech because zergs are now less likely to put pressure on with pure roach.
On April 27 2013 06:09 ant885 wrote:Speaking of that replay pack, I noticed hero did a few (maybe all 3) proxy stargates in his PVT Does this kind of just die, or at least struggle badly, with fast widow mine drops... say off of a 1/1/1 opening. Or would the stalker/stalker/msc pressure keep them home you think?
If he's going for a widow mine drop you should have enough shit at home to hold with acceptable losses (if any) while all his scv's get killed by oracles. See MC's games at MLG.
On April 27 2013 06:12 Salivanth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2013 04:57 Teoita wrote:
Probes: i'd say about 28-30.
Cannons: yeah if you can scout stargate somehow, go 3gate forge. Otherwise go 3gate robo. Just don't overmake immortals, if he's committing to a phoenix bust don't continue production after the first (which you more or less always end up getting). Vs void ray/oracle type stuff i'm not sure but i figure you still want to prioritize gateway units. Forge before Robo! Wow, I would have never thought of that, that's seriously a great idea! Should I go Gates - Forge - Robo, or just Gates - Forge? I can always scout the Stargate in time because I make two Sentries out of my first gate (Zealot - Sentry - Msc + Stalker - Nexus - Sentry - 2 Gates), and the first one has energy for a Hallucination at 5:50-6:00. So that way I can FF my ramp once and still scout exactly what he's doing basically every time.
Go forge IF and only IF you see stargate allin (say you sneak a probe in), otherwise the forge is terribad. In that case yeah skip the robo. It takes 85 seconds to complete a cannon from when you start your forge (45+40), so it'd be very hard to get the cannons in time, assuming you do it reactively. Maybe you can just barely squeeze it if you rush for an hallucination, dunno.
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Yeah, figured as much with the forge  I guess I'll try it out and see if I can get them in time! At the very least it'll force my opponents to engage into Overcharge if they want to attack before the cannons are done, so yeah.
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Anyone got a build order / replay for oracle openers in all three matchups? I heard Crank does it pretty well but can't find a BO / replay.
User was warned for this post
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I've been going stargate into colossi in PvZ, but there are so many timings I don't know. When should I scout for the things below? I'm an incredibly meticulous player, so I would love to know general in-game clock timings for them (assuming my opponent went 3 hatch).
* Infestation Pit?
* Hive?
* Fourth/Fifth?
* Greater spire?
I thought of patrolling an observer behind the zerg's mineral lines (not sure if spores in my opponent's mineral line could kill it), since so many of them place their buildings behind their mineral line. Then I could just send a hallucinated phoenix to scout for hive or buildings that my observer may not able spot. If I see a spire and hive, I could probably leave my observer next to the spire and check it every now and then for a greater spire. But knowing those timings above would help me greatly, at least in terms of comfort.
Since my scouting isn't top notch, I have been mainly relying on arbitrary timings I choose for myself. I'd love to have someone critique them.
My goals are currently are getting my first colossus at about 10 minutes. I also try to start an expansion by 10 miniutes along with gates 5 and 6. Not sure how many sentries to get. Between the 10-11 minute mark, I add a twilight council. Templar archives 12 minutes because they are good against hydras, mutas, corruptors, and especially vipers. I'm not sure when to go to a total of 10 gateways - 12 or 13 minutes? As soon as I get my third or fourth colossus, I go for drops (possibly a storm drop). This should be at about the 15 minute mark or something.
Am I supposed to expand at this point? What kind of production buildings and units should I go for at this point? Should I transition to void rays (dunno... abduct is kinda strong against them) or should I go for 3 tempests or a few more in order to be safe against broodlords?
Here is a replay to show everything I said above. You can see my economy becomes a mess once it gets to the point I have satured my 3 bases. I get a very late fourth considering my income and don't know exactly what else I should go for.
http://drop.sc/327892?pass=8dc71240-8487-4dfe-a116-1267f945473b
Oh, one last question. Should I go for 3-3 ground upgrades or just 3-0? What then?
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So i've been using rsvp's fast 3 base void ray play and wanted to know what you would do against 2 or 3 base swarm host(i stay on 2 base vs 2 base zerg). also, if anyone knows the build are there any key timings that i need(2nd and 3rd sg's, twilight council, robo, gases, etc.)
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I really can not find a decent build order on liquidpedia for the phoenix into a fast 3th opening vs Zerg. Is there anyone that can provide me with a nice BO with a 9 minute 3th?
User was warned for this post
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Are you guys watching Naniwa vs SortOf? That 1 gate fe into 4 gate is pretty damn amazing, I think I just found my new ladder build!
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Does anyone have the BO for Naniwa's 1 gate expand into 4 gate -> stargate
Sorry about the question being BO related :/
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Italy12247 Posts
Seriously it was first used in pro matches yesterday, what are you expecting other than a report? -.-
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9 Pylon
13 Gate
14 Gas
16 Pylon
18 Core
21 Nexus
21 MSC
24 Pylon
24 WG
25 Zealot
27 Sentry
31 3x Gate
31 Pylon
35 Stargate
35 Proxy pylon
41 4x Zealots
48 Assimilator
50 4x Zealots
58 Pylon
60 Pylon
60 Assimilator
Ripped from his match history on the EU server. Timings are useless due to Gameheart, but you can figure it out once you do the build more.
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I've already been 1gating vs. Zerg for the past couple of weeks and have really liked it, but I wasn't completely sure if it was as valid as FFE despite the supposed strengths and my own success with it. Naniwa is pretty convincingly proving that it's a very valid build in DH, though.
His build doesn't seem like it'd be very difficult to replicate either.
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What exactly am I aiming to accomplish by opening with a few phoenix in PvZ? How much damage must I do to not be behind vs a gasless 3 base? Feels like I am very vulnerable to roach/hydra if I open with some phoenix and don't do much damage in comparison to opening with robo+sentries.
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EPT
