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Why is it taking you until 9:00 to do a 5gate pressure?
Build order for a 5gate off a 1gate expand:
9 Pylon
13 Gate
16 Pylon (scout)
18 Nexus
19 Assimilator (if against hatch first, 19 zealot otherwise)
Cybernetics Core
Zealot (from 1st gateway get 2 zealots and a stalker total, from 2nd gateway get a 3rd zealot or a 2nd stalker)
2 More Gates
Warpgate Research at 100% Cybernetics Core with constant chronos on it
Pylon
2 More Gates
Push out
Proxy Pylon
convert gateways
4 zealots up front plus a sentry at natural to guard base against ling counters
Attack time: 7:00-8:00
Here's a guide on gate-expands which includes a replay of a 5-gate at the end:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=395527
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On April 24 2013 15:36 FlyingBeer wrote:Why is it taking you until 9:00 to do a 5gate pressure? Build order for a 5gate off a 1gate expand: 9 Pylon 13 Gate 16 Pylon (scout) 18 Nexus 19 Assimilator (if against hatch first, 19 zealot otherwise) Cybernetics Core Zealot (from 1st gateway get 2 zealots and a stalker total, from 2nd gateway get a 3rd zealot or a 2nd stalker) 2 More Gates Warpgate Research at 100% Cybernetics Core with constant chronos on it Pylon 2 More Gates Push out Proxy Pylon convert gateways 4 zealots up front plus a sentry at natural to guard base against ling counters Attack time: 7:00-8:00 Here's a guide on gate-expands which includes a replay of a 5-gate at the end: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=395527
It doesn't take me until 9 minutes, they just hold the pressure until they can pop a bunch of SH at 9 and end the pressure.
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Well, you should have figured out your pressure wasn't working, and retreated well before 9:00. Then you'd be warping in sentries at home because you're behind on tech if your pressure doesn't do any damage and need to have lots of forcefield energy available to delay until your tech comes out. However, you can seize the watchtower with a zealot, and use the gateway units to deny any nydus canals from coming out near your base. He then has to build a bunch of lings to force your gateway units into your base in order to build his nydus canal.
You should be going for 2 warp-in cycles with the 5gate, and only getting the 3rd warp-in if you're close to breaking him. You should be able to figure out what's going to happen based entirely on where you're at with the first warp-in cycle, and be deciding whether to retreat by the time the 2nd warp in arrives at his base.
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Thank you for this awesome thread with lots of useful tips. Platinum player, I feel I'm ignorant on the subject of archons in PvT and I have a number of questions about them. Sorry if they feel naive, I've tried to make them as precise as I could.
I am unsure on how much I should rely on archons in maxed or near-maxed situation. Although they are twice as resistant as zealots, they are very vespene-heavy and are vulnerable to EMPs. I'm not sure what should be expected of them either: should I take them as stronger zealots to attack the MMM? As stalkers with AoE to destroy vikings? In other words, if I have lots of vespene gas, storm and 3-4 colossi into play, should I make more archons and fewer zealots, more archons and fewer stalkers? A bit fewer of both?
Speaking of that, how useful are archons in PvZ now that vortex is gone?
Finally, is it worth using ~1k vespene on 3-4 archons before you have your full HT squad on the field? In case of remax, I've heard that you should mix archons with your first wave of zealots, especially if you have some spare templar in your bases. Could anyone comment on that?
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I'm not sure how to deal with 3-Gate Stargate with 1-Gate FE. Here's a replay of me trying a Nexus cancel, and I try expanding off the back of a bunch of units from 3-Gate Robo instead.
http://drop.sc/326797
In this replay, everything pretty much goes perfectly and I still lose. My opponent loses TWO Oracles for nothing, I scout the 3-Gate Stargate, and I am able to cancel the Nexus.
So, my own analysis is that after making a couple rounds of units, I had to expand. If I didn't, my opponent would simply back off and expand himself, and I'd be behind. I figured he would all-in against an expansion, but he wouldn't try to push up my ramp.
In the end, my army composition is superior, but I lose the engagement because my micro sucks. (I practiced it against a practice partner, and he won 5-0, including the time he took control of my army and I took control of the opponent's.) However, this was an absolutely brilliant game before the engagement for me. I'm not going to get that every time. And of course, I'm still unsure if my response/macro was off.
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PVZ question again. I've been opening with nexus first or FFE (depending on their pool timing).
I'm having problems with vipers.
In a game last night, I got destroyed.
1) Did Nexus first.
2) I hit with a immortal/sentry push at 9:30. Killed his 3rd.... was forced back after 2 of my immortals died when my sentries ran out of energy. He had roach/hydra. He countered, but I had a colossus out which pushed him back.
3) I took a third, and built up my death ball. Harassing with DT.
4) My observers saw his hydra out and about.. so I headed towards them with colossus/chargelots/stalkers/dark templar.
5) I had failed to scout the hive.. but noticed he had Vipers. I engaged, and quickly my 5 colossus were one at a time pulled into his mob of hydra and killed. I killed most of his ball... but never recovered without my colossus aoe.. and my 3rd fell shortly after that.
Should I have gone templar instead of colossus?
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Italy12248 Posts
You need to react to hive tech with templar. Just start your archives when you see his hive morphing; the concept is identical to teching to mothership in WoL when you see a greater spire (only it takes far less and it's cheaper to get templar out).
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On April 25 2013 01:33 LegionSC2 wrote:
PVZ question again. I've been opening with nexus first or FFE (depending on their pool timing).
I'm having problems with vipers.
In a game last night, I got destroyed.
1) Did Nexus first.
2) I hit with a immortal/sentry push at 9:30. Killed his 3rd.... was forced back after 2 of my immortals died when my sentries ran out of energy. He had roach/hydra. He countered, but I had a colossus out which pushed him back.
3) I took a third, and built up my death ball. Harassing with DT.
4) My observers saw his hydra out and about.. so I headed towards them with colossus/chargelots/stalkers/dark templar.
5) I had failed to scout the hive.. but noticed he had Vipers. I engaged, and quickly my 5 colossus were one at a time pulled into his mob of hydra and killed. I killed most of his ball... but never recovered without my colossus aoe.. and my 3rd fell shortly after that.
Should I have gone templar instead of colossus?
no, colossus was the correct choice, but scouting the hive timing is really really important when fighting vs roach hydra. You'll have a better idea with their 3/3 will hit and vipers. When you get the templar, you should be sort of gas starved on 3 base as it is assuming your going traditional colossus stalker ball. Don't "rush" to storm, just get those HT out first to gather energy for feedbacks. You absolutely cannot engage without HTs to back your army up. If you feedback most of the vipers and they only manage to pull 1-2 colossus, you should still win the engagement assuming good position and good FFs.
If you find out you cant get the HT out in time, you need to be sending out as many drops/counter attacks as needed to delay until the HTs are out. You should have more than 8 gates at that point, so have observers spread out to see where his army is at, and hit him hard where his army is NOT at.
remember to bring msc with your main army, if you get caught out of position just quickly recall out.
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On April 25 2013 01:33 LegionSC2 wrote:
PVZ question again. I've been opening with nexus first or FFE (depending on their pool timing).
I'm having problems with vipers.
In a game last night, I got destroyed.
1) Did Nexus first.
2) I hit with a immortal/sentry push at 9:30. Killed his 3rd.... was forced back after 2 of my immortals died when my sentries ran out of energy. He had roach/hydra. He countered, but I had a colossus out which pushed him back.
3) I took a third, and built up my death ball. Harassing with DT.
4) My observers saw his hydra out and about.. so I headed towards them with colossus/chargelots/stalkers/dark templar.
5) I had failed to scout the hive.. but noticed he had Vipers. I engaged, and quickly my 5 colossus were one at a time pulled into his mob of hydra and killed. I killed most of his ball... but never recovered without my colossus aoe.. and my 3rd fell shortly after that.
Should I have gone templar instead of colossus? I'd need to see the specific game, but a general rule of thumb is that as the usual current style PvZ game (with roach/hydra vs. gateway/robo compositions) progresses to hive tech, you need to get templar, even if just for feedbacks so you can deal with the inevitable vipers. A competent Zerg controlling a roach/hydra/viper army will almost always win against a templar-less colossus death ball, or at least trade favourably, if their vipers go unchallenged. Those Scorpion "Get Over Here" hooks are really really good and are something that you need to be able to deal with.
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I have 3 questions regarding PvZ.
1) Is it safe opening nexus first against 14 pool on any map?
2) What to do If I go for ffe-->robo, and scout 2 base spire?
3) My usual build is ffe-->stargate, making a stalker just after I put down the stargate. Most zergs send 4-6 lings in my natural, and 2-3 make it inside and wreak havoc on my macro. Should I put a probe on hold until the stalker is out, or is that too much wasted minerals?
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Why don't Zergs throw down a fake Spire, like...all the time?
I mean, if I scout a Spire, I have to make a second Stargate, make a Fleet Beacon, and start pumping out otherwise not-that-useful Phoenix. Even if it only takes me a minute to decide he isn't going Mutas, that's like, 750/550 I've spent for his 200/200 investment plus a drone. (1 Stargate, 1 Fleet Beacon, 2 Phoenix) Not to mention any cannon costs. And that way, he can always make like, 20 Mutas all of a sudden later on and be very difficult to scout.
And if I don't do this, and he IS going Mutas, I'm in serious shit. It seems like if Zergs started doing this, Protoss'd be screwed.
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Well i don't really know what you mean with fake spire and when they put this down.
Since i always opened stargate since i could remember in this match up (yeah hipster i know)
i will answer it from my standpoint.
So if i scout around with my phoenixes and i see a spire i still
keep being active with the phoenixes and i don't throw a fleet beacon or a 2nd stargate down when im
not really sure what hes doing (there should be cases you know he's going mutas).
If he starts building mutas the initial
wave should be no problem since you already got ranged buffed phoenixes at his base (if they even decide to go mutas)
I was never really screwed (my opponents are mostly mid masters so im
kinda too bad to generalize this) and as far as i know i
have enough to hold most of the stuff zerg throws at me, so i hope this maybe helps. A higher level player might correct me if my play is wrong but i never exp that i would lose because of my gameplan 
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Italy12248 Posts
Spire could also mean corruptor, especially since if you open stargate you are really likely to go into colossus.
Scouting muta switches is more of a matter of seeing his rally, and especially his hydralisk count, than actually seeing a spire. I'm still trying to figure out the exact unit counts and timings myself.
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How is everyone dealing with the dreaded Swarm Host/Hydra/Viper composition late game PvZ?
Here's a replay of my game getting destroyed by this comp: http://drop.sc/327237
I start adding Phoenix because I'm worried about mutas, but the cannons and phoenix were not the thing that hurt, I don't believe. I will demolish his army early on, and then suddenly once I start getting into a position to kill off bases, I get destroyed. More colossi doesn't seem that practical, seeing as I had four at the start of the big battles, and it really only would help given that every opponent I have stays on mostly Hydra/Swarm Host. Which they won't.
Any ideas? Thanks all.
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I was just watching the stream of a high-masters player who goes proxy stargate for two oracles pretty much every game. They insisted this was not cheese, as you could macro out of it. He had a very high winrate.
I'm not all that knowledgeable about the game, but it smelled like cheddar to me. The only game he lost was when his Terran opponent scouted the relatively empty main with double gas and was able to find the stargate. One turret was basically GG.
Is anyone familiar with this style of play? It definitely wins game, but would you recommend it as an opener for macro play?
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Italy12248 Posts
Depends on the stargate play. If it's 1gate Fe into stargate i suppose yeha you can do it, atlhought not as a standard build (see rain vs some terran on whirlwind at mlg). If it's stargate 3gate stuff, no that guy has no idea what he's talking about.
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I watched 5 of his matches but none of them lasted long enough for him to expand. The build was Gate, Core, proxy Stargate. I wish I had some replays for reference, but I don't think he posts them. I caught the end of one of his games earlier, and he was definitely on more than one base, but I didn't see how he opened.
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EPT
