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The HotS Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 67

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders.
Bahamuth
Profile Joined September 2011
134 Posts
April 23 2013 11:27 GMT
#1321
You have to keep in mind that Parting probably expanded a bit later because Leenock took his 3rd later.
xAdra
Profile Joined July 2012
Singapore1858 Posts
April 23 2013 12:42 GMT
#1322
If you know your opponent is massing phoenixes in PvP, is it viable to go for forge expand, and immediately tech to blink afterwards? The cannons should be able to deflect the low phoenix count early until stalkers are up. I understand this is highly meta, but it seems to work everytime on Newkirk Precinct, at least for me.
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12248 Posts
April 23 2013 12:46 GMT
#1323
You commit to forge expand (which is beyond god awful in pvp) waay before knowning he'll go phoenix.

Even then, if you know he'll just do a phoenix macro build you can just do a regular twilight council build.
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
PsyStorm123
Profile Joined April 2013
Canada1 Post
April 23 2013 22:42 GMT
#1324
How do you counter Mass Void Rays as Protoss?
"I have journeyed through the darkness between the most distant stars. I have beheld the births of negative-suns and borne witness to the entropy of entire realities..."
xAdra
Profile Joined July 2012
Singapore1858 Posts
April 24 2013 00:51 GMT
#1325
On April 24 2013 07:42 PsyStorm123 wrote:
How do you counter Mass Void Rays as Protoss?

If you're not going for a mirror build, use the spell in your name, plus archons. It would also help greatly if you could bait the prismatic spell with blink stalkers, and engage when it expires.
ThaReckoning
Profile Joined January 2011
United States197 Posts
April 24 2013 01:28 GMT
#1326
Still having trouble with swarm host "all ins". Anybody got any vods of the zerg performing this correctly and losing? We're talking, zerg delays third and has swarmhosts attacking you by 10 minutes game time. The double robo colossus + warp prism harass everybody preaches just does not work, at all. The prism and warpins are wasted on spines, queens, and one burrowed SH back at base, and by the time you field enough colossi to get out, you get met by a cloud of mutas or corruptors. Has anyone really played against this and lived to tell the tale?
If you want to make one goal, to win, you must lose.
FlyingBeer
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States262 Posts
April 24 2013 04:54 GMT
#1327
On April 24 2013 10:28 ThaReckoning wrote:
Still having trouble with swarm host "all ins". Anybody got any vods of the zerg performing this correctly and losing? We're talking, zerg delays third and has swarmhosts attacking you by 10 minutes game time. The double robo colossus + warp prism harass everybody preaches just does not work, at all. The prism and warpins are wasted on spines, queens, and one burrowed SH back at base, and by the time you field enough colossi to get out, you get met by a cloud of mutas or corruptors. Has anyone really played against this and lived to tell the tale?


It is rumored there was a man once, long ago, from the time before the latest patch change who is said to have the APM of c, eyes like a hawk, and the most superbly detailed build orders one could ever hope to conceive. He fell many a Zerg who attempted such cheese against him, then Life cut off his head. Good luck.
FlyingBeer
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States262 Posts
April 24 2013 05:04 GMT
#1328
More seriously, I'd take a look at what time your warp prism is arriving in his base. Your robo should be started around 5:30, and your attack should start around 8:00 for small harass or 9:00 for big 7-gate all-innish harass, well before the first swarm host finishes. If it's not at least throwing his build order off by forcing lots of lings then you're doing something wrong. The first colossus should be done well before 10:00 with a simple 4gate-robo-bay sort of play. If you're wondering why I'm not asking about your opening, it's because it doesn't matter unless you're doing lots of cannon harassment or getting attacked with lots of lings. Gate-core, 1gate-expand, FFE, and Nexus first should all have the first tech building out around 5:30 with a few exceptions where gate-core and 1gate-expands can get it slightly earlier.
Ender2701
Profile Blog Joined January 2012
United States581 Posts
April 24 2013 05:06 GMT
#1329
Has there been any better consensus on how to deal with muta? I think mass stargate phoenix was decent for awhile but with the start of the corruptor-muta composition I've had a lot of trouble trying to use mass phoenix. Voidrays are too slow to catch the corruptor-muta flock and I end up slowly losing all my bases/probes.
SteveNick
Profile Joined November 2008
United States304 Posts
April 24 2013 05:20 GMT
#1330
Even though voids technically beat corruptors, I don't think it's a wise idea to add them in. Better option is to get phoenix range and more phoenixes which will function a lot more fluidly and are much easier to micro than trying to manage phoenix/void together. You outrange corruptors with the phoenixes, and as the games goes on you add HTs which will heavily swing any big clash in your favour.
It's all fun and games until somebody gets 4gated.
Ender2701
Profile Blog Joined January 2012
United States581 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-24 05:25:28
April 24 2013 05:23 GMT
#1331
On April 24 2013 14:20 SteveNick wrote:
Even though voids technically beat corruptors, I don't think it's a wise idea to add them in. Better option is to get phoenix range and more phoenixes which will function a lot more fluidly and are much easier to micro than trying to manage phoenix/void together. You outrange corruptors with the phoenixes, and as the games goes on you add HTs which will heavily swing any big clash in your favour.


I have tried this but it's not very effective. I spend all my time chasing muta-corruptor while they macro up. Even if phoenix would be okay in a big field against corruptor-muta, the issue is that you can't stop them from killing all your probes while you try to kite corruptors.

Also I'd prefer to see actual pro or GM level games, or a reply from a GM level player instead of theory crafting which tends to be not so useful.
dreamsmasher
Profile Joined November 2010
816 Posts
April 24 2013 05:32 GMT
#1332
On April 24 2013 14:06 Ender2701 wrote:
Has there been any better consensus on how to deal with muta? I think mass stargate phoenix was decent for awhile but with the start of the corruptor-muta composition I've had a lot of trouble trying to use mass phoenix. Voidrays are too slow to catch the corruptor-muta flock and I end up slowly losing all my bases/probes.


mass phoenix works even with corruptor in the mix, since they outrange/speed them, just use them in conjunction with blink stalker if they heavily commit to air.
ThaReckoning
Profile Joined January 2011
United States197 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-24 05:49:33
April 24 2013 05:49 GMT
#1333
On April 24 2013 14:04 FlyingBeer wrote:
More seriously, I'd take a look at what time your warp prism is arriving in his base. Your robo should be started around 5:30, and your attack should start around 8:00 for small harass or 9:00 for big 7-gate all-innish harass, well before the first swarm host finishes. If it's not at least throwing his build order off by forcing lots of lings then you're doing something wrong. The first colossus should be done well before 10:00 with a simple 4gate-robo-bay sort of play. If you're wondering why I'm not asking about your opening, it's because it doesn't matter unless you're doing lots of cannon harassment or getting attacked with lots of lings. Gate-core, 1gate-expand, FFE, and Nexus first should all have the first tech building out around 5:30 with a few exceptions where gate-core and 1gate-expands can get it slightly earlier.


This is about 3 minutes before the build can even be identified. I want a reaction to the build, not a blind counter to it. Also, 5:30 is extremely early for any tech, even with a 1 gate FE. It most certainly isn't advisable to get it so early after cannon shenanigans. I don't want to try and blind counter the build 3 minutes before it comes out, I want to be able to stop it once I've identified it at 8 minutes.
If you want to make one goal, to win, you must lose.
FlyingBeer
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States262 Posts
April 24 2013 05:59 GMT
#1334
Tech at 5:30 is the standard time for almost all builds. If you're not getting it at 5:30, then you must be doing some sort of gateway pressure. If you're not doing that, then your build is wrong. If you're not opening warp prism harass followed by colossus against 2-base play, then why did you describe that? In order for anybody to tell you how to proceed you have to describe what your build is up until 8:00 since there's no way to completely reorganize your build in only 2:00, and just ignore everything before 8:00.
Zealot Lord
Profile Joined May 2010
Hong Kong748 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-24 06:01:00
April 24 2013 06:00 GMT
#1335
oops mistake
ThaReckoning
Profile Joined January 2011
United States197 Posts
April 24 2013 06:01 GMT
#1336
On April 24 2013 14:59 FlyingBeer wrote:
Tech at 5:30 is the standard time for almost all builds. If you're not getting it at 5:30, then you must be doing some sort of gateway pressure. If you're not doing that, then your build is wrong. If you're not opening warp prism harass followed by colossus against 2-base play, then why did you describe that? In order for anybody to tell you how to proceed you have to describe what your build is up until 8:00 since there's no way to completely reorganize your build in only 2:00, and just ignore everything before 8:00.


It's 1 gate FE with some pressure if I scout a zerg third. I'm not opening warp prism harass blind, I want to be able to react to what the zerg does.
If you want to make one goal, to win, you must lose.
FlyingBeer
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States262 Posts
April 24 2013 06:08 GMT
#1337
And if you don't scout a zerg third, like in the case of the build you're asking about?
ThaReckoning
Profile Joined January 2011
United States197 Posts
April 24 2013 06:09 GMT
#1338
On April 24 2013 15:08 FlyingBeer wrote:
And if you don't scout a zerg third, like in the case of the build you're asking about?


I identify what he's doing and counter that. What I'm asking is if anyone's found anything different than double robo colossus + wp harass, which doesn't work.
If you want to make one goal, to win, you must lose.
FlyingBeer
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States262 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-24 06:19:49
April 24 2013 06:16 GMT
#1339
Well, that's your problem then. Your build plans on working based on scouting a third at 4:15. Since you don't know what a 2-basing player is going for until 8:00, that's 3:45 of game time where you're just building whatever with no plan. Some options are to just do the gateway pressure anyway (it works more often than you would think), tech straight into colossus (which should have 2 colossus out before 10:00), phoenix harass, warp prism harass (which I've already mentioned and does work), void production, or dts. If you're doing anything other than the gateway pressure, then you should be building your first tech building around 5:30.

EDIT: And all of those will allow you to defend that build by just using whatever tech you have available except for maybe the voids. The phoenix, DTs, warp prism, and gateway pressure will all delay his attack. The colossus will allow you to defend it.
ThaReckoning
Profile Joined January 2011
United States197 Posts
April 24 2013 06:27 GMT
#1340
On April 24 2013 15:16 FlyingBeer wrote:
Well, that's your problem then. Your build plans on working based on scouting a third at 4:15. Since you don't know what a 2-basing player is going for until 8:00, that's 3:45 of game time where you're just building whatever with no plan. Some options are to just do the gateway pressure anyway (it works more often than you would think), tech straight into colossus (which should have 2 colossus out before 10:00), phoenix harass, warp prism harass (which I've already mentioned and does work), void production, or dts. If you're doing anything other than the gateway pressure, then you should be building your first tech building around 5:30.

EDIT: And all of those will allow you to defend that build by just using whatever tech you have available except for maybe the voids. The phoenix, DTs, warp prism, and gateway pressure will all delay his attack. The colossus will allow you to defend it.


That's the issue I'm having, I need a general build that deals with muta, hydra, and SH well. I don't think you can make enough of a trade with gateway pressure, phoenixes, or non DT warp prism harass to delay the push though. I've seen zergs pop them at 9 minutes in the face of 5 gates of warpins at their natural, they just burrow and kill off your push/forward pylons and then come to beat your face in with free locusts. I think the builds with the best chance of defending it have high mobility, like old school Hero PvZ with blink + dt drops etc.
If you want to make one goal, to win, you must lose.
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