The HotS Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 65

Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders.

ThyLastPenguin

United Kingdom101 Posts

April 21 2013 11:20 GMT

#1281

On April 21 2013 19:36 Teoita wrote:
Nop, like no tournaments release replays anymore, even IEM T_T I'd sell my soul for that replay lol.

Shame, that was an awesome game.
Thanks for all your help though! =D

KrazyTrumpet

United States2520 Posts

April 21 2013 19:48 GMT

#1282

On April 21 2013 17:33 Teoita wrote:

Show nested quote +

On April 21 2013 15:16 KrazyTrumpet wrote:

On April 21 2013 15:03 SkyBlaze wrote:

On April 21 2013 03:28 ThaReckoning wrote:

On April 20 2013 22:02 bertu wrote:

On April 20 2013 14:29 ThaReckoning wrote:

On April 20 2013 14:18 bertu wrote:

On April 20 2013 12:55 ThaReckoning wrote:

It's just a bio opener into that composition. Terran delaying protoss's third is nothing new, it's normal. You can't move out and take a third before you get 2-3 colossi because of how strong drop play is. I don't think that going with templar is a good idea, the composition is way too tanky for that. Immortals are also a soft option because of the EMP. I don't have any replays offhand, but it's just standard terran bio shenanigans vs a double forge robo opener into that composition. The last time I played against it I didn't even take any probe damage from widow mine + bio drops, and still just got smashed by the macro lead + extremely cost efficient army that terran seems to get by default with that composition.

I agree that T delaying your third is standard, but you mentioned him having 2/2 and you with 3/3 before you even stablished a third, that's unusual. I was focusing on that time of the game.

It still looks like it's a matter of having your third and tech transitions at the right time. A Protoss with upgrade lead and two types of splash is the strongest theoretical thing you can have against bio in the mid game, specially if you are not taking harass damage early. If T is always going mass vikings and hellbats to abuse your colossus count at the time you are trying to saturate a third, switching to immortal and templar say after two colossus, with an upgrade lead and low stalker count looks like the best response imaginable (that or microing perfectly to snipe vikings with blink stalkers while forcefielding and time warping and making colossus - than it's a matter of execution, and double forge can only help).

If you mean viking+hellbat+ghost late game composition, than it's only possible after you already have a third (he can't have enough ghosts and vikings that early), and it becomes standard late game PvT management. I agree that hellbats are pretty good at that stage with the standard bio composition, but late game good play has a much bigger role at that stage than opening double forge or not, since you should have all your upgrades and tech ready anyways.

It's really hard to comment without seeing replays. If you could point a pro/streamed game where that happened, it would be great too. Sorry I couldn't help further.

What I mean is that before your third is established fully, he can do a 2-2 attack with +2 hellbats, and your 3-3 either won't be done, or will be just finishing up. The problem is that your zealots are essentially wasted supply, and if you cut colossi for immortals he can just emp you while the hellbats soak a ton of immortal shots and his marauders roll you over.

just want to add in that any good protoss would just lay FFs to delay a push if 3/3 is not done in time to stop any timing
push that would happen b4 3/3 was done. Also we should stop talking about this PvT/TvP in this situation it mostly about who can control their army better than the other player.

On April 21 2013 14:57 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
Man, that two base oracle all in just isn't working for me any more in PvT. Too many seem to be able to deflect it pretty easily. Any other all ins that might be more effective? I just don't feel like trying long games against Terran right now, it's too hard. Would rather solidify PvZ and PvP some more before I worry about PvT again.

I don't know if your asking for help or not but most games in SC2 should be decide by the player who's has better army control and not by who has the better army comp and the best example is PvT atm for me but their are a few things i don't like about atm(example terrans got way too many harassment options for my taste).

but for the Oracle based play versus terran is kinda gimmicky due to place 1 turret basically stops all oracle harassment. either the orcacle needs some kind of shield boast or it's attack spell use less energy. It will be shut down way to easy if scouted . just do the double forge builds their way more solid can you do all-in based of them if needed. Example, 5gate all-in(1base), 2 immortal all-in(2base), 1 col 6 gate all-in, High templar 8gate all-in.
Or just play standard play into 1/1 col or 1/1 stroms

I just want a strong all in that I can do in PvT so I can focus more on my PvZ and my PvP for now.

You could try one base stuff like proxy void rays or blink. Alternatively, look up Flash vs Jangbi, Jangbi won with an immortal bust.

Was that a one base immortal bust or a 2 base one kind of like in PvZ? Will give both of these suggestions a try, thank you.

xAdra

Singapore1858 Posts

April 22 2013 11:13 GMT

#1283

How do you deal with mass banshees, the kind that has groups of banshees harassing everywhere on both sides of the map? They also have bases in the form of Planetary Fortresses supported by 3 turrets to prevent zealot/dt harassment. Cloak isn't my main problem here: it's being able to clear out all the banshees and vikings without losing too much of my stuff.

Was able to stop the build several times in WoL with Vortex available, since I could just toilet all the banshees and vikings. However I am at a loss when it comes to HotS.

Should I have aim for skytoss in the lategame against such a composition? I think carrier-tempest-ht-archon would do very well against this. The problem is that with the unrelenting double pronged attacks from this build I find myself unable to keep up in econ as he keeps denying my bases.

Here is a replay of me fighting against it (diamond Protoss).

http://drop.sc/326575

I apologize beforehand for any cringing my poor mechanics cause in viewers.

DeCoup

Australia1933 Posts

April 22 2013 12:24 GMT

#1284

Hey guys. I just have a quick question.
When playing against a random opponent on the ladder it is not really wise to get a fast expansion (or at least not a FFE), and I was wondering what you do when you realize you are up against a Zerg? Do you have any specific 1 base play you do to try to kill them before being economically behind becomes a factor? Or do you just scout and try to adapt?

Teoita

Italy12246 Posts

April 22 2013 12:32 GMT

#1285

You can Gateway expand if he's z; just scout earlier than usual (on 2 player maps i 13 scout vs random and core scout or no scout otherwise).

Olli

Austria24417 Posts

April 22 2013 12:41 GMT

#1286

On April 22 2013 21:32 Teoita wrote:
You can Gateway expand if he's z; just scout earlier than usual (on 2 player maps i 13 scout vs random and core scout or no scout otherwise).

Does 9 scouting make any sense? I usually auto do that without thinking about it vs random.

7mk

Germany10157 Posts

April 22 2013 12:43 GMT

#1287

I would suggest to never go 1 base all in vs Zerg, it's pretty bad
You can for example go 1 gate expand ->stargate

7mk

Germany10157 Posts

April 22 2013 12:46 GMT

#1288

On April 22 2013 21:41 DarkLordOlli wrote:

Show nested quote +

Does 9 scouting make any sense? I usually auto do that without thinking about it vs random.

Question is if youre gonna change anything based on the information.
Personally when I play vs random in hots I always go 13gate double gas at 16 supply no matter what race, so sending a 9 scout would really just be a waste of eco.

Teoita

Italy12246 Posts

April 22 2013 13:03 GMT

#1289

On April 22 2013 21:43 7mk wrote:
I would suggest to never go 1 base all in vs Zerg, it's pretty bad
You can for example go 1 gate expand ->stargate

Yes, never ever ever ever ever ever onebase vs a zerg.

On April 22 2013 21:41 DarkLordOlli wrote:

Show nested quote +

Does 9 scouting make any sense? I usually auto do that without thinking about it vs random.

I used to do that too, until the day i accidentally held off a 6pool while thinking i was playing a pvp (and not scouting). So naaah fuck it, 9 scouting is for pussies if you dont FFE.

DeCoup

Australia1933 Posts

April 22 2013 14:15 GMT

#1290

On April 22 2013 21:46 7mk wrote:

Show nested quote +

Why double gas at 16? What's your general plan vs each race after this point?

Teoita

Italy12246 Posts

April 22 2013 14:17 GMT

#1291

Double gas can go into 1gate FE, gateway aggression and tech. It's just a nice opening no matter what your followup is.

Salivanth

Australia1071 Posts

April 22 2013 14:20 GMT

#1292

In PvP, if I go for a 1-Gate FE, do I have to cancel the Nexus if I scout 3-Gate Stargate? If I do that, am I then behind?

If I don't have to cancel the Nexus, how do I defend? I just can't seem to make enough stuff. Oracle-based or Phoenix-based, doesn't matter, even when I take like, no damage from the harassment.

Olli

Austria24417 Posts

April 22 2013 14:21 GMT

#1293

On April 22 2013 23:15 DeCoup wrote:

Show nested quote +

Why double gas at 16? What's your general plan vs each race after this point?

Two probes on each gas mind you. It sets you up to react against anything while only committing one extra probe to mining gas + you will be able to tech faster regardless of what you do because you're already mining more gas.

Jasiwel

United States146 Posts

April 22 2013 16:28 GMT

#1294

On April 22 2013 20:13 xAdra wrote:
How do you deal with mass banshees, the kind that has groups of banshees harassing everywhere on both sides of the map? They also have bases in the form of Planetary Fortresses supported by 3 turrets to prevent zealot/dt harassment. Cloak isn't my main problem here: it's being able to clear out all the banshees and vikings without losing too much of my stuff.

Was able to stop the build several times in WoL with Vortex available, since I could just toilet all the banshees and vikings. However I am at a loss when it comes to HotS.

Should I have aim for skytoss in the lategame against such a composition? I think carrier-tempest-ht-archon would do very well against this. The problem is that with the unrelenting double pronged attacks from this build I find myself unable to keep up in econ as he keeps denying my bases.

Here is a replay of me fighting against it (diamond Protoss).

http://drop.sc/326575

I apologize beforehand for any cringing my poor mechanics cause in viewers.

I actually faced this situation in my last game in HotS before I stopped due to lack of interest. We were both on two base for about 15minutes, then I move to three base after I clean up a drop. He turtles too well for me to scout his base (as in, he places just enough Missile Turrets to keep out Hallucinations and Observers, but not enough to damage his economy) and then he shows up with a Sky Terran fleet of Banshees/Ravens/Vikings that could not be killed by anything I had available. Although it's apparent I didn't read him correctly, the Turtle Sky-Terran is very frustrating to figure out in the first place. That combination is just so powerful and if timed right equates to an auto-win granted Protoss isn't going Skytoss.

askmc70

United States722 Posts

April 22 2013 17:43 GMT

#1295

if you see more than 1 starport get 2 stargates and pump out phenoix and aim for skytoss, just defend and aim towards hts and tempests if longer.

Abturn

Germany55 Posts

April 22 2013 21:35 GMT

#1296

Hi
Could Someone Tell me how i can win vs this Swarmhost,Hydra, Viper, Corruptor Combo in Lategame?

http://drop.sc/326680

rsvp

United States2266 Posts

April 22 2013 23:22 GMT

#1297

On April 22 2013 23:20 Salivanth wrote:
In PvP, if I go for a 1-Gate FE, do I have to cancel the Nexus if I scout 3-Gate Stargate? If I do that, am I then behind?

If I don't have to cancel the Nexus, how do I defend? I just can't seem to make enough stuff. Oracle-based or Phoenix-based, doesn't matter, even when I take like, no damage from the harassment.

IMO it is very difficult to hold 3 gate stargate with 1 gate FE. There's no way you're going to scout it before you have time to cancel, unless you somehow luckily slip a probe into his base. The best way to hold is to go stalker heavy with few sentries (1 or 2). During engagements make sure you target pheonixes with your stalkers first. However, this is dangerous because normally you'd need a lot of sentries to hold against gateway pressure, and it can be near impossible to scout between regular gateway pressure and a stargate all-in before it's too late.

You might want to upload a replay though, because the way you phrase your question "am I behind" and "no damage from the haraassment" makes me think something else is going on. If someone opens 3 gate star against 1 gate FE the correct move would be for the stargate player to just all-in, unless he opened oracle and it did a lot of damage and he just wants to play it safe. Are you talking about mid-game void ray compositions?

On April 23 2013 02:43 askmc70 wrote:

Show nested quote +

if you see more than 1 starport get 2 stargates and pump out phenoix and aim for skytoss, just defend and aim towards hts and tempests if longer.

I personally prefer HT all the way against sky terran. Phoenix can work but is a gamble and not reliable, phoenix vs viking is only ok for the phoenix, but the terran is going to have much greater viking production than your phoenix production on top of the head start he'll probably have, and he'll have PDD to help. Also, you're much more susceptible to transitions or if he adds things like marines or thors into his army.

Probably the best thing that would help you though is instead to scout better, realize what he's doing faster, and then have better map awareness with observers to track where his army is so it doesn't surprise you and cause a lot of harassment damage.

Xaeldaren

Ireland588 Posts

April 22 2013 23:32 GMT

#1298

On April 23 2013 06:35 Abturn wrote:
Hi
Could Someone Tell me how i can win vs this Swarmhost,Hydra, Viper, Corruptor Combo in Lategame?

http://drop.sc/326680

I was wondering something similar. Here's a replay of something similar between myself and a friend (both Masters): http://drop.sc/326721

The game is very strange, and from my perspective it was quite frustrating to play against, even if I won. I'm honestly confused how to play a long, macro PvZ in general in HotS, I was such an Immortal all-in/pre-hive timing based player in WoL.

rsvp

United States2266 Posts

April 23 2013 00:04 GMT

#1299

On April 23 2013 06:35 Abturn wrote:
Hi
Could Someone Tell me how i can win vs this Swarmhost,Hydra, Viper, Corruptor Combo in Lategame?

http://drop.sc/326680

You need a large amount colossus (~6), HT (10+), and void/carrier (rest). Voids are better against corruptors and ultras, carriers are better against hydras, so mix and match appropriately. Archons are not very useful except if your HT run out of energy in battle, tempests are not very useful because they do no DPS (and you need a lot of DPS for this to work in order to push back locusts), immortals are ok but only if he has ultras, but definitely NO stalkers.

Your main issue was you had too many stalkers in your army. They serve no role in a late game army. While throughout the game you made a lot of colossus, HT, and void rays, you never had all 3 in a decent number at the same time. You started off with a lot of colo and few HT and no void, then you added in more HT (good) but pre-emptively morphed a bunch into archons (bad). You added in voids into your army (good) but stopped replacing your lost colo (bad).

Also in terms of micro tips you should not waste storm on locusts while retreating, because you can always kite locusts indefinitely off creep (off creep locusts are slower than colo). You need to save up all your storm for when you're pushing forward. Also you should at least make some attempts to feedback vipers, number 1 priority of course is still storming to push forward but feedbacking some vipers will help a lot.

Here are some examples:

http://drop.sc/326729
http://drop.sc/326732

Erik.TheRed

United States1655 Posts

April 23 2013 00:43 GMT

#1300

On April 22 2013 21:43 7mk wrote:
I would suggest to never go 1 base all in vs Zerg, it's pretty bad
You can for example go 1 gate expand ->stargate

Interestingly enough, the old lobber build works really well up to high masters especially with the added power of the MSC. Granted it still does poorly vs hydra play but if they get the hydra den too quickly you can often snipe it with the immortal/stalker drop. Most zergs simply fail to recognize what the build is and either attempt to drone + take a 3rd base during the drop harass which is pretty much an auto-lose, or other times they will just spam zerglings assuming you are trying to FE off 1 gate in which case you just laugh as you sit behind a wall. Most high masters (1400+) zergs will have no problem vs it but if your micro is good you might be able to pull of a decent winrate with it (I've taken out a few GMs with it recently).

And no, I'm not making this up. I actually just leveled my EU account up to masters last week exclusively 4 gating in pvt, doing lobber build in pvz, and going 3g stargate in pvp. Took about 3-4 hours to get to 1400 masters MMR.

replay vs GM if interested - http://drop.sc/326758

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