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On April 19 2013 19:38 herMan wrote:
Hello, I'm a top master Terran.
Just dropping by to ask why protoss do not go for two base templar instead of colossi? I have almost never seen templar first on ladder (bar two base templar all ins). Protoss could defend their bases from drops better especially since the advent of turbovacs.
In my experience Templar first openings are a little more volatile and the better you get the worse they become. Storm is literally hit or miss, and against good players who know how to bait or dodge them it's practically worthless. It's just much easier to survive a 10 minute timing from a competent Terran when your AOE is consistent and not dependant on your opponent's (in)ability to micro.
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Italy12246 Posts
Agree on how volatile templar openings are, not that they get worst as you go up. I mean Rain at his peak during last summer basically always went templar before colo.
They are harder to do though, so when you can find yourself in awkward situations (as is the case with hots being released) people tend to do the easiest thing possible first (in this case colo). The same was true in early wol too, almost everyone preferred colo before templar.
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On April 20 2013 07:18 Teoita wrote:
Agree on how volatile templar openings are, not that they get worst as you go up. I mean Rain at his peak during last summer basically always went templar before colo.
They are harder to do though, so when you can find yourself in awkward situations (as is the case with hots being released) people tend to do the easiest thing possible first (in this case colo). The same was true in early wol too, almost everyone preferred colo before templar.
For sure. I fell in love with how Rain played vs Polt and Taeja when he made his GSL debut, and all I did for about a month afterwards was Templar openings with Storm drops. I just feel there's a reason why literally every PvT Rain has played since the advent of HotS has been Colossus based.
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Italy12246 Posts
Yes, the first part of the game on Antiga is one of the best PvT's that's ever been played. Rain's gameplan was absolutely amazing. I've recommended studying that game in this thread to sooo many people haha
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Now that we're talking about it and I'm thinking about it more I really want to do it now :p That style of harass heavy PvT is so much fun. I still don't think I understand the subtle differences between Colossus and Templar play as much as I'd like, but on a personal level I don't relying on luck/things that could be inconsistent, Colossus play just feels more solid.
I've also fallen in love with his 2 Colossus, Charge first into Templar style lately, so I might be biased.
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Link to Antiga game or replay?
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Anybody had any luck beating marauder/ghost/viking/hellbat? In my experience, double forge against this is a sure loss. The only thing I can think of that might be able to combat it is some sort of highly aggressive build with a fast third as well, but as most of you know, no such thing exists. By the time you field a 3-3 army with 3 colossi, terran's on 2-2 bio with +2 hellbats, and your front line of zealots disappears in a flash, leaving ~12 stalkers and some sentries/colossi to get evaporated by marauder/viking. Meanwhile his third is up and has been fully saturated, while yours isn't established. All in all, has anyone found a new way to PvT in hots that does okay? Double forge seems to be a thing of the past.
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On April 20 2013 06:44 Ben... wrote:
YAAAAAAY finally made Master after being diamond for over a year. Thanks for all the help people! Now I have to work through a 400 point bonus pool. I probably shouldn't be in Master with how terrible I am but I guess it is motivation to improve more. Interestingly it placed me at around rank 50, which I don't think is accurate. I should be at the bottom at best, or still in Diamond hahaha.
Also, when doing an insanely fast 4gate, is 10 or 11 better for building the gateway? As I have said in the past, I am not a huge fan of late game PvP so I like mixing it up a bunch. I've noticed people are doing anti-DT builds now but a lot of these builds are weak to a fast 4gate.
There are always inactive players in any division. Just spending your bonus pool will keep you out of the bottom of the division. And believe me, you are worthy of Masters. You'd be surprised at how terrible Master players can be. I recently had a Master do a 1-base double-stargate all-in that hit 12 minutes in. I, another Master, somehow lost to this build.
...Yeah.
If I can make Masters, and that guy can make Masters, you're fine.
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On April 20 2013 12:55 ThaReckoning wrote:
Anybody had any luck beating marauder/ghost/viking/hellbat? In my experience, double forge against this is a sure loss. The only thing I can think of that might be able to combat it is some sort of highly aggressive build with a fast third as well, but as most of you know, no such thing exists. By the time you field a 3-3 army with 3 colossi, terran's on 2-2 bio with +2 hellbats, and your front line of zealots disappears in a flash, leaving ~12 stalkers and some sentries/colossi to get evaporated by marauder/viking. Meanwhile his third is up and has been fully saturated, while yours isn't established. All in all, has anyone found a new way to PvT in hots that does okay? Double forge seems to be a thing of the past.
Replays? I don't see why double forge would be a sure loss. How is he delaying your third for so long? There seems to be something else going on in the games other than the composition.
You still can get storm and high immortal count while going with double forge (as long as you don't make many colossus and stalkers too early), it was popular in PL at the end of WOL. Maybe If you see him going for marauder/hellbat/viking, try switching out of colossus/blink stalker in favor of faster storm, or at least archons/immortal if he is containing you in your natural. You can delay 3/3 to get enough gas, I suppose. But it's better if we could see replays. I've never seem the exact situation you mentioned in a pro game.
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On April 20 2013 12:55 ThaReckoning wrote:
Anybody had any luck beating marauder/ghost/viking/hellbat? In my experience, double forge against this is a sure loss. The only thing I can think of that might be able to combat it is some sort of highly aggressive build with a fast third as well, but as most of you know, no such thing exists. By the time you field a 3-3 army with 3 colossi, terran's on 2-2 bio with +2 hellbats, and your front line of zealots disappears in a flash, leaving ~12 stalkers and some sentries/colossi to get evaporated by marauder/viking. Meanwhile his third is up and has been fully saturated, while yours isn't established. All in all, has anyone found a new way to PvT in hots that does okay? Double forge seems to be a thing of the past.
Thors do ridiculous damage, sometimes T opens banshee then goes into raven/mech which is just as bad as ghost/mech. I have no idea how to open or spot either, but if I do survive till mid game it seems that heavy robo with HT does well against ghost-mech and mass expo+heavy gateway does well against raven/mech. I seem to be having more success when I sacrifice upgrades or storm in favor of a faster 3rd, since you really need 3 healthy bases to fight evenly. Opening DTs is risky because you never know what could drop in your main, but DT drop openings are more safer because of the robo - at the cost of a delayed expo.
Really any advice on this would be much appreciated because T just feels so OP at the moment 
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On April 20 2013 14:18 bertu wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2013 12:55 ThaReckoning wrote:
Anybody had any luck beating marauder/ghost/viking/hellbat? In my experience, double forge against this is a sure loss. The only thing I can think of that might be able to combat it is some sort of highly aggressive build with a fast third as well, but as most of you know, no such thing exists. By the time you field a 3-3 army with 3 colossi, terran's on 2-2 bio with +2 hellbats, and your front line of zealots disappears in a flash, leaving ~12 stalkers and some sentries/colossi to get evaporated by marauder/viking. Meanwhile his third is up and has been fully saturated, while yours isn't established. All in all, has anyone found a new way to PvT in hots that does okay? Double forge seems to be a thing of the past. Replays? I don't see why double forge would be a sure loss. How is he delaying your third for so long? There seems to be something else going on in the games other than the composition. You still can get storm and high immortal count while going with double forge (as long as you don't make many colossus and stalkers too early), it was popular in PL at the end of WOL. Maybe If you see him going for marauder/hellbat/viking, try switching out of colossus/blink stalker in favor of faster storm, or at least archons/immortal if he is containing you in your natural. You can delay 3/3 to get enough gas, I suppose. But it's better if we could see replays. I've never seem the exact situation you mentioned in a pro game.
It's just a bio opener into that composition. Terran delaying protoss's third is nothing new, it's normal. You can't move out and take a third before you get 2-3 colossi because of how strong drop play is. I don't think that going with templar is a good idea, the composition is way too tanky for that. Immortals are also a soft option because of the EMP. I don't have any replays offhand, but it's just standard terran bio shenanigans vs a double forge robo opener into that composition. The last time I played against it I didn't even take any probe damage from widow mine + bio drops, and still just got smashed by the macro lead + extremely cost efficient army that terran seems to get by default with that composition.
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Is it possible to get translations of these replay segments they do? I would love to hear what these guys have to say.
edit: sorry wrong thread. I don't think I can delete this post, meant to post in SPL thread.
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On April 20 2013 14:14 Salivanth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2013 06:44 Ben... wrote:
YAAAAAAY finally made Master after being diamond for over a year. Thanks for all the help people! Now I have to work through a 400 point bonus pool. I probably shouldn't be in Master with how terrible I am but I guess it is motivation to improve more. Interestingly it placed me at around rank 50, which I don't think is accurate. I should be at the bottom at best, or still in Diamond hahaha.
Also, when doing an insanely fast 4gate, is 10 or 11 better for building the gateway? As I have said in the past, I am not a huge fan of late game PvP so I like mixing it up a bunch. I've noticed people are doing anti-DT builds now but a lot of these builds are weak to a fast 4gate. There are always inactive players in any division. Just spending your bonus pool will keep you out of the bottom of the division. And believe me, you are worthy of Masters. You'd be surprised at how terrible Master players can be. I recently had a Master do a 1-base double-stargate all-in that hit 12 minutes in. I, another Master, somehow lost to this build. ...Yeah. If I can make Masters, and that guy can make Masters, you're fine. Thanks! Yeah some of the people I faced that were Master back while I was in Diamond made me kinda question skill levels. So far it is lots of Terrans who do weird one-base stuff with proxies that I can beat just by playing safe. Hopefully I improve enough to stay hahaha.
On April 20 2013 12:55 ThaReckoning wrote:
Anybody had any luck beating marauder/ghost/viking/hellbat? In my experience, double forge against this is a sure loss. The only thing I can think of that might be able to combat it is some sort of highly aggressive build with a fast third as well, but as most of you know, no such thing exists. By the time you field a 3-3 army with 3 colossi, terran's on 2-2 bio with +2 hellbats, and your front line of zealots disappears in a flash, leaving ~12 stalkers and some sentries/colossi to get evaporated by marauder/viking. Meanwhile his third is up and has been fully saturated, while yours isn't established. All in all, has anyone found a new way to PvT in hots that does okay? Double forge seems to be a thing of the past. Do they go hellbats from the start or transition into them? I've only faced it as a transition from MMMGV and yeah it was very strong, though I was really thrown off because I had never played it before. I've only faced it once. The guy kept his first factory (rather than sending it as a scout), built a couple more factories after he started his +1 for mech attack upgrade upon finishing his armory (which he also started his 2/2 for Bio) and then just swapped out the reactors on the barracks for those factories and then pumped hellbats, ghosts, marauders and vikings to supplement the marauders he already had. It worked quite well and seemed like a very smooth transition. After watching the replay I thought about maybe trying phoenix/colossus/archon but never have played another game like that so I have never got to try it. The logic behind phoenixes in that composition being that phoenixes are really good against vikings and since he has no marines he has limited ground-to-air AA (only ghosts) so the phoenixes would be tricky to deal with, and since you would then have air dominance colossus would be much more potent. It would be similar to those old phoenix/colossus builds from waaaay back in 2010/early 2011.
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I'm having a lot of trouble dealing with hellbat/marauder/medivac as a mid to late game composition. Even supply, even upgrades, no blunders in army control, but it's hard to find a composition that can fight against it. Neither storm or collosi are great at dealing with pure hellbat/marauder since they both have fairly high health. You can't go heavy on zealots because they just get taken out quickly by hellbats. You can't go heavy stalker because they only trade evenly-ish with hellbats and get shredded by marauders. Theoretically air could counter the whole composition, but I don't know if it's even plausible to make that switch. Good sentry control might be good at dealing with the hellbats short range, but I'm kind of at a loss as to how to deal with this, especially if they add in vikings/ghosts.
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United States8476 Posts
On April 20 2013 14:29 ThaReckoning wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2013 14:18 bertu wrote:On April 20 2013 12:55 ThaReckoning wrote:
Anybody had any luck beating marauder/ghost/viking/hellbat? In my experience, double forge against this is a sure loss. The only thing I can think of that might be able to combat it is some sort of highly aggressive build with a fast third as well, but as most of you know, no such thing exists. By the time you field a 3-3 army with 3 colossi, terran's on 2-2 bio with +2 hellbats, and your front line of zealots disappears in a flash, leaving ~12 stalkers and some sentries/colossi to get evaporated by marauder/viking. Meanwhile his third is up and has been fully saturated, while yours isn't established. All in all, has anyone found a new way to PvT in hots that does okay? Double forge seems to be a thing of the past. Replays? I don't see why double forge would be a sure loss. How is he delaying your third for so long? There seems to be something else going on in the games other than the composition. You still can get storm and high immortal count while going with double forge (as long as you don't make many colossus and stalkers too early), it was popular in PL at the end of WOL. Maybe If you see him going for marauder/hellbat/viking, try switching out of colossus/blink stalker in favor of faster storm, or at least archons/immortal if he is containing you in your natural. You can delay 3/3 to get enough gas, I suppose. But it's better if we could see replays. I've never seem the exact situation you mentioned in a pro game. It's just a bio opener into that composition. Terran delaying protoss's third is nothing new, it's normal. You can't move out and take a third before you get 2-3 colossi because of how strong drop play is. I don't think that going with templar is a good idea, the composition is way too tanky for that. Immortals are also a soft option because of the EMP. I don't have any replays offhand, but it's just standard terran bio shenanigans vs a double forge robo opener into that composition. The last time I played against it I didn't even take any probe damage from widow mine + bio drops, and still just got smashed by the macro lead + extremely cost efficient army that terran seems to get by default with that composition.
Double forge is more popular now than it was at the end of WoL as you can safely get an earlier double forge with the MSC. Also, transition into templar with a colossi opening isn't as popular for a variety of reasons. The current metagame is Terran dropping, delaying the Protoss third to take an extremely fast third themselves. Then, they do a 3 base 2-1 or 2-2 timing with or without SCV pulls that attempts to kill the Protoss.
Rain is perhaps the biggest proponent of this double forge style and specifically gears his style to defend this push. Watch games such as Rain vs Flash on Neo Planet S from Proleague, Rain vs Last from Proleague, or Rain vs Innovation on Whirlwind from GSL.
On April 20 2013 15:47 SteveNick wrote:
I'm having a lot of trouble dealing with hellbat/marauder/medivac as a mid to late game composition. Even supply, even upgrades, no blunders in army control, but it's hard to find a composition that can fight against it. Neither storm or collosi are great at dealing with pure hellbat/marauder since they both have fairly high health. You can't go heavy on zealots because they just get taken out quickly by hellbats. You can't go heavy stalker because they only trade evenly-ish with hellbats and get shredded by marauders. Theoretically air could counter the whole composition, but I don't know if it's even plausible to make that switch. Good sentry control might be good at dealing with the hellbats short range, but I'm kind of at a loss as to how to deal with this, especially if they add in vikings/ghosts.
Without watching a replay, I can't tell of the specific mistakes you make. However, from your description, it seems like it's not a composition issue you're having but rather a positioning issue. Engaging in late game TvP when both players have great army compositions and full upgrades will never work as the defender will almost always win.
Instead, focus on templar flanks and forcing the Terran out of position. You should be flanking with high templar, using observers as spotters and securing positions with high templars and cannons. Meanwhile, use drops and pylon warp-ins to force your Terran opponent out of position. If you see him out of position, go kill a base. Basically, you want to pull your opponent in as many directions until he breaks.
Actually, just read the OP of this thread on this topic as it has an excellent answer. The addition of hellbats in HotS makes almost no difference.
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Hello everyone!
Currently Masters on NA but have been attempting to break into Masters on KR. Currently doing decent but sort of plateaued at the top of Diamond.
I've uploaded some replays; could someone please go through them with me and point out where I should be doing what?
http://drop.sc/325684
PvZ: I open Gate FE into robo, scouting mutas and drop down triple stargate. 3x stargate gets scouted so I assume he's not commiting too much into Mutas. I intercept them and kill them off with minimal losses. I proceed to take a third and fourth and tech into Colossus Void ray but his switch into Muta Corruptor at the time destroys me as I overmake Colossus. Is that my only mistake?
http://drop.sc/325685
PvZ:
I attempt to take a third in PvZ with tempests. I think I over made them. Maybe a couple of carriers? Or is the overall build not really going to work at all as long as they hit a hydra timing (with or without corruptors and/or vipers)
http://drop.sc/325687
PvP:
Phoenix battle - I eventually destroy his phoenix count but did not scout the archon switch in time. Chargelot archon gateway army destroys me before critical mass of void rays.
http://drop.sc/325688
PvP:
Another phoenix battle that I win but I did not anticipate the DTs. He destroys 2 bases worth of economy.
http://drop.sc/325689
PvT:
Typical DT drop style into AoE late game. I've never really been able to comfortably hit the actual timing of 7:22.
http://drop.sc/325690
PvT:
DT drop opening gets scouted, I proceed to cancel it and go straight into colossus. 3/3 timing push.
I don't seem to vs that many Ts on ladder so my replays are limited.
I welcome all critical analysis. Thanks!
Envisage
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I like to use chargelot/HT/archon comps, and I've done pretty well with them, but I'm never sure what ratio of HTs to archons to make. In PVP i usually make almost exclusively archons, but in PVT I always feel like they get kited and I want every storm I can get. PVZ is kinda in the middle. In general, though, I always feel like I have a ton of zealots and only a handful of archons (even in PVP). I haven't been watching as many pro games as I'd like but I haven't seen much use of this comp so I don't have much of a guide. Anyone else have experience with this or know any guidelines? Thanks
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Italy12246 Posts
Depends on the stage of the game and the matchup, but generally 4-6 templar in your main army plus a 2-6 extra spread out at your bases to defend them (especially in PvT, it's not as necessary in other matchups).
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Teoita: Earlier, you mentioned that as far as PvP all-ins go, 3-Gate Stargate, DT into Chargelot/Archon, and Blink were all solid. Are there any particular ones you'd recommend out of those three? What are the reasons to pick one over the others?
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Italy12246 Posts
Blink is pretty map dependant, the other two are fairly similar. Chargelot/Archon might be better on big maps since you just use warpgate units.
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EPT
