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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders. |
On April 19 2013 15:57 vhapter wrote:
Is there any way to deny a drone from scouting my tech in PvZ? I have to delay my tech if I wait for my first stalker or sentry to kill it. Delaying a stargate makes your timing worse, especially if you go void ray or oracle before phoenixes. The timing of a robo can be crucial too, and if you're going immortal sentry all-in it's pretty much paramount against a good zerg. So what's the right course of action?
Do you go FFE or gate FE?
With a proper FFE it shouldn't be too difficult to hide your tech. With your wall set up, no drone should ever enter your base (unless a drone hides in your base). You also should build your tech building far away from overlord spots. After that, spread pylons at the edge of your base. Considering that, you instantly can see incoming overlords or nydus all-ins.
On daybreak, for example, I like to hide my stargate behind my main mineral line with one stalker in the main to deny overlord scouts.
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But if the Zerg drone scouts, he can get into your base before you've walled off, and then it can scout everything until killed. Having a wall at your front doesn't help against a drone that's already in your main.
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Yeah, I'm talking about an early drone scout. No drone should be able to get in from 4:20 on since a cannon will be up. I'm still diamond, so people do all sorts of weird stuff. This guy tried to block my nexus today and kept his drone inside my base afterwards.
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On April 19 2013 15:57 vhapter wrote:
Is there any way to deny a drone from scouting my tech in PvZ? I have to delay my tech if I wait for my first stalker or sentry to kill it. Delaying a stargate makes your timing worse, especially if you go void ray or oracle before phoenixes. The timing of a robo can be crucial too, and if you're going immortal sentry all-in it's pretty much paramount against a good zerg. So what's the right course of action?
You are overthinking this. It's not the end of the world to get your tech scouted by the drone. If he sees a robo, you could be going for immortal all-in, or early expand, or warp prism pressure. Stargate could mean constant void rays into early third, or 4-5 phoenix into whatever, or double stargate phoenix, or 4-gate void ray pressure. Zerg can't know which that early (before the drone gets killed by a stalker).
The scout he does with the overlords later is more relevant, since he can see your gateway count and gas timings and confirm that the tech building finished.
Just don't do a build that requires you to be supersneaky with tech (fast DTs, basically). If you want to try something fun, build a robo where the drone can see, kill the drone, cancel and build a stargate to go for surprise phoenix. Or visible twilight into cancel and early third. Or 4-gate +1 pressure without a tech building before the gates. But I would just do whatever I was planning earlier and enjoy the advantage I had because he drone scouted so early.
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Hello, I'm a top master Terran.
Just dropping by to ask why protoss do not go for two base templar instead of colossi? I have almost never seen templar first on ladder (bar two base templar all ins). Protoss could defend their bases from drops better especially since the advent of turbovacs.
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On April 19 2013 19:38 herMan wrote:
Hello, I'm a top master Terran.
Just dropping by to ask why protoss do not go for two base templar instead of colossi? I have almost never seen templar first on ladder (bar two base templar all ins). Protoss could defend their bases from drops better especially since the advent of turbovacs.
I am wondering why other Protoss don't do this as well. I started doing Templar before Colossi a while back and so far I haven't lost a single game against Terran, whereas before that I was struggling greatly. Fast Charge and Storm with a lot of Observers and a possibility for Immortals feels like a lot stronger than Colossi, which can be utterly destroyed with a small amount of Vikings early on (especially in the form of all-ins).
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Italy12248 Posts
Templar openings are a bit harder to do and more unforgiving. If you play perfectly, yes, it's stronger vs drops, but imo it's also easier to die in stupid ways (templar being caught ouf of position etc).
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With a Stargate opening in PvZ involving 4 Phoenix, how much damage should I be doing? Like, I'm not sure whether the amount of damage I do in any given game is "okay" or "good" or "bad". I know I don't need to do that much damage, and I also know that picking off nothing would be bad, but I'm not sure about anything in between.
Another few Stargate questions:
How should my play differ if I do a lot of damage vs. doing almost no damage with Phoenixes?
When should I get my Twilight Council?
Why am I supposed to get +1 Weapons so ridiculously fast when I don't get +1 Armor for ages? (Using these timings: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=383628#2.1.1)
When should I be getting my Templar Archives to tech towards Storm?
Should I be cutting Colossi at 3? A Zerg friend of mine told me I should, because Storm was better vs. comps that included Hydras or Mutas. (I.e, all of them.)
What should I do with my Phoenix later in the game, if he isn't getting Mutas? Is it worth keeping them with my army if he gets Corruptors, just to try and soak some shots?
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On April 19 2013 05:51 LegionSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2013 05:11 Teoita wrote:
I got some notes on all his stargate stuff at MLG. There's a guide somwhere but if im not wrong it's not super detailed (as in, it's not recommended threads/TL strat level).
Opening BO:
13 Gate
16 Double Gas, 3 probes on each
18 Core (scout on 4player maps, no scout on 2 player)
20 Pylon in a corner
21 Stalker, WG
23 MSC, nonstop probes
Off gateway: stalker/stalker/sentry
28 Stargate at third pylon
Poke with 2Stalker/MSC and scout
42ish Nexus
6:50, 2 extra Gates
non stop oracles
7:30 extra gates, 38 total probes
push at 5 oracles I have been having massive success with this in the diamond league. It has busted every terran except ones that put up 3 bunkers.... which I see poking with my stalker. I then expand and use the extra oracles for harassment and drop cleanup. edit: typo
Thanks for the build order! Would you be willing to share a replay?
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Italy12248 Posts
That's MC's build; i believe he used to get the +1 that fast because it made his build more deceiving. You want the twilight council when +1 armor is halfway done.
I disagree on cutting colossi. Colossi and Storm are equally good vs hydras, storm is better vs muta/ling (although it's far, far worse in hots T_T), and colossi are much much better vs swarm host. You should go phoenix range vs mutas anyway.
As far as teching to storm, do it as a reaction to his hive. You need to protect your colossi from vipers. Once you are on 4 base economy go for storm too.
Yeah it's worth keeping them alive. They are very useful especially vs early corruptor timings when you just dont have the stalker count to protect the colossi.
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Oh, yes, something else I forgot to ask: What's better in the HotS meta? Stargate - robo - 4 gates or Stargate - 4 gates - robo?
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Italy12248 Posts
Im not sure they are both ok tbh.
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Hello,
I'm a top diamond player and just when on a 4 losing streak -it happens sadly  -
Anyways just played two PvP matches of those four and had one guy had gone gate, fast double gas while blocking one of my gas. He eventually went into DTs and won the game with that. Out of curiosity is there any other build a person may go as a protoss if they do this fast double gas at the start? Just would like to know for future reference so I can be better prepared.
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As well I though my counter harass and hold w colo worked but apparently not against Swarm Host this game can anyone look and give me a overview of what had gone wrong and what to fix?
I did a 2 robo colo with warp ins into his base to try and slow him down and shut him down. Eventually my army withered and his still stood pretty strong.
http://drop.sc/325458
**Sorry for double post forgot to add this to above point **
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What are some all-ins that are working for Protoss at the moment? I'm thinking of diversifying my game in order to start playing in some tournaments. I know that "What are some recommended all-ins" are answered in the OP, but I think it's a bit out of date.
I'm thinking of using 3-Gate Stargate as my PvP all-in, since it seems like the most powerful one available that can reliably kill someone who expands too quickly, but I have no idea for PvT and PvZ any more. I tried the Blink all-in, but Widow Mines make that a hazardous proposition. As for PvZ, with all the quick hydra play, I don't know what all-ins, if any, could work any more.
Additionally, does anyone know where I can look to try and find build orders for these all-ins? I know I'm not allowed to ask for build orders, but I don't know where else to look for them.
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On April 19 2013 19:57 FLUFFYPenguin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2013 19:38 herMan wrote:
Hello, I'm a top master Terran.
Just dropping by to ask why protoss do not go for two base templar instead of colossi? I have almost never seen templar first on ladder (bar two base templar all ins). Protoss could defend their bases from drops better especially since the advent of turbovacs. I am wondering why other Protoss don't do this as well. I started doing Templar before Colossi a while back and so far I haven't lost a single game against Terran, whereas before that I was struggling greatly. Fast Charge and Storm with a lot of Observers and a possibility for Immortals feels like a lot stronger than Colossi, which can be utterly destroyed with a small amount of Vikings early on (especially in the form of all-ins). I think opening templar will become popular as time goes on. It is tricky but it is very powerful. I have been doing it too and it seems like it works very well, especially in combination with double forge. I get charge before templar archives because charge zealots + immortals seem to be able to hold the earlier standard pressures quite comfortably. Then I get templar and a third. If he is moving out right when my archive is just finishing I make archons instead of waiting for storm and that usually is enough to scare them back and let me get storm. My TvP has been sitting over 70% so far. I only really lose to crazy one base stuff that I have never seen before.
I do think that will change once terrans stop playing like WoL (but with maybe a mine drop) actually start using hellbats (why they hesitate to makes no sense to me. They get healed by medics, deal with zealots easily and don't require nearly as much micro). Charge zealots become worthless once those come out. The scariest game I played was a guy who transitioned from MMM with vikings and ghosts to hellbat/marauder/medivac/ghost/viking (he just changed his mineral dump essentially. He swapped a few reactored barracks with a few factories. He didn't throw away his first factory like most terrans do so he only had to make a couple more).
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Italy12248 Posts
In PvZ all the "standard" allins are actually still viable because the MSC makes them stronger. On paper it's possible to get swarm hosts up in time for some of the slower ones but it's never been done in a pro game.
PvT: Void ray or Oracle busts.
PvP: you can also go DT into chargelot/archon. Blink allins are also strong thanks to the msc spotting high grounds (this is map dependant ofc).
Afaik there are no guides up in TL strat as of now.
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YAAAAAAY finally made Master after being diamond for over a year. Thanks for all the help people! Now I have to work through a 400 point bonus pool. I probably shouldn't be in Master with how terrible I am but I guess it is motivation to improve more. Interestingly it placed me at around rank 50, which I don't think is accurate. I should be at the bottom at best, or still in Diamond hahaha.
Also, when doing an insanely fast 4gate, is 10 or 11 better for building the gateway? As I have said in the past, I am not a huge fan of late game PvP so I like mixing it up a bunch. I've noticed people are doing anti-DT builds now but a lot of these builds are weak to a fast 4gate.
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Italy12248 Posts
Brotoss high five for master's.
I think if you 10/11 gate you might as well 3gate, or 12 gate when 4gating. Not sure though i haven't done those kinds of builds in a while.
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On April 20 2013 06:45 Teoita wrote:
Brotoss high five for master's.
I think if you 10/11 gate you might as well 3gate, or 12 gate when 4gating. Not sure though i haven't done those kinds of builds in a while. Thanks! Yeah I was doing 11gate 3 gate super fast rush for a while. I still have to experiment and see what the differences are in terms of how fast you can get warpgate done while still keeping a decent income. I always feel like I am lacking money with 10. Will see how it goes. Thanks!
Of course I won't be doing that every game, just mixing it in once in a while on maps where people are more likely to play greedy.
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EPT
