EPTThe HotS Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 60
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Jomppa
1225 Posts
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Salv
Canada3083 Posts
You're a Protoss, you open with two gate robo and you scout phoenix so you expand. Turns out, your opponent is going four gates with no expansion and uses his phoenix to snipe your MSC and then lift immortals while he all-ins you. What do you do to defend this? I made almost non-stop stalkers and kept them with my MSC but it didn't matter, that MSC core was going down. So because you can't rely on the MSC to use photon overcharge on the nex, you need to repel his army somehow. Is it best just to make gateways yourself? Is it a good idea to make immortals even if the phoenix lift them? What about cannons? | ||
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hzflank
United Kingdom2991 Posts
On April 18 2013 03:15 Supah wrote: Do 1 gate expands PvZ involve 2 gas, or 1? Constant probe production? Or, when to cut them? Either a single gas at 13 or 2 gas at 15, with 2/2. I use a single gas at 13. Constant probe production until you have 16 on minerals and your gas full, plus as many as you need on the map. Then cut probes to add any buildings that you want. | ||
Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
On April 18 2013 04:33 Salv wrote: Hypothetical situation time! You're a Protoss, you open with two gate robo and you scout phoenix so you expand. Turns out, your opponent is going four gates with no expansion and uses his phoenix to snipe your MSC and then lift immortals while he all-ins you. What do you do to defend this? I made almost non-stop stalkers and kept them with my MSC but it didn't matter, that MSC core was going down. So because you can't rely on the MSC to use photon overcharge on the nex, you need to repel his army somehow. Is it best just to make gateways yourself? Is it a good idea to make immortals even if the phoenix lift them? What about cannons? 2gate robo expo is pretty much a bo loss vs a committed phoenix 4gate. Your best bet is to cancel your nexus and hold your ramp, while teching to blink. It's also useful to fully wall your ramp with gates/pylons. Make sure to be active with your obs and know wether he's going for a stargate timing or a macro build (indicators are ofc gateway count, probe production, lack of a robo and/or nexus). | ||
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
I might be wrong, but it seems to me a faster third (stargate -> gate -> robo) while skipping immortals in favor of colossi could hold off a roach hydra army better than stargate -> robo -> gate. Not having immortals might be painful anyway though. So, is there any consensus regarding these transitions? Also, what's the-in game time you get a third with stargate -> gate -> robo and stargate -> robo -> gate? I usually aim for a third at 8:40 when I don't go stargate, but stargate builds seem to delay your third quite a bit and I haven't noticed a trend in terms of timings. The longer you stay on 2 bases, the more dangerous is seems to take a third. If I take too long to move out, it feels like I'm falling behind because the zerg player is already on 3 bases. Yeah, PvZ is very confusing to me. One last question, regarding both stargate and robo builds. When is it the right time to build my extra gateways and cannons at my third, and how many of each should I build? I think I got into the habit of overbuilding these to feel safe, but I end up skipping several warp in rounds. If I'm playing on Daybreak, I'll try to wall off both my ramp and do that gate/cannon wall by one of the geysers at my third. If I'm playing on Cloud Kingdom, I once again wall off my ramp and make a few cannons + gateways at my third as well. I guess I end up cutting not only units, but even probes in order to make a double simcity asap (though new maps don't allow for this, which makes things confusing to me too). | ||
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FlyingBeer
United States262 Posts
On April 18 2013 03:15 Supah wrote: Do 1 gate expands PvZ involve 2 gas, or 1? Constant probe production? Or, when to cut them? Possible gate-first builds: Gasless Gate-Expand (9 pylon, 13 gate, 16 pylon, 18 nexus with no probe cut (MC style) or 17 pylon, 17 nexus with brief probe cut on 17 (Naniwa style)) 1 Gas Gate-Core Expand: 9 pylon, 13 gate, 15 gas, 16 pylon, 17/18 core, zealot, stalker, pylon, nexus, MsC, 2nd gas (the optimal order for those 6 units/buildings can vary a lot depending on how fast you want your 3 units vs. Nexus timing, and how much gas you need for whatever your follow-up is) 2 Fast Gas Gate-Core Expand: Several pros are doing this, but I'm not sure why. The 2 gas before core build is designed to get tech out fast, but there's no value to it if you expand before starting the stargate, robo, or twilight council. The earliest I would consider a 2nd gas for PvZ is right after the core. I think it might be a meta-game thing or they just haven't had the time to optimize their gate-core builds and are playing based on habit. | ||
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ThaReckoning
United States197 Posts
On April 18 2013 03:34 Ben... wrote: Anyone else facing a lot of early pool builds from Zerg lately? I've been seeing it on pro streams a lot and faced it a few times yesterday. Most of the time it is early pool (6 or 7), make 6 lings, then just drone like crazy and expand then go 2 base mutas or hydra/ling bust. I actually used to do something very similar to that way back when in WoL when I used to play both Zerg and Protoss. It was very powerful for a while on certain maps. The thing that I have seen a few complaints about is that with these maps with the jumbo wall-offs needed, it is almost unstoppable to not have at least some damage done if you go forge at the natural, though with in-base forge you are perfectly safe usually, but it slows you down a lot. On the old WoL maps you could at least to a complete wall-in if you cut probes then you would be safe and ahead. You can't really do that now on the new maps. In GSL they added raised neutral depots to solve this issue. I wish they would do that for the ladder versions of maps too. Stuff like this is making me really want to go back to gateway expands. I did those for the last few months of WoL and they were a ton of fun. Plus with the MSC you can pressure way better than in WoL. It will keep Zerg way more honest than FFE. I've already switched back to 1g FE to be honest with you. Usually after I hold an early pool I just go 3g > expo and keep the pressure up to keep the drone count down. Imagine the old shark mode reinvented and you get the idea. | ||
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Ben...
Canada3485 Posts
On April 18 2013 08:25 ThaReckoning wrote: Yeah that is why I have been thinking about it. Most zergs won't be comfortable and will play safer, and if they do try and still play like I was doing FFE then I can punish them and force units. When I was doing 1gate expo or Nony's 2gate expo at the end of WoL, most Zergs had absolutely no idea what to do in response, so I was getting all-inned a lot, which was great because that build was so sentry-heavy. The 2gate expo had a pressure component (you would get some sentries and zealots, expand, make a wall, and take all your units but one sentry and pressure. It worked fairly well) and with the mothership core that would be even stronger. My only concern is how big some of the maps are now, I think 2gate expand would be out of the question so it would be 1gate expand. Though the mothership core kinda made that 2gate build irrelevant anyway since the mothership core can cover the loss of one gateway's worth of units easily (it basically gave an extra sentry or two really fast). And yeah, early pool was basically a build order loss against gateway expandsI've already switched back to 1g FE to be honest with you. Usually after I hold an early pool I just go 3g > expo and keep the pressure up to keep the drone count down. Imagine the old shark mode reinvented and you get the idea. After my first final is done tomorrow I am going to start giving it a go. I was quite comfortable with it in WoL so it shouldn't be too much of a change. | ||
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XupinatoR
Spain125 Posts
When I try to play standard, the typical 1 gate expand, I am almost always succesful at repeling every engagement or "event" (drops, double drops, drops + pushes...) that happens on the map without taking damage, but since the terran can retreat so easily (I mean, you have to be quite retarded to loose medevacs with that boost), I end up loosing to a big push in mid game or in late game, where i can't land any storm because even if i'm good with feedbacks, emps are much more easy, and there are too many vikings to make my colossi cost efficient. So here is the problem, even if i can defend quite well against drops and pushes, i fell like the terran doesn't give a fuck, since he looses nothing, he just stims or boosts away and I sit there defending while the terran takes his third and everything he wants and ends up overwhelming me with a big push. Any advise? My pvt ratio is starting to look horrible, and it was probably my best match up in WOL, so i'm starting to be very frustrated >.< | ||
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Salv
Canada3083 Posts
On April 18 2013 04:51 Teoita wrote: 2gate robo expo is pretty much a bo loss vs a committed phoenix 4gate. Your best bet is to cancel your nexus and hold your ramp, while teching to blink. It's also useful to fully wall your ramp with gates/pylons. Make sure to be active with your obs and know wether he's going for a stargate timing or a macro build (indicators are ofc gateway count, probe production, lack of a robo and/or nexus). Well that kind of sucks, that it might be a BO loss I mean. I thought about adding cannons to my front. I think I would have time for that. | ||
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Lazermonkey
Sweden2176 Posts
On April 18 2013 04:51 Teoita wrote: Master and frequently phoenix 4-gating player : ).2gate robo expo is pretty much a bo loss vs a committed phoenix 4gate. Your best bet is to cancel your nexus and hold your ramp, while teching to blink. It's also useful to fully wall your ramp with gates/pylons. Make sure to be active with your obs and know wether he's going for a stargate timing or a macro build (indicators are ofc gateway count, probe production, lack of a robo and/or nexus). I strongly disagree. Phoenix 4-gate is a strong all in vs 2 gate robo but is in no way a build order counter to it. It was even possibly to beat it in WoL but mothership core and no high ground warp ins makes it slightly easier in HotS. It is hard to give to much advice without seeing replay though. But in general, don't make any immortals if you scout phoenix 4-gate. Make pure gateway units instead. As for nexus cancel, your nexus should be done when you see that he is all-ining you so that generally isn't a choise you can make. And if you sac your expo you will be equal bases, but he will have superior army and tech. The best option is to defend your expo. Also, blink is generally bad as the game will usually be over by the time you get it (if you go reactive blink, that is). But as I said, please put up a replay for more specific advice : ) | ||
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LegionSC2
9 Posts
1) PVZ, are there some diamond-master level replays that show me some 1gFE play? 2) PVZ I often do a 7 gate pressure timing attack... but unless I kill 1-2 (or all) of their bases, I don't get colossus fast enough to kill the roach hoard that come to my base. Is that just the fault of my timing attack? or is there a better way/build to transition. I don't quite do MC's 7 gate all in as I don't cut probes. (so I hit them around 8m) 3) PVZ, if I do a FFE without pressure, I have problems vs a two base quick swarmhost. Any replays of a protoss beating this at diamond/masters level? I can't see mto get a critical mass enough of colossus before they also get corruptors. One thing I haven't tried yet is proxy zealot/DT harass with a warp prism. Is that valid? 4) I have less problems pvt, and I am starting to figure out pvp well-- although diamond/master level replay packs on those matchups would be useful too.  Thank you. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
2) Yeah well 7gate is an allin, as you said you need to kill at least a hatch or you are kinda screwed. Imo might as well go balls out on the timing. If you just want to do light pressure, try 4gate +1 zealot or 4gate phoenix/zealot+1 off FFE, or maybe just a 4-5 gate timing with recall off gateway expand. Your goal is to force units and delay his tech and drone count rather than killing a hatch, but if the opponent messes up (or is worse than you) you can kill them outright. 3) JYP vs (some zerg, dwf halp!) from proleague on Whirlwind. JYP made that build look beyond awful, completely stomped it to the ground. For replays in general, check out http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=408248 | ||
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Tokikong
35 Posts
Lately I'm having trouble with Terran Mech builds. I really don't what composition to get If I go normal Zealot/templar/colossus composition will get wreckes by hellbats. and mass Immortals doesn' seem to work too because hellbats shredder the shields of the immortals down and the siegetanks behind will kill em. If so has anyone tips for me? Especially what unitcomposition to make. Replay :http://drop.sc/325204 | ||
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Ben...
Canada3485 Posts
On April 19 2013 02:50 LegionSC2 wrote: I am at that transition level (I am top diamond and play a mix of diamond and master) as well and will be doing 1gate expo versus Zerg this afternoon. If I have some good replays I'll post them. 1gate FE is a ton of fun, at least it was in WoL.Hi, as of last night I was a NA rank 6 (683points) diamond. I'd really like to bust into masters just once... so I'd appreciate some advice. 1) PVZ, are there some diamond-master level replays that show me some 1gFE play? 2) PVZ I often do a 7 gate pressure timing attack... but unless I kill 1-2 (or all) of their bases, I don't get colossus fast enough to kill the roach hoard that come to my base. Is that just the fault of my timing attack? or is there a better way/build to transition. I don't quite do MC's 7 gate all in as I don't cut probes. (so I hit them around 8m) 3) PVZ, if I do a FFE without pressure, I have problems vs a two base quick swarmhost. Any replays of a protoss beating this at diamond/masters level? I can't see mto get a critical mass enough of colossus before they also get corruptors. One thing I haven't tried yet is proxy zealot/DT harass with a warp prism. Is that valid? 4) I have less problems pvt, and I am starting to figure out pvp well-- although diamond/master level replay packs on those matchups would be useful too. Thank you. 2) I have no clue, I'm sure someone better will give a better response, but I would think you would need to do huge amounts of damage with a 7gate for it to be worth while. 3) I have been having the same issue. I was playing as Zerg doing those 2base nydus/swarm host builds to try and understand them (I used to play both Zerg and Protoss about equal amount of time and was a low master Zerg) and it seems like harass is quite important in stopping those builds. Of the games I lost with 2 base swarmhost (this was at EU diamond level because my zerg is so rusty), almost all of them involved getting harassed in some way with zealots or DTs. They force Zerg to split their focus, and potentially send units home. One protoss timed it so he sent in a bunch of zealots into my natural, which forced me to send home some units through the nydus, he then busted out, killed the exit to my nydus, and managed to push me back. I thought it was quite potent and will be trying that in the future. 4) My PvP is garbage (I usually just do DT builds and I either win with them or lose. I don't have the patience for that mass voidray vs. HT/archon stuff) and I play the most boring, standard PvT you can find so my replays would not be useful. My PvT is sitting at 70%. All I do is 1gate expand into robo and 2 gateways and then decide what to do upon scouting. I usually just do double forge with the goal of a macro game. It works well, is really strong, and rewards playing smart. It is also a lot more fun than fast colossus styles. | ||
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Bahamuth
134 Posts
On April 19 2013 03:26 Teoita wrote: 3) JYP vs (some zerg, dwf halp!) from proleague on Whirlwind. JYP made that build look beyond awful, completely stomped it to the ground. If you don't have acces to the VODs/are lazy, he opened standard with Stargate into 4gate Robo. He immediately got a Robo Bay after the Robo and cut Stargate units at 4-5. Chrono out some Colossi and use your scouting probe to warp Zealots to his natural. He gets 3ish Colossi and a bunch of Stalkers and just kills all Swarm Hosts. | ||
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KrazyTrumpet
United States2520 Posts
What is the build order for the Oracle all in MC likes to do in PvT? I know the general idea behind the strategy, but I would like a specific build and I can't seem to find it....anywhere. Unless I'm a complete idiot and have missed it, there aren't any threads on it that I can see =/ | ||
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Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
Opening BO: 13 Gate 16 Double Gas, 3 probes on each 18 Core (scout on 4player maps, no scout on 2 player) 20 Pylon in a corner 21 Stalker, WG 23 MSC, nonstop probes Off gateway: stalker/stalker/sentry 28 Stargate at third pylon Poke with 2Stalker/MSC and scout 42ish Nexus 6:50, 2 extra Gates non stop oracles 7:30 extra gates, 38 total probes push at 5 oracles | ||
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KrazyTrumpet
United States2520 Posts
edit: oh, this is a 2 base build? I thought he did a one base 3 oracle all in at some point | ||
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Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
same opening cut at 23 probes, no expo mass stalkers off 4gate use first oracle with msc to try and snipe marines/scv's push with 2 oracles my notes OP ^_^ | ||
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