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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders. |
http://drop.sc/324597
Pretty standard PvT, looking for general tips specifically in terms of positioning vs drops on Neo planet as well as how I can apply a bit more pressure in the midgame than I did as well as advice more more effectively defending drops (like hotkeys etc).
I felt like my third wasn't too late and was able to saturate it because my army was far from my main (to which he doom dropped it) but didn't take a whole lot of damage outside the first drop and that I did a decent job in terms of not forgetting pylons and not engaging like an idiot and teching to templar but basically turtled on 3 base because of drops. Also i felt like gates 7-10 were a bit late but it may have been because I got dropped and wasn't able to warp in.
Also, how do i deal with sentries and templars on the same hotkey? Or should I separate them?
edit: It seems like im either playing a whole bunch of zergs in a row, or a whole bunch of terrans. Played like 6-7 Z last night in a row, played 3-4 T in a row now. Is that just luck or is MM inclined to give you a certain race based on w/l or recently played, etc?
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On April 17 2013 09:08 S7EFEN wrote:http://drop.sc/324597Pretty standard PvT, looking for general tips specifically in terms of positioning vs drops on Neo planet as well as how I can apply a bit more pressure in the midgame than I did as well as advice more more effectively defending drops (like hotkeys etc). I felt like my third wasn't too late and was able to saturate it because my army was far from my main (to which he doom dropped it) but didn't take a whole lot of damage outside the first drop and that I did a decent job in terms of not forgetting pylons and not engaging like an idiot and teching to templar but basically turtled on 3 base because of drops. Also i felt like gates 7-10 were a bit late but it may have been because I got dropped and wasn't able to warp in. Also, how do i deal with sentries and templars on the same hotkey? Or should I separate them? edit: It seems like im either playing a whole bunch of zergs in a row, or a whole bunch of terrans. Played like 6-7 Z last night in a row, played 3-4 T in a row now. Is that just luck or is MM inclined to give you a certain race based on w/l or recently played, etc?
I wouldn't post a rep of you winning if you want constructive criticism on how to improve. However, some tips:
Don't put your tech where it is. He even snipes your templar archives and you just put it right back in the same spot. Hide your tech on the cliff overlooking the natural.
You need separate hotkeys for each part of your army that accomplishes something different, but you can cheat. I use 3 for zealot/sentry/immortal/archon, 2 for stalker/msc, 5 for phoenixes or voids, 1 for templar or oracles.
Also, your build is incredibly greedy, as you probably know.
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On April 16 2013 12:49 Mellon wrote:
There was some discussion earlier about PVZ openers, can we discuss gateway opening, in which situation it's better, on what maps and against what builds?
There's a quite few pro-level Protoss that are dabbling in 1gate FE now, including SaSe, Sage, STATE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=loT_kQJTVyU), soO (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=407020¤tpage=36#704). I think it's becoming more popular, though the jury is still out on whether or not you can always 1g FE or it's something you should mix in with FFE, or perhaps it's map dependent.
I personally have been experimenting with 1gate FEs with pretty decent success in mid-masters, though I'm not sure how much of it is just because Zergs aren't used to it. I think the key is to use recall efficiently to keep the Zerg on their toes with zealot/sentry pokes and cause overreactions/underreactions (see the STATE video for an example).
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I feel 1 Gate FEs work on 4 player maps, because on 2 player maps, the Zerg can just stream lings upon scouting it, and you can't take an expo at all because of that, and off of 2 Hatches, it's incredibly difficult to match production considering you won't know he's streaming lings until either that first Zealot gets overrun, or the lings are almost at your base already, coupled with the relatively late wall in at your natural; further, 4 player maps seem to have a lot more early pools, which a Gate expand absolutely crushes.
Questions:
1) PvP, 5/7 Stalker pressure, and then you go Robo because you're unsure if DTs or not. He goes SG instead, and takes a slightly slower expo than you. What's the best way to go about not losing to mass VRs? What timing should you be aiming for?
2) PvZ, Forge opener. Either in base, or not, doesn't matter. Zerg goes early Pool (8/9/10/11), and assume you take minimal to no Probe losses, but Zerg gets early speed. How do you take your expo in a timely manner? One Gate expand means you can get overrun with Lings, three Gates means your expo is already very delayed, and the Zerg is more than likely ahead in econ at this point. I have never tried 2 Gates, is that actually the magic number? How many Sentries to be "safe"? Stalkers? Zealots? How do you counter pressure in a timely manner without the Zerg actually just running into your natural and killing it (since you need to take the time to make a wall in your natural)?
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On April 17 2013 16:50 Supah wrote:
I feel 1 Gate FEs work on 4 player maps, because on 2 player maps, the Zerg can just stream lings upon scouting it, and you can't take an expo at all because of that, and off of 2 Hatches, it's incredibly difficult to match production considering you won't know he's streaming lings until either that first Zealot gets overrun, or the lings are almost at your base already, coupled with the relatively late wall in at your natural; further, 4 player maps seem to have a lot more early pools, which a Gate expand absolutely crushes.
Questions:
1) PvP, 5/7 Stalker pressure, and then you go Robo because you're unsure if DTs or not. He goes SG instead, and takes a slightly slower expo than you. What's the best way to go about not losing to mass VRs? What timing should you be aiming for?
2) PvZ, Forge opener. Either in base, or not, doesn't matter. Zerg goes early Pool (8/9/10/11), and assume you take minimal to no Probe losses, but Zerg gets early speed. How do you take your expo in a timely manner? One Gate expand means you can get overrun with Lings, three Gates means your expo is already very delayed, and the Zerg is more than likely ahead in econ at this point. I have never tried 2 Gates, is that actually the magic number? How many Sentries to be "safe"? Stalkers? Zealots? How do you counter pressure in a timely manner without the Zerg actually just running into your natural and killing it (since you need to take the time to make a wall in your natural)?
1) i dont think a robo follow up(after a pressure build like this) is the best choice in the current state of the game. It puts you in a bad spot vs fast stargate openings that can safetly defend the pressure and with 4+ phoenixes out on the map + msc, they can get a faster nexus than you.
I've been dong 5/7 stalker pressure almost every single pvp to see how it can affect players using too much chrono early on and how others defend it safetly off of 1 gate tech builds or fast expo builds. I always follow up with a stargate or rather, i spend my gas in this order: stalker/wg (same time), then the next two stalkers and then the msc. As soon as you get your next 150 gas(which will be right when the msc comes out), you spend it on the stargate.
When i push up the ramp, and hes using a ton of sentries to block me, i send in the msc to scout by itself. The msc wont die fast to a bunch of sentries. I would rather sacrifice 100 gas to confirm dark shrine or stargate so i know what i need first in that situation. I definitely do not want to build a oracle vs another stargate opener. If hes using a combination of stalker sentry, i continue to pressure the ramp to make him use more warp ins. You want to pay attention to see what hes warping in. Zealots? assume the worst and get an oracle out or sacrifice your msc to confirm his tech choice because you sure as hell aint getting up that ramp if hes spending gas to defend it.
Things to note: i don't like to have more than 7 stalkers for the pressure. Why? if hes defending his ramp, and he went a super greedy DT build, i'm not gona have units to defend my main. With the oracle out, and using the rest of my warp ins at home, i can defend any fast oracle/dt builds.
If you scout a robo opening, keep him pinned as long as you can at his ramp. He wont be able come down the ramp for a while if you make sentries and you can expand faster and have phoenixes out for map control.
2) You should be teching from your one base because you'll already be fully saturated before you want to put the nexus down, so use it to scout(i like to go stargate) for aggression or greediness. i like to defend off of 3 gates, but i usually go two gate nexus then another gate/tech. You want the msc and a few sentries(3-4) to expand pretty safely. You definitely dont want stalkers in that situation.
On those maps with the huge ramp, dont make your wall at ramp. Its way to vulnerable to mass ling follow ups. You want to have a wall in at your ramp leading to your main(standard 1g expand wall) and using a simcity that uses your nexus as part of the wall. This way, you'll be using less resources constructing the wall and having most of your army defending the mineral line. Using hallucination to scout actively during the mass ling to see his follow up.
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Some PvZ questions. All of these relate to a Stargate opening.
1) I've heard I should be doing a Zealot/Stalker/MsC poke. When should I get the MsC if I want to do this?
2) If I scout a fast third, should I skip the initial VR when going Stargate, and make 4-5 Phoenixes before my first Void? That is to say, is the initial VR defensive, or can it be used for offense, too? It seems unwieldy considering how much slower than my Phoenixes it is.
3) When going for Colossus/VR, should I fill up the army with Chargelots? It feels as though I never seem to have much gas spare for Stalkers.
4) When should I take my fourth, with a Colossus/VR style? The intention is to switch into Skytoss once I've secured my fourth.
5) What should the ultimate Skytoss army look like?
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On April 17 2013 18:42 Salivanth wrote:
Some PvZ questions. All of these relate to a Stargate opening.
1) I've heard I should be doing a Zealot/Stalker/MsC poke. When should I get the MsC if I want to do this?
2) If I scout a fast third, should I skip the initial VR when going Stargate, and make 4-5 Phoenixes before my first Void? That is to say, is the initial VR defensive, or can it be used for offense, too? It seems unwieldy considering how much slower than my Phoenixes it is.
3) When going for Colossus/VR, should I fill up the army with Chargelots? It feels as though I never seem to have much gas spare for Stalkers.
4) When should I take my fourth, with a Colossus/VR style? The intention is to switch into Skytoss once I've secured my fourth.
5) What should the ultimate Skytoss army look like?
1) I'm going to assume this is off a FFE, if you do a standard FFE opener with double gas at around 19-20 supply, you should have 200 or almost 200 gas when core finishes. If you don't get a super early +1 then you can afford MsC, stalker, and warpgate tech as soon as the core finishes.
2) Most players do indeed skip voids and go straight for phoenix against standard 3 base zerg.
3) This is situational, in general my suggestion would be to instead use cannons/expansions as mineral dumps, or warp prism/proxy pylon zealot harass as mineral dumps instead of having zealots in your main army. However, if you're facing a composition that doesn't have roach or swarm host (maybe something like hydra/viper?), then it's not bad to have zealots in your main army either.
4) Again obviously situational depending on what the zerg is doing. If the zerg is playing really passive then you could be trying to take it as soon as you safely establish 3 bases, otherwise it should be taken as your pushing out being close to your first max (first max refers to your first 200/200 army which probably has mostly gateway and not too many colo/vr/other high tech units yet).
5) This is a subjective question. In terms of air units it seems like most people prefer mostly voids with some tempests, personally I still love carriers since they fare better against hydras than voids. However, the ultimate skytoss army also needs HT in there - but once you put HT in your army, you also need additional ground troops to protect the HT (i.e. colo/archon/immo). But once you start adding in more ground... then it's no longer a pure skytoss army. So I don't know, the question is not answerable with a straight up response.
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Okay, thanks. What about the ultimate Protoss army, period? Doesn't have to be Skytoss, but I'm on 4+ bases, swimming in money...what do I want to be building towards? Is there an actual answer to this one, or is it dependent on what Z is doing? (That's the question I was really asking anyway, the reason I said Skytoss was because I thought ultimate PvZ army = Skytoss as a given.)
Also, given your answer to #3, I assume with Colossus/VR/Stalker I'll be maxxing out more slowly than with a less gas-heavy composition, and that's okay due to it's sheer power?
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On April 17 2013 16:50 Supah wrote:
I feel 1 Gate FEs work on 4 player maps, because on 2 player maps, the Zerg can just stream lings upon scouting it, and you can't take an expo at all because of that, and off of 2 Hatches, it's incredibly difficult to match production considering you won't know he's streaming lings until either that first Zealot gets overrun, or the lings are almost at your base already, coupled with the relatively late wall in at your natural; further, 4 player maps seem to have a lot more early pools, which a Gate expand absolutely crushes.
Questions:
1) PvP, 5/7 Stalker pressure, and then you go Robo because you're unsure if DTs or not. He goes SG instead, and takes a slightly slower expo than you. What's the best way to go about not losing to mass VRs? What timing should you be aiming for?
2) PvZ, Forge opener. Either in base, or not, doesn't matter. Zerg goes early Pool (8/9/10/11), and assume you take minimal to no Probe losses, but Zerg gets early speed. How do you take your expo in a timely manner? One Gate expand means you can get overrun with Lings, three Gates means your expo is already very delayed, and the Zerg is more than likely ahead in econ at this point. I have never tried 2 Gates, is that actually the magic number? How many Sentries to be "safe"? Stalkers? Zealots? How do you counter pressure in a timely manner without the Zerg actually just running into your natural and killing it (since you need to take the time to make a wall in your natural)?
I always follow 5 stalker pressure with a stargate and chrono an oracle in case of dts, and if he's also going stargate you can start to match his void ray count and expand shortly after him. I honestly don't know how you do a timing attack vs someone who gets 1-2 voidrays and expands if you go 3 gate+ robo. I've been in that situation many times and my early pushes always get shut down. MSC plus void rays = really hard to break. Maybe if you opened blink from the start, but then you need to have a forge down in case of dts.
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Did i get completely build order countered int his game ? Need some advice.
http://drop.sc/324757
I decided to 1 gate expand and didn't get many probes at the beginning because i didn't know if he's expanding or not. then lost lots of probes to phoenix harass and decided to try and all in since he's going stargate.
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Is 2 gate robo good again in PvT? I was just watching some old replays from the old recommended standard play PvT thread. 2 gate robo was popular back in 2011 because it got you quick observers and was considered pretty safe vs Terran gas openings. The build became less popular as Terrans started going for greedier 1 rax expos (into 3 CC) or CC first. Here is the old strategy I'm referring to: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=196385
Just like in 2011, Terrans are more likely to open with gas now. So, does that mean the meta-game runs full circle? Should 2 gate robo be revived? On a second note, I noticed that the old style of mass collasi/blink stalker with a few sentries to cut up the bio-ball was surprisingly strong against MMMVG. You just need to get a couple of templar in the late game to storm vikings. I'm only in Diamond, so my understanding of the game probably isn't that great. I would like to know what some of the more skilled/experienced players think.
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On April 17 2013 23:04 Salient wrote:Is 2 gate robo good again in PvT? I was just watching some old replays from the old recommended standard play PvT thread. 2 gate robo was popular back in 2011 because it got you quick observers and was considered pretty safe vs Terran gas openings. The build became less popular as Terrans started going for greedier 1 rax expos (into 3 CC) or CC first. Here is the old strategy I'm referring to: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=196385Just like in 2011, Terrans are more likely to open with gas now. So, does that mean the meta-game runs full circle? Should 2 gate robo be revived? On a second note, I noticed that the old style of mass collasi/blink stalker with a few sentries to cut up the bio-ball was surprisingly strong against MMMVG. You just need to get a couple of templar in the late game to storm vikings. I'm only in Diamond, so my understanding of the game probably isn't that great. I would like to know what some of the more skilled/experienced players think.
No, you should go gate core expand robo gate gate. This will still give you the fast obs needed to scout and defend against widow mines, while getting an early expansion up. Protoss now has an early MSC to rely on for early game defense.
On April 17 2013 21:56 Salivanth wrote:
Okay, thanks. What about the ultimate Protoss army, period? Doesn't have to be Skytoss, but I'm on 4+ bases, swimming in money...what do I want to be building towards? Is there an actual answer to this one, or is it dependent on what Z is doing? (That's the question I was really asking anyway, the reason I said Skytoss was because I thought ultimate PvZ army = Skytoss as a given.)
Also, given your answer to #3, I assume with Colossus/VR/Stalker I'll be maxxing out more slowly than with a less gas-heavy composition, and that's okay due to it's sheer power?
No, I don't think there is a consensus for ultimate protoss army. It's going to be some combination of void/carrier/tempest and colo/archon/immo/HT, depending on the zerg combination and your own personal preference. Basically you just don't want crappy gateway units.
Regarding maxing out an army as P, you're going to end up maxing your army several times - your goal is to slowly replace your weaker gateway units with more expensive units as you get into engagements.
On April 17 2013 22:50 scsequeL wrote:Did i get completely build order countered int his game ? Need some advice. http://drop.sc/324757I decided to 1 gate expand and didn't get many probes at the beginning because i didn't know if he's expanding or not. then lost lots of probes to phoenix harass and decided to try and all in since he's going stargate.
Even though you are doing a 1 gate expand, you still shouldn't be cutting that many probes. You might cut a few probes in order to get 3 gate robo up after you put down your expansion, but other than that you should not blindly cut any probes.
Your main issue is poor scouting - you should not use a ff on your first sentry unless you absolutely have to in order to do a hallu scout at 100 energy. Also, I would recommend going obs first before immortal, you have a photon overcharge to use in case of early pressure to buy you time (you used a time warp - that's a definite no-no). Lastly, you can poke around in front of your base with a stalker to get an idea if he's going to attack or not - if there's no army gathering next to a proxy pylon outside your base, chances are no immediate attack is incoming.
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Here's a PvP build I stole from Creator's stream on 14-4. I'd like to hear your opinions on it:
Normal opening with 3 CB on probes
Scout @ Core
19 Gas
20 Gate(Mine with 2)
21 Stalker, Warpgate (Chrono)
23 Pylon->Probe to gas (He scouts 2 Gates at this point)
26 2x Stalker, Chrono both
32 Nexus, Pylon, cut probes
(He casually does some sick micro to kill a Stalker)
Robo
Resume Probes
1x Sentry, MSC
(Scout no Nexus)
37 Stargate
Warp 2 Stalkers
From there, he makes Phoenixes and gets an Obs just in time to kill incoming DT.
He gets a Robo Bay later on. I'm guessing this is mainly because he knows the opponent is not going into Stargate. I wonder what he would do if the opponent opens Stargate.
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How do i counter mech Terran that uses a lot of Hellbats? Should i produce more AOE but which is more viable?
Templar+archons or make a lot of collosi and stalkers or should i do both?
And what units should i make more of if it's both HT/archons and Collossus?
My last match ended with me losing against a mech army, mostly made out of hellbats, tanks and vikings
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On April 17 2013 10:03 hox wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2013 12:49 Mellon wrote:
There was some discussion earlier about PVZ openers, can we discuss gateway opening, in which situation it's better, on what maps and against what builds?
There's a quite few pro-level Protoss that are dabbling in 1gate FE now, including SaSe, Sage, STATE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=loT_kQJTVyU), soO (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=407020¤tpage=36#704). I think it's becoming more popular, though the jury is still out on whether or not you can always 1g FE or it's something you should mix in with FFE, or perhaps it's map dependent. I personally have been experimenting with 1gate FEs with pretty decent success in mid-masters, though I'm not sure how much of it is just because Zergs aren't used to it. I think the key is to use recall efficiently to keep the Zerg on their toes with zealot/sentry pokes and cause overreactions/underreactions (see the STATE video for an example).
My standard vZ opening is an aggressive 1 gate. I delay warpgate for the 2 zealot, 1 stalker and msc attack. It should hit between 5:05 and 5:20, depending on the map and your execution. Typically the zerg can have 2 queens and 6 lings. If the zerg doesnt have both queens in position you can often do game ending damage (I have killed 2 queens and 10 lings and still got the stalker and msc home safely).
I put my third pylon at my natural and place a nexus as I attack, then wall off with a forge and 2 gates. I always go into robo as a followup and add either robo bay or stargates when I scout their tech.
The zerg cannot deny your expansion with lings as your wall is up by the time he fends off your attack. I suppose he might do a 6 ling runby but then you can kill all his queens and probably go for the drones in his main, so I have never had it happen.
I believe it is similar to what Socke was doing at IEM.
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On April 18 2013 02:28 hzflank wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2013 10:03 hox wrote:On April 16 2013 12:49 Mellon wrote:
There was some discussion earlier about PVZ openers, can we discuss gateway opening, in which situation it's better, on what maps and against what builds?
There's a quite few pro-level Protoss that are dabbling in 1gate FE now, including SaSe, Sage, STATE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=loT_kQJTVyU), soO (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=407020¤tpage=36#704). I think it's becoming more popular, though the jury is still out on whether or not you can always 1g FE or it's something you should mix in with FFE, or perhaps it's map dependent. I personally have been experimenting with 1gate FEs with pretty decent success in mid-masters, though I'm not sure how much of it is just because Zergs aren't used to it. I think the key is to use recall efficiently to keep the Zerg on their toes with zealot/sentry pokes and cause overreactions/underreactions (see the STATE video for an example). My standard vZ opening is an aggressive 1 gate. I delay warpgate for the 2 zealot, 1 stalker and msc attack. It should hit between 5:05 and 5:20, depending on the map and your execution. Typically the zerg can have 2 queens and 6 lings. If the zerg doesnt have both queens in position you can often do game ending damage (I have killed 2 queens and 10 lings and still got the stalker and msc home safely). I put my third pylon at my natural and place a nexus as I attack, then wall off with a forge and 2 gates. I always go into robo as a followup and add either robo bay or stargates when I scout their tech. The zerg cannot deny your expansion with lings as your wall is up by the time he fends off your attack. I suppose he might do a 6 ling runby but then you can kill all his queens and probably go for the drones in his main, so I have never had it happen. I believe it is similar to what Socke was doing at IEM.
I do something similar, but I don't delay WG. Basically my PvZ goes like this:
1 gate expand, secure natural with 2 zealots and msc
Poke around with msc and zealots, see if he takes third
Do 3 gate pressure, scout with halluc and recall
Do 5 gate pressure, scout more and recall
Build to counter his build
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Do 1 gate expands PvZ involve 2 gas, or 1? Constant probe production? Or, when to cut them?
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Anyone else facing a lot of early pool builds from Zerg lately? I've been seeing it on pro streams a lot and faced it a few times yesterday. Most of the time it is early pool (6 or 7), make 6 lings, then just drone like crazy and expand then go 2 base mutas or hydra/ling bust. I actually used to do something very similar to that way back when in WoL when I used to play both Zerg and Protoss. It was very powerful for a while on certain maps. The thing that I have seen a few complaints about is that with these maps with the jumbo wall-offs needed, it is almost unstoppable to not have at least some damage done if you go forge at the natural, though with in-base forge you are perfectly safe usually, but it slows you down a lot. On the old WoL maps you could at least to a complete wall-in if you cut probes then you would be safe and ahead. You can't really do that now on the new maps. In GSL they added raised neutral depots to solve this issue. I wish they would do that for the ladder versions of maps too.
Stuff like this is making me really want to go back to gateway expands. I did those for the last few months of WoL and they were a ton of fun. Plus with the MSC you can pressure way better than in WoL. It will keep Zerg way more honest than FFE.
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Probably a stupid question. Nevertheless, can hallucinated massive units crush forcefields?
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On April 18 2013 03:39 TwilightRain wrote:
Probably a stupid question. Nevertheless, can hallucinated massive units crush forcefields? No they cannot. They could for a while in early WoL if I remember right but as far as I know they can't anymore. It would allow for really weird all-ins in PvP otherwise.
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EPT
