The HotS Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 64

On April 20 2013 14:29 ThaReckoning wrote:


It's just a bio opener into that composition. Terran delaying protoss's third is nothing new, it's normal. You can't move out and take a third before you get 2-3 colossi because of how strong drop play is. I don't think that going with templar is a good idea, the composition is way too tanky for that. Immortals are also a soft option because of the EMP. I don't have any replays offhand, but it's just standard terran bio shenanigans vs a double forge robo opener into that composition. The last time I played against it I didn't even take any probe damage from widow mine + bio drops, and still just got smashed by the macro lead + extremely cost efficient army that terran seems to get by default with that composition.

On April 20 2013 15:47 SteveNick wrote:
I'm having a lot of trouble dealing with hellbat/marauder/medivac as a mid to late game composition. Even supply, even upgrades, no blunders in army control, but it's hard to find a composition that can fight against it. Neither storm or collosi are great at dealing with pure hellbat/marauder since they both have fairly high health. You can't go heavy on zealots because they just get taken out quickly by hellbats. You can't go heavy stalker because they only trade evenly-ish with hellbats and get shredded by marauders. Theoretically air could counter the whole composition, but I don't know if it's even plausible to make that switch. Good sentry control might be good at dealing with the hellbats short range, but I'm kind of at a loss as to how to deal with this, especially if they add in vikings/ghosts.

On April 20 2013 22:02 bertu wrote:


I agree that T delaying your third is standard, but you mentioned him having 2/2 and you with 3/3 before you even stablished a third, that's unusual. I was focusing on that time of the game.

It still looks like it's a matter of having your third and tech transitions at the right time. A Protoss with upgrade lead and two types of splash is the strongest theoretical thing you can have against bio in the mid game, specially if you are not taking harass damage early. If T is always going mass vikings and hellbats to abuse your colossus count at the time you are trying to saturate a third, switching to immortal and templar say after two colossus, with an upgrade lead and low stalker count looks like the best response imaginable (that or microing perfectly to snipe vikings with blink stalkers while forcefielding and time warping and making colossus - than it's a matter of execution, and double forge can only help).

If you mean viking+hellbat+ghost late game composition, than it's only possible after you already have a third (he can't have enough ghosts and vikings that early), and it becomes standard late game PvT management. I agree that hellbats are pretty good at that stage with the standard bio composition, but late game good play has a much bigger role at that stage than opening double forge or not, since you should have all your upgrades and tech ready anyways.

It's really hard to comment without seeing replays. If you could point a pro/streamed game where that happened, it would be great too. Sorry I couldn't help further.

On April 21 2013 03:28 ThaReckoning wrote:


What I mean is that before your third is established fully, he can do a 2-2 attack with +2 hellbats, and your 3-3 either won't be done, or will be just finishing up. The problem is that your zealots are essentially wasted supply, and if you cut colossi for immortals he can just emp you while the hellbats soak a ton of immortal shots and his marauders roll you over.

On April 21 2013 14:57 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
Man, that two base oracle all in just isn't working for me any more in PvT. Too many seem to be able to deflect it pretty easily. Any other all ins that might be more effective? I just don't feel like trying long games against Terran right now, it's too hard. Would rather solidify PvZ and PvP some more before I worry about PvT again.

On April 21 2013 15:03 SkyBlaze wrote:


just want to add in that any good protoss would just lay FFs to delay a push if 3/3 is not done in time to stop any timing
push that would happen b4 3/3 was done. Also we should stop talking about this PvT/TvP in this situation it mostly about who can control their army better than the other player.



I don't know if your asking for help or not but most games in SC2 should be decide by the player who's has better army control and not by who has the better army comp and the best example is PvT atm for me but their are a few things i don't like about atm(example terrans got way too many harassment options for my taste).

but for the Oracle based play versus terran is kinda gimmicky due to place 1 turret basically stops all oracle harassment. either the orcacle needs some kind of shield boast or it's attack spell use less energy. It will be shut down way to easy if scouted . just do the double forge builds their way more solid can you do all-in based of them if needed. Example, 5gate all-in(1base), 2 immortal all-in(2base), 1 col 6 gate all-in, High templar 8gate all-in.
Or just play standard play into 1/1 col or 1/1 stroms

On April 21 2013 16:34 SteveNick wrote:
An all-in I've been trying out in PvT is a fake expand-4gate. Almost all TvP is 1rax expand now so it really takes advantage. The down side is that a reaper can scout it, so if they go reaper first, just take your expand and don't 4gate. Most of the time I can even get the Terran to e-bay block me by really selling that I'm going to 1gate expo, don't build a zealot and he will probably e-bay block you(send your probe down there like you're trying to build a nexus too), then you deny scouting with stalker and just add 3 gates instead of expoing. Works pretty well. Will probably have to transition to macro game if he gets a bunker up on his ramp and turtles, but I can usually contain them while expoing/teching for a while.

On April 21 2013 17:04 Sox03 wrote:

To be honest what i exp is that almost everyone goes for reapers and 1 rax fe is barely used anymore.
It is even possible to stop a 4 gate after a 1 rax fe on the lowground so you contain him on two
bases if you fail (and your 4 gate would even be delayed except you just do the normal build and send a probe to the lowground but you have pretty much chrono then.
Well the other thing you want to contain him okay this will as mentioned happen for him on 2 bases while you dont have an expansion up or any significant tech..
So you can maximally contain him until medivacs are out and by this time you will most likely die.
So the next thing is if he goes reaper first he will see this 90% of the time (and 90% of my opponents go reaper)
and react. Im not sure if its possible to hold this when you expand after reaper but since its a delayed 4 gate im pretty sure he can. The consequences are that you're pretty much behind unless you catch a greedy opponent off guard.
At least those are my 2 cents.
Gl hf

Edit: Forget the thing about reapers i just misread im a little bit sick today sorry

On April 21 2013 18:43 Teoita wrote:
You also need chargelots in position to hold drops. Having HT's faster gives you two benefits vs drops: you require a few less gateway units because his bio won't be healed, and it's basically impossible for the terran to micro on two fronts so you will come out ahead on at least one front.

You need more than 6 stalkers to hold drops now. If you watch pro games, roughly one third of their army is in their main (almost) all the time. Watch Rain vs Jakjji on Cloud Kingdom from MLG to see exactly how to split up an position an army against drop play.

Feedback vs drops is fine, just don't assume you will kill the medivac. The goal there isn't to get a kill, but to keep the bio from getting healed.