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PvZ is so depressing. I feel like Zerg have so many viable aggressive options which they can expand behind while Protoss are now completely forced in to hard turtling until they have some end-game composition. Then you're rewarded by having to traverse a sea of spores/spines/swarm hosts/vipers/infestors/hydras to even get close to one of their bases.
I used to always go with phoenix openings>pre BL timing in Wings, but things like that just don't cut it anymore. Just the slow trudge up to 4 bases trying to swot every Zerg tech switch practically before it happens. Then when whatever the attack is comes you have no forcefield energy left because you burnt it all on hallus just trying to find out what the hell was about to happen.
Is there any aggressive style I can play with that isn't a razor sharp timing? Or even some razor sharp timings which I can still use to punish a greedy Zerg? I see them get fast fourths or macro hatches and just have to shrug and accept it, otherwise I might just find myself in a Muta base trade or see my gateway force get slapped down by Hydras.
To summarise, I feel like every option for aggression that Protoss has must be put in to action before you can even work out what Zerg is doing, and if you guess wrong, you're just dead. So the only way to play is ultra defensive.
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On April 14 2013 10:21 Mellon wrote:
For me, defeating the Mutalisk isn't the problem. If i scout it early and im correct that he goes mutas instead of corruptors, you should be able to defend it and stomp it. If he only makes muta's without corruptor you need loads, and you'll win the air battle with them. The problem is if he gets deflected, and you overmade phoenix and he techswaps. Unless you can do good eco damage and know exactly what he transitioned into i feel behind. I guess it's all about experience. I don't think you should ever have more than maybe 2/3 phoenix of his mutas, maybe even 1/2. Unless you can punish him while he tech for mutas it feels like you will be behind almost no matter what damage he did.
How do you handle zerg transition past mutas?
PvZ is all about anticipating transitions and countering them before he makes the switch. For example, ever since the dawn of time a common protoss strategy has been to open stargate, then start teching to colo to counter the inevitable hydras. Same thing for mutas - as you are stabilizing against mutas and getting a decent phoenix count up, you need to start teching to something else before the zerg even makes the switch. My favorite in this scenario is to work towards chargelot/HT - use gateways as a mineral dump while you're still making phoenix. If he switches to hydra, then you'll be ready to crush it with zealot/storm. If he tries to maintain air superiority with corruptors and/or infestors, then you have HT to help fight it. Or, if he overmakes corruptors, you can just switch to a mass gateway army and just roll over him because all his supply is tied up in now useless corruptors.
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On April 12 2013 14:26 Belha wrote:Any high master or Gm replay out there vs the 2 base swarm host contain? Thx in advance. Oh and winning lol, I have 2, both the P losing u.u Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 14:25 ThePianoDentist wrote:
due to muta regen and speed I have not found a good way to beat mass muta with ground troops (the drg versus that protoss in gsl really long game is a great example of how its just so hard to deal with the mutas without beating him in the air) therefore this is the main reason I like this style. I'm pretty sure that in an even game, and with even skills, there is indeed not posible to deal with the new mutas without phoenixes u.u That's why 90+% of korean PvZ openings are Stargate.
Would like a rep of winning against that Swarm Host all in as well. The only wins I have ever seen are when the Toss successfully uses a Warp Prism to harry the Zerg back at his own base. Every other time, the Toss will eventually get rolled over.
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On April 14 2013 10:39 death_vinegar wrote:
PvZ is so depressing. I feel like Zerg have so many viable aggressive options which they can expand behind while Protoss are now completely forced in to hard turtling until they have some end-game composition. Then you're rewarded by having to traverse a sea of spores/spines/swarm hosts/vipers/infestors/hydras to even get close to one of their bases.
I used to always go with phoenix openings>pre BL timing in Wings, but things like that just don't cut it anymore. Just the slow trudge up to 4 bases trying to swot every Zerg tech switch practically before it happens. Then when whatever the attack is comes you have no forcefield energy left because you burnt it all on hallus just trying to find out what the hell was about to happen.
Is there any aggressive style I can play with that isn't a razor sharp timing? Or even some razor sharp timings which I can still use to punish a greedy Zerg? I see them get fast fourths or macro hatches and just have to shrug and accept it, otherwise I might just find myself in a Muta base trade or see my gateway force get slapped down by Hydras.
To summarise, I feel like every option for aggression that Protoss has must be put in to action before you can even work out what Zerg is doing, and if you guess wrong, you're just dead. So the only way to play is ultra defensive.
My favorite way to punish a greedy zerg or any late game zerg on many bases is with mass zealot warp-ins via proxy pylons and warp prisms. Build up your core gas-heavy deathball back at home defensively, and mineral dump on zealots to harass all his bases. At worst even if you do no damage, it puts pressure off you so you can continue to expand more safely without the zerg pressure. Most likely though, you'll be able to cause havoc by killing drones and even expansions. You can also put pressure on the zerg by moving out with your deathball and MSC and just recall if you get into trouble.
EDIT: Added some replays.
http://drop.sc/323075 - hydra -> muta play, mutas caught me off guard and I took a lot of damage at first, but by sending zealot attacks at multiple places while threatening with my main army + MSC recall I was able to stabilize and come back.
http://drop.sc/323076 and http://drop.sc/323077 - turtly style zerg with mass spine/spore, sh, hydra, infestor, viper. Even then, I am still able to do damage with multi-pronged zealot attacks. The zerg cannot possibly have every single spot on the map super well defended, it's your job to move around and find the vulnerable spots. If the zerg moves SH/defenses to cover that spot up, then don't just slam into a wall, find someplace else to attack.
On April 14 2013 10:53 Supah wrote:
The only wins I have ever seen are when the Toss successfully uses a Warp Prism to harry the Zerg back at his own base. Every other time, the Toss will eventually get rolled over.
But that's the key to stopping it. You have to use a warp prism to force units away from the contain. If they don't retreat with enough units, then you cause damage in their base - if they retreat with too many units, then you can break the contain. I've uploaded 2 example replays earlier in this thread, you might have to dig around to find them.
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I second rsvp's post. Theorycrafting ahead.
Mass Mutas / XXX are an APM intensive unit composition due to the fragile nature of mutas.
Multi-prong Dropping upgraded zealots will further tax the Z player once >3 bases.
Multi prong drops are a core Terran mechanic. I do recommend chrono prism speed if you can. You could literally contain a muta ball into their half of the map with two speedrism while you build your anti-muta death ball of choice.
I remember day9 covering this in one of his WoL dailies.
That being said, using Tail's 7:33m DT expand looks like a good opener as DT > Archon is more gas saving and delays the Zerg by requiring spores in every base.
Edit: Two archons per base can easily stop muta balls under 20. Further delaying the Zerg player and auto-lose the muta ball if he engages with less than optimal muta count due to their AOE shots. Two Archons can 2-shot a muta and every muta/ling/etc under it.
Best part about going speedprism/phoneix is that if the Z player right-clicks on your prism and looks away, a decent sized phoneix ball would tear up their muta ball because their target is on the speedprism, giving you free kills until the Z a-moves.
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I'd like to discuss the pylon/forge in the main build I see some people doing in PvZ, specifically on Akilon Wastes. I'm not quite sure what to make of this build. Presumably it'd make it easy to defend against an early pool, which would otherwise be hard to stop due to the difficulty in walling off the large ramp. But what if the enemy Zerg 14pools. It's going to take quite a while to get your nexus down, get an additional pylon set up in your natural, and -then- put a cannon, during which the Zerg can harass you with zerglings. You really don't want to have to put up a cannon in your main to prevent harassment from such a late pool, either.
So I'm a bit confused on why I see people doing this. I've seen Huk do it. I've seen Artosis do it. Are they just forgetting that it's PvZ and forgetting to FE at the start or is there a reason behind this?
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when doing ffe phoenix opening how many phoenix do i need to wait for to get out n about on the map?
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On April 14 2013 15:50 FireMonkey wrote:
when doing ffe phoenix opening how many phoenix do i need to wait for to get out n about on the map?
if we are talk PvZ going with 4 is the most common
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On April 14 2013 11:10 rsvp wrote:
Thank you for sharing replays, it's much easier to learn watching the games.
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On April 14 2013 10:53 Supah wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 14:26 Belha wrote:Any high master or Gm replay out there vs the 2 base swarm host contain? Thx in advance. Oh and winning lol, I have 2, both the P losing u.u On April 12 2013 14:25 ThePianoDentist wrote:
due to muta regen and speed I have not found a good way to beat mass muta with ground troops (the drg versus that protoss in gsl really long game is a great example of how its just so hard to deal with the mutas without beating him in the air) therefore this is the main reason I like this style. I'm pretty sure that in an even game, and with even skills, there is indeed not posible to deal with the new mutas without phoenixes u.u That's why 90+% of korean PvZ openings are Stargate. Would like a rep of winning against that Swarm Host all in as well. The only wins I have ever seen are when the Toss successfully uses a Warp Prism to harry the Zerg back at his own base. Every other time, the Toss will eventually get rolled over.
I open Stargate, when I see Zerg goes for 2Base SH all-in I just get more Phoenixes. Once you killed all Queens, which is pretty ez, 2 Hatches cannot make a lot of those, you can just pick up and kill all the SHs and Zerg usually leaves at that point.
2Base SH has become a freewin for me, even with Nydus, because Phoenixes will kill all Overlords before the Nydus can be planted down and then scout for ground units/Nydus, giving my main army time to be there before or right when units get unloaded.
The key is to be active on the map, Zerg will have close to 0 support units with an early SH all-in, even Blink Stalkers can deflect it if you are active enough and blink in on moving SHs you will reduce their numbers quickly.
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On April 14 2013 16:02 igay wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2013 15:50 FireMonkey wrote:
when doing ffe phoenix opening how many phoenix do i need to wait for to get out n about on the map? if we are talk PvZ going with 4 is the most common
Actually it's 5. The new Phoenix range means that the extra energy WILL get used and this way, even after losing a Phoenix you will be able to kill Queens in one lift.
The main focus is to not lose a single Phoenix, with more range they will have more chances of doing damage and if you have your initial five Phoenix at minute 13, a sudden Muta transition can be held a lot more easy.
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Hi there! Can someone give me a quick run down of 1 colossus fast templar / 2 colossus + range into templar in PvT(after 1 gate FE)? I keep reading/hearing about these two followups but I have never seen any BOs and guides. I've also used the 1gate FE builds found on liquipedia, but came to realize those are outdated, I read that putting the nexus down on 22 following it up with MCS by slighty delaying the first stalker and warpgate tech, then a robo around 26 - is the correct way to do it in HotS. Compared to the much later nexus around 30 after stalker + warpgate tech and a later robo. So yeah, does someone have like a short step-by-step guide of how the two different variations go for the next few minutes after you add the robo? Things like: when you add gates, do I add double forge with these builds, when do I start the twilight transition, should I typically aim to take a third or be agressive? A general guideline from around 30 supply would be really helpful.
I know for the most part what I need to add, but not when, what should go first etc.. It feels like I'm just throwing down random buildings when I try to do this, and end up with a little bit of everything. The only thing I'm not sure if I should add early or not are the two forges.
I switched to P in HotS so I'm still figuring out some of the basic timings and the 'feel' for when to naturally put down things like extra gates, forges etc. I know that you're not supposed to ask for a BO in this thread, so hopefully I'm not breaking any rules by asking for a little guidance on these two 1gateFE followups. 
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On April 14 2013 18:44 rEalGuapo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2013 16:02 igay wrote:On April 14 2013 15:50 FireMonkey wrote:
when doing ffe phoenix opening how many phoenix do i need to wait for to get out n about on the map? if we are talk PvZ going with 4 is the most common Actually it's 5. The new Phoenix range means that the extra energy WILL get used and this way, even after losing a Phoenix you will be able to kill Queens in one lift. The main focus is to not lose a single Phoenix, with more range they will have more chances of doing damage and if you have your initial five Phoenix at minute 13, a sudden Muta transition can be held a lot more easy.
He wanted to know when to move out, and thats normally when your 4th is about to pop since youre then able to kill a queen in one lift (most of the time you go up to 5 though as you said).
But this only really makes sense if youre able to hide them, if he scouts them with his overlord just feel free to already begin killing the overlords around your base, because he should be prepared anyways.
Sometimes players dont even hide there phoenixes anymore, because stargate is so popular that many zerg already get defenses up no matter what. But normally you can try to hide your initial 4 phoenixes and then move out, if he's bad or reacts too late just kill as many queens as you can and scout around try to exploit him a little bit but be sure not to lose any 
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On April 14 2013 19:22 blae000 wrote:
Hi there! Can someone give me a quick run down of 1 colossus fast templar / 2 colossus + range into templar in PvT(after 1 gate FE)? I keep reading/hearing about these two followups but I have never seen any BOs and guides. I've also used the 1gate FE builds found on liquipedia, but came to realize those are outdated, I read that putting the nexus down on 22 following it up with MCS by slighty delaying the first stalker and warpgate tech, then a robo around 26 - is the correct way to do it in HotS.
Check out these VODs http://tv.majorleaguegaming.com/videos/99994-rain-vs-jjakji-game-1-round-of-16-mlg-dallas-2013
Rain shows "textbook PvT", really nice and educative games be sure to watch all of them and keep track of his build order.
In terms of 1 gate fe Rain has some pretty good ones, but there are just many different ways how to do it, if you dont like Rain's version just watch PROtoss streams (dat pun) like sases or creators stream.
I hope this helped rain shows this really solid PvT play as mentioned by the commentators.
Gl hF!
PS: Sorry double post hope it's okay ^^
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On April 14 2013 19:27 Sox03 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2013 18:44 rEalGuapo wrote:On April 14 2013 16:02 igay wrote:On April 14 2013 15:50 FireMonkey wrote:
when doing ffe phoenix opening how many phoenix do i need to wait for to get out n about on the map? if we are talk PvZ going with 4 is the most common Actually it's 5. The new Phoenix range means that the extra energy WILL get used and this way, even after losing a Phoenix you will be able to kill Queens in one lift. The main focus is to not lose a single Phoenix, with more range they will have more chances of doing damage and if you have your initial five Phoenix at minute 13, a sudden Muta transition can be held a lot more easy. He wanted to know when to move out, and thats normally when your 4th is about to pop since youre then able to kill a queen in one lift (most of the time you go up to 5 though as you said). But this only really makes sense if youre able to hide them, if he scouts them with his overlord just feel free to already begin killing the overlords around your base, because he should be prepared anyways. Sometimes players dont even hide there phoenixes anymore, because stargate is so popular that many zerg already get defenses up no matter what. But normally you can try to hide your initial 4 phoenixes and then move out, if he's bad or reacts too late just kill as many queens as you can and scout around try to exploit him a little bit but be sure not to lose any
Oh, as to when to move out. I usually go as soon as I have two Phoenix, Zergs make those Spores anyway and this way you can get a lot more Overlord kills with split up Phoneix all over the map. Spores aren't as good anymore, pulling Queens away will work almost every game, Drone kills are NP. I think saving up Phoenix has no advantage.
There are very few Pros that save up too.
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Guys have you encountered a push from TERRAN that involves marines, hellbats, medivacs, with raven... some sort of 1/1/1 variation, if so how do you defeat it or spot it... VODS and Replays if you have thanks guys
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Not sure if this has been asked before. What do you do if, in a PvP, both of you open up with a Dark Templar rush? My favourite PvP build is the 3 stalker rush into Dark Templar harass into Zealot-Archon bust. However I get really frustrated when I find out my opponent ALSO opened up dark templars- and we both go into this stupid pylon hiding base race game.
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Hi everyone,
I stopped playing for a long time and I ve been trying to get back into it. I d like to experiment with the new changes to toss in HOTS mainly stargate play. I was wondering if anyone would give me a basic opener I can use to go solidly into stargate in the main matchups and possibly a quick few sentences. Id like to end up with going into mass anything stargate so what units are viable based on the matchup would be great too. Thanks and if this has been answered somewhere already I apologize.
User was warned for this post
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On April 15 2013 01:51 xAdra wrote:
Not sure if this has been asked before. What do you do if, in a PvP, both of you open up with a Dark Templar rush? My favourite PvP build is the 3 stalker rush into Dark Templar harass into Zealot-Archon bust. However I get really frustrated when I find out my opponent ALSO opened up dark templars- and we both go into this stupid pylon hiding base race game.
With the Stalker advantage early on you should be able to deny any proxy Pylons and see the DTs as he warps them INTO his base, then you get a Robo and a Sentry back at home to collect your win.
If your opponent went for 2Gate into DT aswell, getting a Robo blindly is probably the only way, just try to get it some time before your Dark Shrine finishes.
That is why I don't like DT play, it is incredibly hard to find out whether someone goes Stargate or DTs and DT Mirror is annoying but getting DTs and a Robo against someone with Stargate and early Oracle seems pretty bad.
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Italy12246 Posts
You can choose to play DT "safe" or "unsafe". What i mean by that is, you can either get detection or not (more or less).
If you are going to 4gate DT zealot/archon allin you have to accept that you might run into wierd DT mirrors.
If you DT expand on the other hand you have time to get your own robo up and tech to obs, or you can also choose to skip if (for example to make a midgame zealot/archon timing more powerful, or if you scout no DT from your opponent)
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EPT
