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On April 13 2013 01:32 Teoita wrote:
I wouldn't call it imbalanced - Zerg in WoL was chained to infestor and we know how that one turned out - but yeah, it's very frustrating. I guess you can scout the spire with a hallu, but i don't know wether it's even possible to tell the difference between a spire for Corruptors and one for Mutas unless you get lucky and see him producing a bunch of lings, or maybe notice he's skipping hydra range or speed.
Even not seeing a Hive is not enough because he might just be delaying Vipers for a Corruptor timing.
This has become my biggest problem PvZ as well.
I find that mutalisks, even when you spot the spire and make double stargate phoenix, are still pretty decent. If you mess up for one second when the mutalisks whip back, you'll lose a lot, if not all of your phoenix - it's very unforgiving. I really, really dislike games versus mutalisk, I find that they are actually more difficult to combat than in WOL - and that's saying something.
Secondly, I have a hard time even telling if they are going mutalisk. I saw my opponent with a hydralisk den, roach warren, two evo chambers and a spire. I was pretty sure it was hydra/roach, but then I noticed that my opponent had a lot of larvae saved up, so I went double SG phoenix - he made corruptor/hydra/roach. Another game I scout two evo chambers, a roach warren, no spire with a phoenix. My phoenix hallucination dies and he starts the spire immediately behind his mineral line in his natural with two queens and an overseer nearby - making it almost impossible to scout. I could have scouted with another hallucinated phoenix, but even then it's not guaranteed I'll see it and sometimes the zerg will proxy it with an overlord.
All this being said, if a Zerg is going roach/hydra - does anyone know when they'll get glial reconstitution? When I scouted my opponent at 9:00 with a hallucinated phoenix I saw the roach warren wasn't upgrading - so that could have been a hint it was mutalisks, but how big of a hint is this? Do Zerg players get this upgrade quickly if they'll be making roaches?
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PvP
Any suggestions to counter quick oracle that transitions to void ray immortal and archon? Mainly how to deal with the vr/immortal/archon composition
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I'm really starting to 1 gate expand in PvZ all the time just to mess with their habitual droning they've implemented in their brains.
I think it's causing them to mess up and delay them quite a bit, just don't reach. Keep telling yourself that if you try this, which I think you should. You're just trying to be annoying, never trying to actually kill him. If he dies, he dies.
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On April 13 2013 05:10 daredpanda wrote:
PvP
Any suggestions to counter quick oracle that transitions to void ray immortal and archon? Mainly how to deal with the vr/immortal/archon composition
Keep 2 stalkers early game in your mineral line, 1 doesn't deflect an oracle. Even with two he might get a little damage done, so if you aren't pushing out just keep more than that. With that transition, i'd say gateway army. Chargelot/archon/stalker/ht. Since immortal aren't good unless hitting your stalkers which you can obviously deny with blink. You are also way more mobile, so try to harass alot. If he lacks cannons, or got few observers just try to dt drop, or zealot harass. You need to mineral dump either way, so just go crazy on your harass since that's the advantage of going that style. Until people learn to spread their Void rays in pvp it's gonna be so susceptible to storm.
I'm really starting to 1 gate expand in PvZ all the time just to mess with their habitual droning they've implemented in their brains.
I think it's causing them to mess up and delay them quite a bit, just don't reach. Keep telling yourself that if you try this, which I think you should. You're just trying to be annoying, never trying to actually kill him. If he dies, he dies.
But you have to do damage, or prevent his droning since you delay your eco, right? Can you still take as early of a third or maybe even earlier? Haven't tried it alot yet..
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I really hope that someone can help me with this problem. I have been having problems with this for a while:
In PvZ, i started going nexus first when i scout a 14 pool or later. On some maps this is not a problem but on maps where i need my cyber to complete the wall it really is a problem (akilon wastes for example). The problem is that on this map the zerg sometimes still manages to get those early 4 lings into my base. The cyber will be built around 19 supply but it is JUST to late. The lings will be able to come in.
What am i forgetting here? Is it just to risky to go nexus first vs 14 pool or should i time something a little different?
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Italy12246 Posts
If he tries to commit with the lings you can throw down an emergency gateway and fully wall off while your cannon completes. Once the cannon is up, cancel and make a cyber core.
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Hi guys, my first post on this forum. I'm a protoss gold league so, by definition, i'm bad.
My question: i'm a bit confused about how i supposed to micro the voidrays when there are, say, 5 voidrays plus 10 stalkers vs 5 voidrays plus 10 stalkers. I should be focusing all my voidray fire on one voidray at a time? I should be focusing fire on the stalkers? Or i should just a-move?
I'm asking this because recently i have been losing several engagements like thoses, despite having the same army and upgrades that my opponent...
I really don't know. Thanks in advance for the answers, they will be very useful and i will really appreciate any help.
(and sorry for my bad english, it not is my native language).
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Italy12246 Posts
I think you are better off focusing void rays first because they are the biggest threat to your armored units (stalkers and voids). Keep in mind that positioning before a fight and proximity to a pylon for reinforcements can influence the outcome of the fight as much as micro.
That said, micro is fairly irrelevant in gold, so if you want more specific advice feel free to post a replay, just upload it on drop.sc and post a link.
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On April 13 2013 04:26 Salv wrote:
This has become my biggest problem PvZ as well.
I find that mutalisks, even when you spot the spire and make double stargate phoenix, are still pretty decent. If you mess up for one second when the mutalisks whip back, you'll lose a lot, if not all of your phoenix - it's very unforgiving. I really, really dislike games versus mutalisk, I find that they are actually more difficult to combat than in WOL - and that's saying something.
Secondly, I have a hard time even telling if they are going mutalisk. I saw my opponent with a hydralisk den, roach warren, two evo chambers and a spire. I was pretty sure it was hydra/roach, but then I noticed that my opponent had a lot of larvae saved up, so I went double SG phoenix - he made corruptor/hydra/roach. Another game I scout two evo chambers, a roach warren, no spire with a phoenix. My phoenix hallucination dies and he starts the spire immediately behind his mineral line in his natural with two queens and an overseer nearby - making it almost impossible to scout. I could have scouted with another hallucinated phoenix, but even then it's not guaranteed I'll see it and sometimes the zerg will proxy it with an overlord.
All this being said, if a Zerg is going roach/hydra - does anyone know when they'll get glial reconstitution? When I scouted my opponent at 9:00 with a hallucinated phoenix I saw the roach warren wasn't upgrading - so that could have been a hint it was mutalisks, but how big of a hint is this? Do Zerg players get this upgrade quickly if they'll be making roaches?
To be honest, I'm not a big fan of fighting against Mutalisks either, both in WoL and HotS, as Blink and Storm just don't cut it against the faster (both in speed and regen) Mutalisks like they did in WoL. Double Stargate, at least with Mutalisks and Phoenixes in their current state, is still the best response to it. You still need an initial warp-in of Stalkers to fend off the first wave of Mutalisks while you're getting your production going for it, then all your Chronos/Gas go into Stargate/Phoenix production. Here's a few tips though on how I deal with it:
1) My first leeway in gas I immediately start Level 1 Air Weapons, followed by Fleet Beacon for Range upgrade and Level 2 Air Weapons. This is purely personal choice, but you can choose instead to get the Fleet Beacon first and then start the upgrades, but I kind of like how I can start both Level 2 and Range around the same time. The Range upgrade is the most obvious, as that provides more leeway for you to micro and chase Mutalisks if they retreat. The Weapon upgrade is a little more subtle, as Zergs tend to either go in one of two routes: 1) Add in Corruptors to counter the Phoenixes or 2) transition to Hydras. The Air Weapons is important because if you stay ahead in weapon upgrades, Phoenixes will actually beat Corruptors (I believe Lvl 2 Weapon Phoenix can kill a Corruptor 1 on 1), which usually works out because most often Zerg players tend to initially neglect getting armor for air units. Any extra minerals I'll put either add more zealots or cannons at my third.
2) If the game still goes on past that point, I'll get the Robotics Bay for the eventual transition into Hydras. Here I'll be offensive with the Phoenixes and pick off any stray Hydras meeting with the main army (most likely you'll beat their air army unless you had a really bad trade for Phoenixes or you lost your third to a mass ling runby, which is why you want a bunch of Zealots and Cannons in your third). Most likely it's always either Hydralisks, Ultralisks, or a mix of both (both of which do well against Phoenixes) so it's important to pre-emptively transition to Robo units once he's done making air. Having an Observer at any one of their Hatcheries will give you valuable information on what he's reinforcing with (if you don't have the time to get Observers, then if you still have your initial Sentries, then use Hallucinations and camp them near a Hatchery).
3) Proxy isn't very common (or to say I haven't faced a Zerg player that's done that), but I feel it's so easy to abuse someone that does that. Kill the overlord feeding the creep, throw a few zealots so he can't runby with Lings or harass with Mutas, etc. Even if you can't find the Spire, the best indicators of Mutas are no upgrades on the Hydralisk Den, which is what they'll usually get along with the Spire. I find that checking the Hydralisk Den for upgrades is the best indicator of what they plan to attack with.
I usually don't check the Roach Warren, since most Zergs get a Roach Warren regardless of whether they actually plan to get Roaches or not since it's more of a defensive structure than a tech choice. If they actually plan on going Hydra/Roach, then it's "very" likely that they'll get speed for both units so they can be mobile with the army. You can check Evo Chambers too if you want (having two isn't indicative of Hydra/Roach either, as standard Zergs will be swimming in minerals anyway so it's not inconvenience to get 2 Evo Chambers and end up not going Roach/Hydra).
Hope this all helps! I've been feeling a little more confident with PvZ because it's easy to prepare your counter once you know what's coming.
On April 13 2013 05:10 daredpanda wrote:
PvP
Any suggestions to counter quick oracle that transitions to void ray immortal and archon? Mainly how to deal with the vr/immortal/archon composition
For the quick Oracle, it really depends on your Tech choice:
a) Robo - Unfortunately this is where you're at a bit of a disadvantage. Nothing out of the Robo will help you, so your only choice is putting additional Stalkers in your mineral lines.
b) Stargate - Get a Phoenix.
c) Twilight - I have very little experience with people who open Blink in PvP as I personally feel that it's pretty bad. For DTs, however, I'll threaten mineral lines with it, which forces their Oracle back home.
I think for both those unit compositions, I'm a fan of High Templars or Archons. If he's putting his gas into more Void Rays, then Storm will definitely help. If he's getting more Archons, I'd mix in a few Archons myself while also teching to Colossi.
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Lately in going 1 gate expand into stargate in PvZ, my win rate improved just a bit, i chrono out 3 oracles focus down their queen and i get a few good drone kills, i follow it up with immortal sentry to pressure or at least take out the third while i expand. im not doing it clean though. but so far its getting me wins, PvZ is my worst match up.
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On April 13 2013 10:49 3LILpigs wrote:
Lately in going 1 gate expand into stargate in PvZ, my win rate improved just a bit, i chrono out 3 oracles focus down their queen and i get a few good drone kills, i follow it up with immortal sentry to pressure or at least take out the third while i expand. im not doing it clean though. but so far its getting me wins, PvZ is my worst match up.
Are you asking for a build? It seems like you're just what you've been doing and it's been working, which is a good thing right? lol
Anyway, to compare, I always get Twilight and Robo at the same time before taking my third. As I'm taking my third, I check their tech path with Hallucinations. If it's Hydras, then I get a Robo Bay as I'm getting Blink and +2. If it's Mutalisks, I put down two Stargates. I'm of the opinion that Robo is much better if you plan to play reactively and Stargate works if you want to be aggressive with air units; it's just personal choice.
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Show nested quote +On April 13 2013 07:25 Nipje wrote:
I really hope that someone can help me with this problem. I have been having problems with this for a while:
In PvZ, i started going nexus first when i scout a 14 pool or later. On some maps this is not a problem but on maps where i need my cyber to complete the wall it really is a problem (akilon wastes for example). The problem is that on this map the zerg sometimes still manages to get those early 4 lings into my base. The cyber will be built around 19 supply but it is JUST to late. The lings will be able to come in.
What am i forgetting here? Is it just to risky to go nexus first vs 14 pool or should i time something a little different? On April 13 2013 07:27 Teoita wrote:If he tries to commit with the lings you can throw down an emergency gateway and fully wall off while your cannon completes. Once the cannon is up, cancel and make a cyber core.
Is this really the way? The only way? I tought i had some timings messed up..
So this nexus first really is viable vs 14+ pool?
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Italy12246 Posts
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On April 13 2013 07:58 Teoita wrote:
I think you are better off focusing void rays first because they are the biggest threat to your armored units (stalkers and voids). Keep in mind that positioning before a fight and proximity to a pylon for reinforcements can influence the outcome of the fight as much as micro.
That said, micro is fairly irrelevant in gold, so if you want more specific advice feel free to post a replay, just upload it on drop.sc and post a link.
Thanks!
As soon as I get some replays, I will post them here (i deleted the old ones). My biggest problem right now is the lack of game sense to take a third base. Usually I take it too early or too late.
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I heard in the last State of the Game from Artosis that PvP has begun to stabilize, and we're seeing safe expand builds. However, in my experience, I'm mainly seeing 1 base all ins. He specifically mentioned an expand, then robo build; can anybody give me a safe PvP expand?
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PvZ - Mutalisks
OK, so just recently I posted about having trouble identifying mutalisks in PvZ, but after talking with a friend of mine, EGSuppy, he helped me by telling me a few things I can look for when scouting. I want to share that knowledge with you all, but then I have a mutalisk gripe that I need help with. So, a few things I learned:- 6 gases doesn't necessarily mean mutalisk, but it's one sign that should make you think it's a possibility.
- Usually, a Zerg making mass mutalisk will only get one evolution chamber because it's expensive (gas wise) past the first stage to dual upgrade ground units.
- Spire goes down between 9 minutes - 9 minutes 30 seconds usually - so use that time to make sure you're scouting for a possible spire.
- If you see six gas and no other tech like infestation pit or hydralisk den - assume it's mutalisk because they may have proxied it.
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That being said, I still cannot beat mutalisk if the Zerg is competent. I can now almost always identify when mutalisk are coming before they get to my base, so I make my double stargate, then I make a fleet beacon - however I still cannot combat the mutalisks.
One problem is that mutalisk tend to clump up a lot easier than phoenix do, so even if you both have large air armies, his mutalisks tend to stack which means usually all of his units fire on yours and only some of your phoenix return fire.
The second problem I have is chasing mutalisk. If you're pumping phoenix, ideally when fleet beacon upgrade is done you want to go on the map and try to find the mutalisk to combat them - as long as there are no infestors - that's fine, but I find that if the mutalisks run away and then flick back in your direction, unless you have perfect reaction time, you're going to lose some phoenix and because of the problem where his mutalisk clump and your phoenix don't - you often lose the dps battle.
So, I tried to think of some ways to combat these problems. One way would just be to perfect my reaction time, which sounds fine, but maybe I am alone here, but when I am using my phoenix fleet to fight mutalisks, it doesn't seem ideal, it doesn't seem like it's even working that well, it just seems adequate - throw in Zerg who make corruptors as well and it becomes very difficult.
Another possible solution is to only use the phoenix to defend and not chase around the mutalisk, however this would only be a means to and end and I'm not sure what that end could be. Psi storm is still good versus mutalisk, so possibly only using enough phoenix to deflect harass and then just work on a deathball army? That seems not very good either though, not ideal.
The last solution, and I need to do some unit tester testing to figure this out for sure is going for triple stargate. If you have three bases (which you should) you can definitely support making three phoenix's at a time and then you can be a bit less perfect with the micro. The problem with two stargate phoenix is that you still have few phoenix relative to his muta ball, so when they flick back and you lose two or three phoenix, that's like 10-15% of your air army, but when you kill 1-2 mutalisks, that's typically only 5% of his army. However if you have a giant phoenix fleet, maybe that isn't as much of a problem? Perfect micro wouldn't be necessarily, only the fact that you're combating him and getting the better of the exchanges?
-----Unit Tester Info
In the unit tester, even with corruptors and assuming both maxed upgrades, a straight up battle with no micro goes remarkably well for the protoss fleet. So factoring in that the Protoss should be able to get upgrades quicker, and factoring in micro, it seems like just 'outmassing' the Zerg is maybe the best option.
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Re: Salv
Good advice. I don't use triple stargate personally, but I think it's probably fine as long as you intend to stay defensive for a long time and transition into void rays immediately after. My addendum:
- Make sure both stargates are rallied to several phoenix in your main group. Right click on one of the phoenix, and then shift right click a few of the others. You might have to do this several times if you're trying to do this while they're engaged with the mutas to make sure you don't right click on the map somewhere by mistake.
- Have your main screen hovering over the phoenix for as much time as possible to avoid losing to the flick back. If you need to turn your attention to something else, disengage from the mutas first and build your tech or whatever then go back to the phoenix and reengage.
- Don't move out with the phoenix unless you know the position of the mutalisks. To this end, you should be constantly moving your phoenix around to try and keep an eye on where they are currently.
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On April 14 2013 06:46 Drizzle. wrote:
I heard in the last State of the Game from Artosis that PvP has begun to stabilize, and we're seeing safe expand builds. However, in my experience, I'm mainly seeing 1 base all ins. He specifically mentioned an expand, then robo build; can anybody give me a safe PvP expand?
Haven't seen the latest SoTG, but from my experience there still really isn't a safe fast expand build. The most common I've seen (most likely the robo one you're talking about) is 1 gate expand into robo + 2 additional gateways. You make mostly sentries off the 1st gateway, and get an early MSC so that you can photon overcharge your expansion as soon as it finishes. This buys you time to get an immortal out and 3 gate units to hold off additional gateway pressure. The problem is that this dies to 3 gate stargate builds, since you are forced into making sentries but phoenix or oracle counter sentries. If you want a specific BO then you can check out some of my PvP replays from the OP or earlier in this thread, I think I do this 1 gate expand robo a few times at least.
On April 14 2013 08:03 Salv wrote:
PvZ - Mutalisks
You will need good micro and good reaction time to play phoenix vs mutas. There's no other way around it - it's a micro intensive situation for both sides. There's no other way around it, practicing improving your reaction time is a must.
That being said, I suggest heavily erring on the side of caution when your phoenix count is still low. Don't go aggressively chasing after mutas especially before you get the range upgrade. Then when you get your range upgrade and a decent phoenix count, chasing after mutas is very important. By that time if you're only fighting when he's attacking your base, you're going to lose probes or something else even if you manage to defend/chase away the mutas in the end. Especially when corruptors are out, the best way to lower the muta count is to be on the aggressive side and pick mutas off when he's not paying attention, and/or picking off freshly hatched rallied mutas.
If you're on 3 base going 3 stargate instead of just 2 is a great idea. I always favor extra production buildings, even if they are expensive ones like stargates/robos and not just gateways. Regarding straight up battles though, if micro is even on both sides then corruptor/muta is going to beat pure phoenix in a straight up battle. You have to either bring in stalkers/archons/storm into the battle, or use your mobility advantage with phoenix to win the micro war (avoiding the corruptors and killing the mutas).
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On April 14 2013 08:20 rsvp wrote:
You will need good micro and good reaction time to play phoenix vs mutas. There's no other way around it - it's a micro intensive situation for both sides. There's no other way around it, practicing improving your reaction time is a must.
That being said, I suggest heavily erring on the side of caution when your phoenix count is still low. Don't go aggressively chasing after mutas especially before you get the range upgrade. Then when you get your range upgrade and a decent phoenix count, chasing after mutas is very important. By that time if you're only fighting when he's attacking your base, you're going to lose probes or something else even if you manage to defend/chase away the mutas in the end. Especially when corruptors are out, the best way to lower the muta count is to be on the aggressive side and pick mutas off when he's not paying attention, and/or picking off freshly hatched rallied mutas.
If you're on 3 base going 3 stargate instead of just 2 is a great idea. I always favor extra production buildings, even if they are expensive ones like stargates/robos and not just gateways. Regarding straight up battles though, if micro is even on both sides then corruptor/muta is going to beat pure phoenix in a straight up battle. You have to either bring in stalkers/archons/storm into the battle, or use your mobility advantage with phoenix to win the micro war (avoiding the corruptors and killing the mutas).
Having spoken to a couple 1200+ master Z teammates, which of course means they are no authority, but they have said that triple stargate rolls mutalisk. If you get the air weapon upgrades and chronoboost them, after you get the range upgrade, with a little micro you will stomp all the mutalisk and corruptors they have. I think you're correct I need to improve my reaction time, that's a given, but there's a feeling you have when you get outplayed and you know you just need to improve. The feeling I get double phoenix versus mutalisk is less of a 'I am not doing this as well as I need to' and more of a 'this simply is ineffective' feeling.
Yesterday on Desrow's stream he mentioned double stargate not being too effective as well, not that Desrow is the be-all end-all of strategy, but that should lend some credence to the idea of triple stargate.
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For me, defeating the Mutalisk isn't the problem. If i scout it early and im correct that he goes mutas instead of corruptors, you should be able to defend it and stomp it. If he only makes muta's without corruptor you need loads, and you'll win the air battle with them. The problem is if he gets deflected, and you overmade phoenix and he techswaps. Unless you can do good eco damage and know exactly what he transitioned into i feel behind. I guess it's all about experience. I don't think you should ever have more than maybe 2/3 phoenix of his mutas, maybe even 1/2. Unless you can punish him while he tech for mutas it feels like you will be behind almost no matter what damage he did.
How do you handle zerg transition past mutas?
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