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On April 12 2013 04:31 ThaReckoning wrote:
Anyone figured out how to beat 2 base swarmhost nydus all in yet? I loosely call it an all in, because it's really not as the zerg takes the map while you struggle to get out 8 colossi to get out of your base. Double robo colossi just doesn't cut it. That build is a nightmare to face. They throw down spores, keep pumping out queens and swarmhosts and then you die because you starve to death and can't actually attack them or move out because of the contain. I have faced it 3 times, and have never come even remotely close to holding it. I scouted it two of the times too and still lost.
And yet so many Zergs continue to complain that swarmhosts are weak and useless.
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On April 12 2013 06:03 Gessen wrote:Hey guys, Diamond toss here, having trouble with 6 pool into 2 base ling/muta into 3base ling/bane muta/corrupter. I have no problem surviving the six pool and then getting up my nat. I'm just wondering if anyone has run into this build and what they've had success doing. I was going for DTs, but they were scouted. Because of his high ling count I assumed muta and started phoenix production. Had a few bad engagements and just got starved out. Maybe I need storm, maybe I need better engagements. Maybe I need better transitions out of defending the six pool. Would love some advice/suggestions. Here is a replay: http://drop.sc/321835
A lot of problems from this game originated in the first 12 mins. That was the time when your 2nd came in, and normally the time a late third would come in. You get dark templar early on, but he gets spores down and you do not use the dark templar for map control or shutting down a potential third+. You have the right composition to counter his unit choice of muta / ling, but you did not have the upgrades to bring your units to their full potential (Archons with only +1 weapon upgrade, and zealots against 2 armor lings). Then you finally trade armies, but you do not reinforce. From that point, you effectively lost. The final engagement was an attempt to keep the zerg crippled but you were too crippled yourself.
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On April 12 2013 08:37 Ben... wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 04:31 ThaReckoning wrote:
Anyone figured out how to beat 2 base swarmhost nydus all in yet? I loosely call it an all in, because it's really not as the zerg takes the map while you struggle to get out 8 colossi to get out of your base. Double robo colossi just doesn't cut it. That build is a nightmare to face. They throw down spores, keep pumping out queens and swarmhosts and then you die because you starve to death and can't actually attack them or move out because of the contain. I have faced it 3 times, and have never come even remotely close to holding it. I scouted it two of the times too and still lost. And yet so many Zergs continue to complain that swarmhosts are weak and useless.
Double robo colossus does fine if you want to status quo and not die, but by the time you break out of it, zerg is maxed with his high tech of choice and has the whole map. Doesn't matter if/when the swarmhost contain happens, if it happens you pretty much have lost the game. I've faced it after zergs fail 6 pools, after they just blindly do it on 2 base, etc. Nothing I've tried works. Double sg, triple sg, moving out on the map to stop them from burrowing, 7 gate with blink, 7 gate robo, I've done it all. Honestly I have no idea what else to do, there's literally nothing.
I can say with 100% certainty though, that double robo colossi doesn't work in the slightest, even with wp zealot harass. All it takes is one burrowed SH per base and zealot harass is completely nullified. Today's just been a bad day for me on ladder, this kind of crap and 1-1-1 from terran players is all I've faced. Looks like they're finally figuring out how to use their new units abusively.
Edit: I have no problem identifying the build, I see it eons before it hits every time. I've faced it from the same zerg multiple times in a row and specifically tried to metagame it with a gateway opener and 3 gate pressure, but to no avail. I just can't think of a good way to deal with it tbh.
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On April 12 2013 08:37 Ben... wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 04:31 ThaReckoning wrote:
Anyone figured out how to beat 2 base swarmhost nydus all in yet? I loosely call it an all in, because it's really not as the zerg takes the map while you struggle to get out 8 colossi to get out of your base. Double robo colossi just doesn't cut it. That build is a nightmare to face. They throw down spores, keep pumping out queens and swarmhosts and then you die because you starve to death and can't actually attack them or move out because of the contain. I have faced it 3 times, and have never come even remotely close to holding it. I scouted it two of the times too and still lost. And yet so many Zergs continue to complain that swarmhosts are weak and useless.
http://drop.sc/321895
This is a 3 base, so very different but the concept carries over. You threaten a base trade scenario. Get 3 colossus with thermal lance upgrades at home. and Rely on blink stalkers and maybe dts to abuse mobility.
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On April 12 2013 08:52 DanceSC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 08:37 Ben... wrote:On April 12 2013 04:31 ThaReckoning wrote:
Anyone figured out how to beat 2 base swarmhost nydus all in yet? I loosely call it an all in, because it's really not as the zerg takes the map while you struggle to get out 8 colossi to get out of your base. Double robo colossi just doesn't cut it. That build is a nightmare to face. They throw down spores, keep pumping out queens and swarmhosts and then you die because you starve to death and can't actually attack them or move out because of the contain. I have faced it 3 times, and have never come even remotely close to holding it. I scouted it two of the times too and still lost. And yet so many Zergs continue to complain that swarmhosts are weak and useless. http://drop.sc/321895This is a 3 base, so very different but the concept carries over. You threaten a base trade scenario. Get 3 colossus with thermal lance upgrades at home. and Rely on blink stalkers and maybe dts to abuse mobility.
That's very different from what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about is zerg having swarmhosts at the natural by 9:45, that zerg went 3 base with late lair, triple evo with upgrades, speed, and a spire before his infestation pit.
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On April 12 2013 09:00 ThaReckoning wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 08:52 DanceSC wrote:On April 12 2013 08:37 Ben... wrote:On April 12 2013 04:31 ThaReckoning wrote:
Anyone figured out how to beat 2 base swarmhost nydus all in yet? I loosely call it an all in, because it's really not as the zerg takes the map while you struggle to get out 8 colossi to get out of your base. Double robo colossi just doesn't cut it. That build is a nightmare to face. They throw down spores, keep pumping out queens and swarmhosts and then you die because you starve to death and can't actually attack them or move out because of the contain. I have faced it 3 times, and have never come even remotely close to holding it. I scouted it two of the times too and still lost. And yet so many Zergs continue to complain that swarmhosts are weak and useless. http://drop.sc/321895This is a 3 base, so very different but the concept carries over. You threaten a base trade scenario. Get 3 colossus with thermal lance upgrades at home. and Rely on blink stalkers and maybe dts to abuse mobility. That's very different from what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about is zerg having swarmhosts at the natural by 9:45, that zerg went 3 base with late lair, triple evo with upgrades, speed, and a spire before his infestation pit.
Same concept, base trade them. If you have to do it sooner then do it sooner. If you cannot make it out of your base, get the 3 colo anyway and use a warp prism. Abuse their lack of mobility
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On April 12 2013 08:40 DanceSC wrote:
A lot of problems from this game originated in the first 12 mins. That was the time when your 2nd came in, and normally the time a late third would come in. You get dark templar early on, but he gets spores down and you do not use the dark templar for map control or shutting down a potential third+. You have the right composition to counter his unit choice of muta / ling, but you did not have the upgrades to bring your units to their full potential (Archons with only +1 weapon upgrade, and zealots against 2 armor lings). Then you finally trade armies, but you do not reinforce. From that point, you effectively lost. The final engagement was an attempt to keep the zerg crippled but you were too crippled yourself.
Alright, good to know they were execution errors and not conceptual/build errors. Thanks for taking a look man. I'll go through the rep again and keep on eye on how I'm spending my money early on and how much he has to see when I should be grabbing a second. Thanks again.
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On April 12 2013 09:13 DanceSC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 09:00 ThaReckoning wrote:On April 12 2013 08:52 DanceSC wrote:On April 12 2013 08:37 Ben... wrote:On April 12 2013 04:31 ThaReckoning wrote:
Anyone figured out how to beat 2 base swarmhost nydus all in yet? I loosely call it an all in, because it's really not as the zerg takes the map while you struggle to get out 8 colossi to get out of your base. Double robo colossi just doesn't cut it. That build is a nightmare to face. They throw down spores, keep pumping out queens and swarmhosts and then you die because you starve to death and can't actually attack them or move out because of the contain. I have faced it 3 times, and have never come even remotely close to holding it. I scouted it two of the times too and still lost. And yet so many Zergs continue to complain that swarmhosts are weak and useless. http://drop.sc/321895This is a 3 base, so very different but the concept carries over. You threaten a base trade scenario. Get 3 colossus with thermal lance upgrades at home. and Rely on blink stalkers and maybe dts to abuse mobility. That's very different from what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about is zerg having swarmhosts at the natural by 9:45, that zerg went 3 base with late lair, triple evo with upgrades, speed, and a spire before his infestation pit. Same concept, base trade them. If you have to do it sooner then do it sooner. If you cannot make it out of your base, get the 3 colo anyway and use a warp prism. Abuse their lack of mobility
Your response is more than a little frustrating, I already covered why this isn't a viable option. It's an insane unit cutting rush just to get double robo out in time to deal with this, and break out minutes after the contain is set up. I've been attacking zerg players before the timing with a variety of builds, they just hold with ling/queens/spines and stabilize when the swarm hosts come out. You can't base race a zerg when you only have two bases, there's no threat there.
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On April 12 2013 09:13 DanceSC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 09:00 ThaReckoning wrote:On April 12 2013 08:52 DanceSC wrote:On April 12 2013 08:37 Ben... wrote:On April 12 2013 04:31 ThaReckoning wrote:
Anyone figured out how to beat 2 base swarmhost nydus all in yet? I loosely call it an all in, because it's really not as the zerg takes the map while you struggle to get out 8 colossi to get out of your base. Double robo colossi just doesn't cut it. That build is a nightmare to face. They throw down spores, keep pumping out queens and swarmhosts and then you die because you starve to death and can't actually attack them or move out because of the contain. I have faced it 3 times, and have never come even remotely close to holding it. I scouted it two of the times too and still lost. And yet so many Zergs continue to complain that swarmhosts are weak and useless. http://drop.sc/321895This is a 3 base, so very different but the concept carries over. You threaten a base trade scenario. Get 3 colossus with thermal lance upgrades at home. and Rely on blink stalkers and maybe dts to abuse mobility. That's very different from what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about is zerg having swarmhosts at the natural by 9:45, that zerg went 3 base with late lair, triple evo with upgrades, speed, and a spire before his infestation pit. Same concept, base trade them. If you have to do it sooner then do it sooner. If you cannot make it out of your base, get the 3 colo anyway and use a warp prism. Abuse their lack of mobility Except they have nydus worm so all they do is move a few of the swarmhosts back through the nydus, defend their main, then continue with attacking your natural. Your response does not work if they play smart at all. The build is a contain, you cannot get an army out of your base, that is what makes it hard. Not to mention how are you going to get 3 colossus out of your base, past their defense around the swarmhosts, and into their base for a basetrade without them seeing you? I really doubt you understand the build we are discussing.
And I watched the replay. That Zerg should not have lost. He was miles ahead after taking down your expansions but he didn't get nearly enough detection after he found out you were going DT. The mass DT play would not have worked if he played at all intelligently and got more than one spore per base. I don't mean to be mean, but he was not very good.
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On April 12 2013 08:37 Ben... wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 04:31 ThaReckoning wrote:
Anyone figured out how to beat 2 base swarmhost nydus all in yet? I loosely call it an all in, because it's really not as the zerg takes the map while you struggle to get out 8 colossi to get out of your base. Double robo colossi just doesn't cut it. That build is a nightmare to face. They throw down spores, keep pumping out queens and swarmhosts and then you die because you starve to death and can't actually attack them or move out because of the contain. I have faced it 3 times, and have never come even remotely close to holding it. I scouted it two of the times too and still lost. And yet so many Zergs continue to complain that swarmhosts are weak and useless.
the natural counter is 2 roboes. it is pretty good against it. really good against it. it is a pretty hard counter
but you need to scout it early, use hallusination for that with your first sentrie when you hit 100 energi should be up by then. also your scouting probe should scout if he throws down a third. If he do not a 2 base swarmhost is most likely incoming or 2 base hydras both is hard counterd by 2 base 2 roboes colloses
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On April 12 2013 09:33 Noxblood wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 08:37 Ben... wrote:On April 12 2013 04:31 ThaReckoning wrote:
Anyone figured out how to beat 2 base swarmhost nydus all in yet? I loosely call it an all in, because it's really not as the zerg takes the map while you struggle to get out 8 colossi to get out of your base. Double robo colossi just doesn't cut it. That build is a nightmare to face. They throw down spores, keep pumping out queens and swarmhosts and then you die because you starve to death and can't actually attack them or move out because of the contain. I have faced it 3 times, and have never come even remotely close to holding it. I scouted it two of the times too and still lost. And yet so many Zergs continue to complain that swarmhosts are weak and useless. the natural counter is 2 roboes. it is pretty good against it. really good against it. it is a pretty hard counter but you need to scout it early, use hallusination for that with your first sentrie when you hit 100 energi should be up by then. also your scouting probe should scout if he throws down a third. If he do not a 2 base swarmhost is most likely incoming or 2 base hydras both is hard counterd by 2 base 2 roboes colloses
As I've already covered, double robo colossi allows you to survive, sure. However, after you break out of this, you have no options. You have 6-8 colossi lying around, and zerg has had plenty of time to transition into mutas or corruptors or ultras with his 5 base economy. There's no way to take and defend a third after spending such a large amount of resources surviving this "all in", yet you also can't attack and kill the zerg because of how one dimensional and easily countered your army is.
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On April 12 2013 09:25 ThaReckoning wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 09:13 DanceSC wrote:On April 12 2013 09:00 ThaReckoning wrote:On April 12 2013 08:52 DanceSC wrote:On April 12 2013 08:37 Ben... wrote:On April 12 2013 04:31 ThaReckoning wrote:
Anyone figured out how to beat 2 base swarmhost nydus all in yet? I loosely call it an all in, because it's really not as the zerg takes the map while you struggle to get out 8 colossi to get out of your base. Double robo colossi just doesn't cut it. That build is a nightmare to face. They throw down spores, keep pumping out queens and swarmhosts and then you die because you starve to death and can't actually attack them or move out because of the contain. I have faced it 3 times, and have never come even remotely close to holding it. I scouted it two of the times too and still lost. And yet so many Zergs continue to complain that swarmhosts are weak and useless. http://drop.sc/321895This is a 3 base, so very different but the concept carries over. You threaten a base trade scenario. Get 3 colossus with thermal lance upgrades at home. and Rely on blink stalkers and maybe dts to abuse mobility. That's very different from what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about is zerg having swarmhosts at the natural by 9:45, that zerg went 3 base with late lair, triple evo with upgrades, speed, and a spire before his infestation pit. Same concept, base trade them. If you have to do it sooner then do it sooner. If you cannot make it out of your base, get the 3 colo anyway and use a warp prism. Abuse their lack of mobility Your response is more than a little frustrating, I already covered why this isn't a viable option. It's an insane unit cutting rush just to get double robo out in time to deal with this, and break out minutes after the contain is set up. I've been attacking zerg players before the timing with a variety of builds, they just hold with ling/queens/spines and stabilize when the swarm hosts come out. You can't base race a zerg when you only have two bases, there's no threat there.
What I find irritating is your ability to read. I start with "This is a 3 base, so very different but the concept carries over" and you respond "That's very different from what I'm talking about.... zerg having swarmhosts at the natural by 9:45" to which I reply and repeat "Same concept". Now you assume you know what I am suggesting only because in your mind you claim you have tried everything. Thus you fantasize about this "rush just to get double robo out in time". where my build simply has 1 robo out, and I rush for blink stalkers. If you cannot scout your opponent rushing swarm hosts or sieging up at time you are well familiar with while still out of position, then you are not grasping the concept.
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On April 12 2013 09:38 DanceSC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 09:25 ThaReckoning wrote:On April 12 2013 09:13 DanceSC wrote:On April 12 2013 09:00 ThaReckoning wrote:On April 12 2013 08:52 DanceSC wrote:On April 12 2013 08:37 Ben... wrote:On April 12 2013 04:31 ThaReckoning wrote:
Anyone figured out how to beat 2 base swarmhost nydus all in yet? I loosely call it an all in, because it's really not as the zerg takes the map while you struggle to get out 8 colossi to get out of your base. Double robo colossi just doesn't cut it. That build is a nightmare to face. They throw down spores, keep pumping out queens and swarmhosts and then you die because you starve to death and can't actually attack them or move out because of the contain. I have faced it 3 times, and have never come even remotely close to holding it. I scouted it two of the times too and still lost. And yet so many Zergs continue to complain that swarmhosts are weak and useless. http://drop.sc/321895This is a 3 base, so very different but the concept carries over. You threaten a base trade scenario. Get 3 colossus with thermal lance upgrades at home. and Rely on blink stalkers and maybe dts to abuse mobility. That's very different from what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about is zerg having swarmhosts at the natural by 9:45, that zerg went 3 base with late lair, triple evo with upgrades, speed, and a spire before his infestation pit. Same concept, base trade them. If you have to do it sooner then do it sooner. If you cannot make it out of your base, get the 3 colo anyway and use a warp prism. Abuse their lack of mobility Your response is more than a little frustrating, I already covered why this isn't a viable option. It's an insane unit cutting rush just to get double robo out in time to deal with this, and break out minutes after the contain is set up. I've been attacking zerg players before the timing with a variety of builds, they just hold with ling/queens/spines and stabilize when the swarm hosts come out. You can't base race a zerg when you only have two bases, there's no threat there. What I find irritating is your ability to read. I start with "This is a 3 base, so very different but the concept carries over" and you respond "That's very different from what I'm talking about.... zerg having swarmhosts at the natural by 9:45" to which I reply and repeat "Same concept". Now you assume you know what I am suggesting only because in your mind you claim you have tried everything. Thus you fantasize about this "rush just to get double robo out in time". where my build simply has 1 robo out, and I rush for blink stalkers. If you cannot scout your opponent rushing swarm hosts or sieging up at time you are well familiar with while still out of position, then you are not grasping the concept.
The concept does not carry over, though. I watched your replay, that sort of harassment can't be afforded reflexively on two bases. When the hallucination arrives at the zerg base at 8 minutes and ascertains that it's swarmhost, you're already ill equipped to produce a large amount of stalkers with blink, upgrades, and DT by 9:45. Keep in mind that you've already prepared for earlier two base all ins when you scouted the zerg's gas at 3 minutes, and identified that he wasn't taking his third. As I said before, I don't have a problem with identifying the build. Please read the previous discussion on the subject before you respond.
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I made a post about the same nydus worm sworm host build on page 49 but got no response. basically, they get mass queens with it too for transfuse and extra creepe spread and as mineral dump they'll build drone to put spores and spines. While they have you contained like this you litterally ccant shit shit, i scouted it a mile away and i thought well if he is rushing for lair like this he'd be weak so i send 6 zealots in to harrass usually those 6 zealots would go to his third, and what do ya know, he is not weak at all. So he masses sworm hosts which gives 2 free units just as powerful as the hydra. then his scouting info/method is seeing your reaction to the swarm hosts, basically if you go collosus he will go 3 base and get air units. This is the replay http://drop.sc/319376 I've searched everywhere and can't find a counter...honestly i cant believe that blizzard would make a unit like this, by the time you kill 1 wave of locusts, another comes straight after so you can never push forward. Swarm hosts need to be more expensive for what they are or locusts need to be weaker. and if on the off chance you do push through his line, you can't do anything because he has mass queens with either spores or overseers killing your obs. Blink stalkers wont work because getting out of base is one thing, but getting out of the base so he doesn't know is another. As I said they spread more creeper there so they can see when you sneak out. it's seriously a pain in the arse
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So I've been opening with 1 Gate FE against Terran; usually I build 2 stalkers, one to pressure/poke with the MSC, and one to defend reapers and kill scouting scvs...I then go into either Stargate or Robotics before or after my nexus, depending on what I feel like.
I see that on the first page the standard openings lists 1 Gate FE into tech > 3 gates as being safe, but I lost to proxy widow mines while doing this.
Has anyone else been having some trouble with the proxy widow mine into expand build? I especially feel that if I opened stargate against it I have to make multiple oracles and then I just get owned in the midgame. I could start just doing 1 gate fe into robo I suppose, though I really did enjoy doing stargate openers...
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On April 12 2013 11:45 JSK wrote:
So I've been opening with 1 Gate FE against Terran; usually I build 2 stalkers, one to pressure/poke with the MSC, and one to defend reapers and kill scouting scvs...I then go into either Stargate or Robotics before or after my nexus, depending on what I feel like.
I see that on the first page the standard openings lists 1 Gate FE into tech > 3 gates as being safe, but I lost to proxy widow mines while doing this.
Has anyone else been having some trouble with the proxy widow mine into expand build? I especially feel that if I opened stargate against it I have to make multiple oracles and then I just get owned in the midgame. I could start just doing 1 gate fe into robo I suppose, though I really did enjoy doing stargate openers...
If you're opening stalker you should be checking proxy widow mine spots. When you find it, camp the factory and get after them when they come out. Alternatively, if you choose to open sentry, just forcefield the ramp until you get detection, widowmines can't kill your natural.
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I DID IT I DID IT YESSS i just beat the 2 base swarm host nydus worm. It was tough but i did it, basically i tried to delay it for as long as possible while i get collosus from double robo, i scouted my base for his first nydus worm and i killed it so that delayed it for a bit, i forcefielded the first few waves so that no damage was done to me I built more cannons to solidify my defense until i got the magic number of collosi that i could finally push through. This guy was bad though because he didnt tech up to air units which is what good swarm host nydus worm players do. replay here http://drop.sc/321982
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I was thinking about doing a 2-base zealot/sentry gateway all-in in PvT, using hallucinate from extra sentries to clear widow mines. Is this possible, or could the terran just re-target the widow mines on the different hallucinations until turrets or bunkers focused them down?
Just curious if this is a realistic possibility.
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On April 12 2013 12:55 JSK wrote:
I was thinking about doing a 2-base zealot/sentry gateway all-in in PvT, using hallucinate from extra sentries to clear widow mines. Is this possible, or could the terran just re-target the widow mines on the different hallucinations until turrets or bunkers focused them down?
Just curious if this is a realistic possibility.
widow mines auto target so the terran cannot choose what unit he wishes the widow mines to shoot, so yeah you can use hallucination to detonate widow mines, i do it before i go for a warp pirsm drop
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On April 12 2013 13:54 FireMonkey wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 12:55 JSK wrote:
I was thinking about doing a 2-base zealot/sentry gateway all-in in PvT, using hallucinate from extra sentries to clear widow mines. Is this possible, or could the terran just re-target the widow mines on the different hallucinations until turrets or bunkers focused them down?
Just curious if this is a realistic possibility. widow mines auto target so the terran cannot choose what unit he wishes the widow mines to shoot, so yeah you can use hallucination to detonate widow mines, i do it before i go for a warp pirsm drop
no he can definitely choose which unit for them to shoot, I'm just wondering if it's realistic that the hallucinated phoenix won't live long enough. it seems like one hallucinated unit will be killed by terran MM before the WM is set off. and if there's multiples he can switch between them and delay the missile until it doesn't fire because phoenixes are dead.
i'm also not sure if widow mines will fire against detected hallucinated units. if they don't, a hallucinated immortal should do the trick until the widow mines are gone.
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EPT
