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Are there any generalizations we can make yet about PvZ? This matchup is giving me no end of grief so far in Hots. I am low masters on NA, was always high diamond in WoL but couldn't quite make that jump until the mass influx of new players gave me a boost.
In WoL I made it my standard heuristic in PvZ I basically need to do 3 things. First stop any early cheese I see coming, second don't get blindsided by mutas or some sort of infestor cheese, and third that I need to kill Zerg before spine/blord/infestor deathball, so I got pretty good at a 3 base stalker/sentry/immortal/DT timing just before broods where I would split their focus up with a warp prism then get good engagments.
But do such solid, standard heuristics exist in Hots as of yet? I basically have no clue what to do anymore (these toss-hating maps with untakable thirds are giving me a hard time). I hate 2 base timings with a passion because its not up to me to win, its up to zerg to lose, and I really dislike stargate just because its hard to macro while you use the units, and the relative badness of the units in direct engagements makes every second and mineral you have critical if zerg holds r. I'm on the verge of just cheesing until someone comes up with a solid style that allows you to outplay zerg without depending on their mistakes. I typically do nexus first forge expands (obviously not if I'm playing in the dark, then I go forge), and follow up with basically my same build as wings, but these maps just don't let you take a 3rd until you are significantly behind in econ and it feels like nothing I do matters (with the obvious exception of akilon wastes).I will consider stargate plays but I just can't see them being the answer.
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hi guys count me in on the clueless in PVZ group. can some one break down a gateway build for me in PvZ. I have been doing FFEs but to no avail. thanks in advance
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Italy12248 Posts
Read my last post, salv's post, and the questions in the OP. Generally, both star/4gate/robo and robo expand are viable.
It's a really changed matchup so it's really really hard to just write a complete overview rather than answering specific questions; the biggest change is that you don't have to kill Z before infr/broodlord since we are now (appearently) stronger in the lategame.
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On April 11 2013 16:31 Teoita wrote:
Read my last post, salv's post, and the questions in the OP. Generally, both star/4gate/robo and robo expand are viable.
It's a really changed matchup so it's really really hard to just write a complete overview rather than answering specific questions; the biggest change is that you don't have to kill Z before infr/broodlord since we are now (appearently) stronger in the lategame.
im guessing i might be doing something wrong... i cant seem to manage my gas and mineral consumption and i always find my self rushing to get 3 colo and have less stalker...
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How are you guys playing against the muta corruptor style. It's a style that has existed since beta but i have faced it very little on the ladder and don't have a good amount of practice against it. It's particularly annoying when they throw down both a spire and an infestation pit, i feel like i have to go colossi to have any chance against swarm hosts, but then they just go muta corruptor and even constant phoenix production doesn't seem to be enough against the style if you don't have blink or a templar archives on the way.
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On April 11 2013 16:55 blooblooblahblah wrote:
How are you guys playing against the muta corruptor style. It's a style that has existed since beta but i have faced it very little on the ladder and don't have a good amount of practice against it. It's particularly annoying when they throw down both a spire and an infestation pit, i feel like i have to go colossi to have any chance against swarm hosts, but then they just go muta corruptor and even constant phoenix production doesn't seem to be enough against the style if you don't have blink or a templar archives on the way.
Are you getting phoenix range? If they commit to the mutas and start adding in corruptors you have to get a fleet beacon and +2 range to phoenix immediately. With that you can out-range corruptors and mutas. If you don't get the +2 you won't be able to do much against the mutalisks with corruptor support. Obviously you're still going to have trouble if you don't have any stalkers or HT/archon supporting, so you need to get those too. The good thing is that once you gain the upperhand with your phoenixes, the game is over because you can just chase them until all their muta/corruptor is dead. If you can do some damage with your HT/stalker composition to their muta/corruptor ball, then your phoenixes can just clean up. Mostly just remember that your phoenixes can kite the muta/corruptor indefinitely and once you get your phoenix numbers up you can wittle down his air quickly.
I almost never see direct muta/corruptor openings on ladder, though, so you probably wouldn't have to play against it that often unless it becomes the new flavour. It seems to be a little more popular in GM play(I've seen from watching streams), but I'm mid-masters and I pretty much never see it.
For swarm host composition that adds in/transitions to corruptor/muta I usually have archon/HT to go with my collosi and it seems to work ok. I haven't seen much about how pro players are dealing with this, but in my games I've had a lot of success with archon/collosus vs. swarm host since even if they transition, your archons can do okay in defending your collosi against air, and if they commit heavily to the air you can drop stargates and make phoenix while stalling with HT/archon/stalkers.
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When i open robo expand vs stargate is blink the proper response to overproduced pheonix?. Even when I get blink they still pick off probes and get behind. I tried a timing attack(as suggested) with blink stalker with chargelots and archons but it doesnt work out to well vs voidray chargelot phenix with photon overcharge.
replay: http://drop.sc/321763
Was it bad timing/execution. Could I have had better defense with blink stalkers? Should I have not overcommitted?
I am clueless as to what I could have done differently.
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After experimenting with different tech choices against the same tech path I find myself in a bad spot. I still can't beat mass muta corrupter. Or atleast when a good zerg does it and doesn't make glaring mistakes I almost always lose. I've tried just about everything, I almost exclusively open sg in pvz, so ive tried staker pheonix, ive tried storm, I feel as if no matter what you do zerg is so far ahead. You cant harass them, while they can deny your bases. So ive had games where even if I don't take damage, i still end up losing. Its almost impossible to move out vs it, you instantly lose a base if you try to, any tips from anyone would be valued at this point.
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On April 11 2013 14:14 jcroisdale wrote:
In WoL I liked using a 4gate robo style in PvZ. Taking my third, twilight, council, and robo bay all around 830-9 minutes.
I have been using a the same basic style in HOTS, scouting with hallucination normally when I would see mutas i would go blink/storm, which doesn't seem to be the best choice in HOTS. So we are left with double SG phoenix, but by the time I scout its to late to throw down 2 SGS and get enough phx to stop his the harass.
My question is, is it possible to still take a third off of just 4gateRobo or do I need to just open Sg -> 4gate robo -> third.
As far as I know, Stargate is the only viable opening vs Zerg unless you scout that he is not taking a third base. You can defend 2Base Mutas with Blink/Storm.
The new Mutas are so strong that they completely ignore Storm, they are out of it so quickly and then regen the lost HP in the blink of an eye.
Go Stargate -> Robo 4Gate
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On April 11 2013 19:56 swagsurgeon wrote:
After experimenting with different tech choices against the same tech path I find myself in a bad spot. I still can't beat mass muta corrupter. Or atleast when a good zerg does it and doesn't make glaring mistakes I almost always lose. I've tried just about everything, I almost exclusively open sg in pvz, so ive tried staker pheonix, ive tried storm, I feel as if no matter what you do zerg is so far ahead. You cant harass them, while they can deny your bases. So ive had games where even if I don't take damage, i still end up losing. Its almost impossible to move out vs it, you instantly lose a base if you try to, any tips from anyone would be valued at this point.
Muta Corrutpor loses to Phoenix Void Ray if you target correctly. VRs just eat Corruptors so quickly same with Phoenix vs Mutas.
In this situation I would also advise to get shield upgrades and slowly tech to Storm.
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Ok, someone PLEASE help me with PvZ, im losing every game vs Z and its really starting to make me mad. Last I held a 7 roach rush comfortable losing like 4-5 probes, was waaaay ahead in economy early - midgame, then got demolished by swarmhost/ hydra/ corruptos/ overseer. I had no idea what to do. I thought of skytoss but the transitions is really hard to do, any tips on transitioning from a ground army with good upgrades to skytoss with no upgrades?
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On April 11 2013 16:31 Teoita wrote:
Read my last post, salv's post, and the questions in the OP. Generally, both star/4gate/robo and robo expand are viable.
It's a really changed matchup so it's really really hard to just write a complete overview rather than answering specific questions; the biggest change is that you don't have to kill Z before infr/broodlord since we are now (appearently) stronger in the lategame.
Have you played against Catz bag of tricks? Swarm host, viper, infestor + AA if u go air or Hydra Ultra if ground. Just saw minigun being insanely ahead in the mid and endgame but once catz got it up he simply couldn't win. He tried just about everything since he was filthy rich. This combo seems to be the "new" broodlord infestor, Day9 covered it in a daily a day ago or so and it just seems unbreakable if it gets up.
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On April 11 2013 21:00 Gamma4 wrote:
Ok, someone PLEASE help me with PvZ, im losing every game vs Z and its really starting to make me mad. Last I held a 7 roach rush comfortable losing like 4-5 probes, was waaaay ahead in economy early - midgame, then got demolished by swarmhost/ hydra/ corruptos/ overseer. I had no idea what to do. I thought of skytoss but the transitions is really hard to do, any tips on transitioning from a ground army with good upgrades to skytoss with no upgrades?
I'm only diamond, but after holding a roach rush/baneling bust I just go Immortal all-in (2-3 immortals, 6-7 sentries, stalkers). If he goes early pool, I go proxy 3 gate and kill him (look at page 37 for the full guide on this). For macro game I suggest you watch this replay I got from Desrow himself: http://drop.sc/315792 (ffe-->stargate-->4 gate pressure)
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Italy12248 Posts
You should do whatever you damn well please after holding off a roach rush, please post a replay. Most zergs gg out after they fail it.
Have you played against Catz bag of tricks? Swarm host, viper, infestor + AA if u go air or Hydra Ultra if ground. Just saw minigun being insanely ahead in the mid and endgame but once catz got it up he simply couldn't win. He tried just about everything since he was filthy rich. This combo seems to be the "new" broodlord infestor, Day9 covered it in a daily a day ago or so and it just seems unbreakable if it gets up.
Yes. Never beaten it but i've never played well either, so dunno. On paper having good templar micro and a high colossus count should allow you to fight it head on, and ofc warp prism harassment vs that kind of turtly play can be very strong.
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On April 11 2013 23:58 Teoita wrote:You should do whatever you damn well please after holding off a roach rush, please post a replay. Most zergs gg out after they fail it. Show nested quote +
Have you played against Catz bag of tricks? Swarm host, viper, infestor + AA if u go air or Hydra Ultra if ground. Just saw minigun being insanely ahead in the mid and endgame but once catz got it up he simply couldn't win. He tried just about everything since he was filthy rich. This combo seems to be the "new" broodlord infestor, Day9 covered it in a daily a day ago or so and it just seems unbreakable if it gets up.
Yes. Never beaten it but i've never played well either, so dunno. On paper having good templar micro and a high colossus count should allow you to fight it head on, and ofc warp prism harassment vs that kind of turtly play can be very strong.
Yes i theorize that you have to max out without getting baited to close so vipers keep pulling stuff in and then just go balls to the walls all or nothing. That might mean sacrificing an expansion under siege however while you max. I haven't tried flanking it yet since i haven´t had a chance but i also think if you can get a decent flank of aka not have to run through a gauntlet of spines to get to his stuff you should smash it.
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Hey guys, I just can't play macro in PvT against mech. It seems like my problem isn't my early game, but my late game. Actually I'm trying to play some macro games in PvT because I do like macro game, but it's so hard now times D: Last week I was going for some allins with Void Rays or Oracle, but it isn't working anymore.
Basically the terran waited to attack me until he got 200/200. He was 2/3 and he had some hellbats, but he made a lot of tanks D: I had 6 imm and 7 archons, but it didn't help that much. Is my army composition wrong?
If u wanna some replay to help me: http://sc2shr.com/BDW
Ty everyone ((:
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Anyone figured out how to beat 2 base swarmhost nydus all in yet? I loosely call it an all in, because it's really not as the zerg takes the map while you struggle to get out 8 colossi to get out of your base. Double robo colossi just doesn't cut it.
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Hey guys, Diamond toss here, having trouble with 6 pool into 2 base ling/muta into 3base ling/bane muta/corrupter. I have no problem surviving the six pool and then getting up my nat. I'm just wondering if anyone has run into this build and what they've had success doing. I was going for DTs, but they were scouted. Because of his high ling count I assumed muta and started phoenix production. Had a few bad engagements and just got starved out.
Maybe I need storm, maybe I need better engagements. Maybe I need better transitions out of defending the six pool. Would love some advice/suggestions.
Here is a replay:
http://drop.sc/321835
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Northern Ireland27464 Posts
Get a few sentries up and use hallucinated phoenix to check on what he's actually doing, his tech and his drone count etc. Having that information is great, plus it allows you to skip a Robo for obs for a little bit and get other tech up
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Also, anyone faced 1-1-1 with widow mines yet? Seems like 5g robo doesn't stop it anymore now that your zealots disappear in a flash, and flanking is impossible because you can't leave your base for fear of widow mine drops.
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EPT
