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+ Show Spoiler +On April 10 2013 07:03 Ben... wrote:Ok, here is a build that I have only seen once on NA but a few times on KR, but I honestly don't know how to tell it apart from a regular quick gas opening. Unfortunately this is a worse version of it, because the best replay I had of a guy from a known Korean clan doing it (which was much more crisply done) was lost when my SSD I had most of my replays on died the other day. Firstly, I was kinda tilted playing because I had just played 2 PvPs before this game and lost both so I wasn't playing 100% but still mostly there. I goofed up my wall but it wouldn't have made a difference (usually the forge is near the ramp with the opening on the other side of the natural). The build is a crazy fast roach/ling all-in that looks like a standard hatch into speed opening. My initial scout probe died so I went to send another and it was already hitting. I know I was supply blocked when it hit, but the slight delay to my voidray again would not have helped. He did too much damage (which is the same thing that happened on the KR versions of this too. It does a ton of damage really fast). However, this Zerg's rendition isn't nearly as good as the previously mentioned one from the Korean server. The other one opened with this low-drone, mass unit attack but afterward didn't make more units but instead droned and got a third behind it, making it much stronger because it still messed me up a ton but wasn't nearly as all-in. Here's the replay: http://drop.sc/321260Also, 2 people have been promoted to Master after playing me today. Kinda demoralizing hahaha.
When he started his roach warren he has no units at all, so if you had moved your probe in you might of seen it. You should of at least checked his gas.
As for the defense, since you did not scout his third and you knew he had gas I would of gone msc before stargate, You would of still lost your buildings at the front if he committed his roaches, but he was only on 24 drones so that;s fine. I am afraid it just comes down to being caught playing greedy while not having enough information, which we all do sometimes.
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On April 10 2013 07:13 hzflank wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 10 2013 07:03 Ben... wrote:Ok, here is a build that I have only seen once on NA but a few times on KR, but I honestly don't know how to tell it apart from a regular quick gas opening. Unfortunately this is a worse version of it, because the best replay I had of a guy from a known Korean clan doing it (which was much more crisply done) was lost when my SSD I had most of my replays on died the other day. Firstly, I was kinda tilted playing because I had just played 2 PvPs before this game and lost both so I wasn't playing 100% but still mostly there. I goofed up my wall but it wouldn't have made a difference (usually the forge is near the ramp with the opening on the other side of the natural). The build is a crazy fast roach/ling all-in that looks like a standard hatch into speed opening. My initial scout probe died so I went to send another and it was already hitting. I know I was supply blocked when it hit, but the slight delay to my voidray again would not have helped. He did too much damage (which is the same thing that happened on the KR versions of this too. It does a ton of damage really fast). However, this Zerg's rendition isn't nearly as good as the previously mentioned one from the Korean server. The other one opened with this low-drone, mass unit attack but afterward didn't make more units but instead droned and got a third behind it, making it much stronger because it still messed me up a ton but wasn't nearly as all-in. Here's the replay: http://drop.sc/321260Also, 2 people have been promoted to Master after playing me today. Kinda demoralizing hahaha. When he started his roach warren he has no units at all, so if you had moved your probe in you might of seen it. You should of at least checked his gas. As for the defense, since you did not scout his third and you knew he had gas I would of gone msc before stargate, You would of still lost your buildings at the front if he committed his roaches, but he was only on 24 drones so that;s fine. I am afraid it just comes down to being caught playing greedy while not having enough information, which we all do sometimes. Yeah that is true. I should have gone mothership core. Yeah probably was too greedy. I normally am really good with scouting but when I get annoyed I start scouting less it seems.
Man today is the day of gimmicky one-off builds. Just faced a basically one base nydus swarmhost rush (he used the natural for gas only) where he went for like 6 spores around the swarmhosts and killed my wall before I could get a response. Swarm Hosts are getting really old really fast. I also faced proxy 2rax reapers, which was really crappy and easy to beat.
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On April 10 2013 02:26 .kv wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 02:01 HeyJude wrote:On April 09 2013 18:43 HeyJude wrote:
I checked the OP and don't see anything about how to execute a 4-gate with MSC. I've tried various builds and it seems like if I'm able to get out an MSC it means cutting the early stalker(s) so I have to add a 2nd gas, but then I end up with loads of extra gas. If someone could post or link a replay with a well executed 4-gate with MSC I'd appreciate it. So does anyone have a decent, game-tested 4-gate w/ MSC? I guess if I went double zealot for my first 2 units instead of a stalker it could work, but then I'd lose the harass factor. ***and if I open 4gate and a terran opens fast widow mines/drop that's basically a build order loss right? Or is there some way I can recover? Really sucks that a mine one-shots stalkers  That's the downside to that build which is why you don't see many do that build...its just overall bad...its better if you do a tech/Msc/gateway allin instead if you so choose to
Yeah man I've just been doing 4gate because I play as random and toss is by far my weakest macro race so I prefer just ending games quick. By tech/Msc/gateway all-in do you mean off one base or two, and should I be throwing immortals and +1 into this?
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Hello, I'm a Diamond Protoss having a lot of trouble dealing with heavy mech styles in PvT right now. I just see my opponents go mech, and feel a bit lost. I assume I should go double robo, or is stargate a better choice? In the replay I'm posting, I end up a bit behind because of his hidden expo that I never scouted, should I have been pressuring him more throughout the game? I'm just totally in the dark on how to deal with this style of play.
http://drop.sc/321330
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On April 10 2013 10:02 BestWaffelz wrote:Hello, I'm a Diamond Protoss having a lot of trouble dealing with heavy mech styles in PvT right now. I just see my opponents go mech, and feel a bit lost. I assume I should go double robo, or is stargate a better choice? In the replay I'm posting, I end up a bit behind because of his hidden expo that I never scouted, should I have been pressuring him more throughout the game? I'm just totally in the dark on how to deal with this style of play. http://drop.sc/321330
see 'how to deal with mech' on page 1.
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On April 10 2013 10:16 TarLaPaN wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 10:02 BestWaffelz wrote:Hello, I'm a Diamond Protoss having a lot of trouble dealing with heavy mech styles in PvT right now. I just see my opponents go mech, and feel a bit lost. I assume I should go double robo, or is stargate a better choice? In the replay I'm posting, I end up a bit behind because of his hidden expo that I never scouted, should I have been pressuring him more throughout the game? I'm just totally in the dark on how to deal with this style of play. http://drop.sc/321330 see 'how to deal with mech' on page 1.
That seems like a pretty vague response, and the thor/hellbat he had just melted through all the immortals I was pumping out
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On April 10 2013 10:25 BestWaffelz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 10:16 TarLaPaN wrote:On April 10 2013 10:02 BestWaffelz wrote:Hello, I'm a Diamond Protoss having a lot of trouble dealing with heavy mech styles in PvT right now. I just see my opponents go mech, and feel a bit lost. I assume I should go double robo, or is stargate a better choice? In the replay I'm posting, I end up a bit behind because of his hidden expo that I never scouted, should I have been pressuring him more throughout the game? I'm just totally in the dark on how to deal with this style of play. http://drop.sc/321330 see 'how to deal with mech' on page 1. That seems like a pretty vague response, and the thor/hellbat he had just melted through all the immortals I was pumping out
immortals, add in some archons, and get blink stalkers. Colo are a bad choice against mech, the splash damage is not as effective and you are vulnerable to vikings (He had no incentive to build medivacs so vikings are not out of the way). I usually recommend avoiding air units only because most mech play includes raven's hunter seeker missile and thors. Rely on high templar feed back + archon damage soaking and use mobility against your enemy. Pressure with prism warp-ins when your opponent moves out, and trade armies as often as you can. Mech is strongest in large numbers. if you keep his count low, you will not have to worry about an unbreakable death ball.
If he hits with an early game timing attack, just buy your self enough time to get more cost effective units, avoid engaging zealots into hell bats.
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On April 10 2013 07:03 Ben... wrote:Ok, here is a build that I have only seen once on NA but a few times on KR, but I honestly don't know how to tell it apart from a regular quick gas opening. Unfortunately this is a worse version of it, because the best replay I had of a guy from a known Korean clan doing it (which was much more crisply done) was lost when my SSD I had most of my replays on died the other day. Firstly, I was kinda tilted playing because I had just played 2 PvPs before this game and lost both so I wasn't playing 100% but still mostly there. I goofed up my wall but it wouldn't have made a difference (usually the forge is near the ramp with the opening on the other side of the natural). The build is a crazy fast roach/ling all-in that looks like a standard hatch into speed opening. My initial scout probe died so I went to send another and it was already hitting. I know I was supply blocked when it hit, but the slight delay to my voidray again would not have helped. He did too much damage (which is the same thing that happened on the KR versions of this too. It does a ton of damage really fast). However, this Zerg's rendition isn't nearly as good as the previously mentioned one from the Korean server. The other one opened with this low-drone, mass unit attack but afterward didn't make more units but instead droned and got a third behind it, making it much stronger because it still messed me up a ton but wasn't nearly as all-in. Here's the replay: http://drop.sc/321260Also, 2 people have been promoted to Master after playing me today. Kinda demoralizing hahaha.
Once you'd seen the gas you needed to be adamant about scouting his third. No third by 5 or 5:30 = what I like to call on stream, the time to shit my pants. Extra cannon, chrono sentries, get msc and sg, and get full vision of my base. Also, your wall lends itself to mass speedling, they can push right past that zealot. Try using a different sim city setup.
http://i.imgur.com/gqophRI.jpg
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Austria24417 Posts
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On April 10 2013 05:29 Kinon wrote:Hello gosu TL users, I've been trying a PvZ build for a while now, and I think I'm ready to receive some feedback for it. The build in question is ffe-->stargate-->4 gate pressure-->3 base push. The replay I got from Desrow, so it should work very well at my level (diamond). This is the first game: http://drop.sc/321244 It went really good for me, that's my usual play. I cut quite a lot of probes, but I don't think it's that bad. Should have got a 4th, but I was convinced he wouldn't survive my push. Second game: http://drop.sc/321243This game was tricky: - I tried to stall his natural, but I think I overextended and my forge was too late. - he slipped 2 lings in my main and delayed my 4 gate pressure by about a minute. - I killed his third and a ton of overlords, but his counterpush was realy damn good and I lost my third. - My colossus was late, but his macro was still too good in my opinion. So, here are my questions: - Do you have anything to add/change to my build? - Usually after the push I go Colossus tech, get 2 void rays+ MSC, 1 immortal and whatever I can warp in. In that last replay this wasn't enough, should I go more sentry heavy? Or what composition? - Any general feedback? Thanks in advance, gl hf!
I don't want to seem too persistent, but I'd really like some feedback here.
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What do you guys think about the Phoenix opener in PvZ? I have tried opening robo for a few days but i am wondering if a stargate + phoenix opener is a better choice. With this i can scout more early and i force my oppo in a certain direction.
What do you guys think and recommend me?
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Italy12246 Posts
Imo it's a great opener, i do it in basically every pvz. You do need good mechanics to pull it off, but at the very least it's a great way to practice multitasking.
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On April 10 2013 19:38 Kinon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 05:29 Kinon wrote:Hello gosu TL users, I've been trying a PvZ build for a while now, and I think I'm ready to receive some feedback for it. The build in question is ffe-->stargate-->4 gate pressure-->3 base push. The replay I got from Desrow, so it should work very well at my level (diamond). This is the first game: http://drop.sc/321244 It went really good for me, that's my usual play. I cut quite a lot of probes, but I don't think it's that bad. Should have got a 4th, but I was convinced he wouldn't survive my push. Second game: http://drop.sc/321243This game was tricky: - I tried to stall his natural, but I think I overextended and my forge was too late. - he slipped 2 lings in my main and delayed my 4 gate pressure by about a minute. - I killed his third and a ton of overlords, but his counterpush was realy damn good and I lost my third. - My colossus was late, but his macro was still too good in my opinion. So, here are my questions: - Do you have anything to add/change to my build? - Usually after the push I go Colossus tech, get 2 void rays+ MSC, 1 immortal and whatever I can warp in. In that last replay this wasn't enough, should I go more sentry heavy? Or what composition? - Any general feedback? Thanks in advance, gl hf! I don't want to seem too persistent, but I'd really like some feedback here.
There's not much to say, your build is fine, maybe just chrono your warpgate tech more, a FFE > stargate > 4 gate can hit at 8:00. You lost game 2 because you had no sentries, you don't need a ton but having 3-4 for forcefields and a guardian shield will easily change the battle. Roach/hydra (or pretty much any ground zerg army) can easily a-move through whatever ground army you have (even those with colossi) unless you make use of spellcasters.
Nothing else really stood out, your macro is definitely better than your micro, you should try to micro stalkers a bit and take better care of your phoenix.
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On April 10 2013 20:59 Teoita wrote:
Imo it's a great opener, i do it in basically every pvz. You do need good mechanics to pull it off, but at the very least it's a great way to practice multitasking.
I'm top diamond at this point so i should be able to pull it off the right way, right? Think i'm just going to focus on this opening.
I failed with a robo opening multiple times. Every time the zerg scouted it they just rushed for muta's. By the time i am able to scout this with a robo the spire is already finished and i am way to late to respond ;(
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Italy12246 Posts
Well let's put it this way...Minigun doesn't like opening stargate because he says it's too hard for him. I'm waaaay worse than he is and i love going stargate. Just try it and see how it goes.
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Well if you go Stargate you are suspectible to midgame roach/hydra pushes (as we recently saw in proleague where hero lost against soulkey on bel'shir vestige) if you dont get out your robobay/templar archives or deal crippling damage with your phoenix (which is really hard, because even if you kill 10-15 drones, the push still can just kill u while u "just did some eco damage"
Edit: @ Teotita, Minigun obviously plays people who are alot better than your opponents aswell 
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On April 10 2013 21:08 Nipje wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 20:59 Teoita wrote:
Imo it's a great opener, i do it in basically every pvz. You do need good mechanics to pull it off, but at the very least it's a great way to practice multitasking. I'm top diamond at this point so i should be able to pull it off the right way, right? Think i'm just going to focus on this opening. I failed with a robo opening multiple times. Every time the zerg scouted it they just rushed for muta's. By the time i am able to scout this with a robo the spire is already finished and i am way to late to respond ;(
Opening robo against spire shouldn't be as big of an issue as everyone makes it out to be. If you open robo against 3 base spire, your obs should get to his base way before the spire finishes. If the zerg is going 2 base, you should be scouting with a hallucinated phoenix (you should have an early sentry against 2 base play), and respond reactively with 2 stargates. IMO a robo for obs is very important against mutas anyway.
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On April 10 2013 21:25 rsvp wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 21:08 Nipje wrote:On April 10 2013 20:59 Teoita wrote:
Imo it's a great opener, i do it in basically every pvz. You do need good mechanics to pull it off, but at the very least it's a great way to practice multitasking. I'm top diamond at this point so i should be able to pull it off the right way, right? Think i'm just going to focus on this opening. I failed with a robo opening multiple times. Every time the zerg scouted it they just rushed for muta's. By the time i am able to scout this with a robo the spire is already finished and i am way to late to respond ;( Opening robo against spire shouldn't be as big of an issue as everyone makes it out to be. If you open robo against 3 base spire, your obs should get to his base way before the spire finishes. If the zerg is going 2 base, you should be scouting with a hallucinated phoenix (you should have an early sentry against 2 base play), and respond reactively with 2 stargates. IMO a robo for obs is very important against mutas anyway.
He indeed went for a 2base play. Still my hallucination was late and i did have a early sentry. Spire will still be almost ready when your phoenix arrives ;(. What league are you if i may ask? Just curious. If you confirm robo openings are fine in higher leagues then i can try and continue with it.
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EPT
