EPTThe HotS Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 51
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders. | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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Bahamuth
134 Posts
On April 10 2013 21:25 rsvp wrote: Opening robo against spire shouldn't be as big of an issue as everyone makes it out to be. If you open robo against 3 base spire, your obs should get to his base way before the spire finishes. If the zerg is going 2 base, you should be scouting with a hallucinated phoenix (you should have an early sentry against 2 base play), and respond reactively with 2 stargates. IMO a robo for obs is very important against mutas anyway. What if the Spire is 'protected' by a Spore Crawler? Since many Zergs are getting pre-emptive spores nowadays, couldn't that be a problem (or when I just fly my Obs into a Spore like an idiot...). Additionally, what do you think about 1 gate expands in PvP? I rarely see them at high levels, and trying them myself, I've lost to players that open Stargate and get 2 Oracles which gets them ahead, or against straight up 3 gate pressure that killed my nexus through Photon Overcharge. | ||
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FireMonkey
Australia105 Posts
also in pvp i go 2 gate expand because 1 gate expand you dont get enough units out to hold protoss pressure 2 gate expand lets you do that be aggressive as well | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On April 10 2013 23:40 FireMonkey wrote: I use hallucinated phoenix to scout, they are faster and beefier than standard obs. Speaking of that, if i want to play a completely reactionary play, so everything i do is reaction to my opponent including tech path, when would i need my first sentry? with the first 100 gas or second 100 gas?? With hallucination no longer researchable i want to play reactionary style so in pvz I will only put my tech down to be the direct counter to his tech and so on. then ill be unbeatable theoretically... also in pvp i go 2 gate expand because 1 gate expand you dont get enough units out to hold protoss pressure 2 gate expand lets you do that be aggressive as well Both are fine depends on the build you are doing. When i open stargate my first 100 gas goes into a stalker and warpgate, the next 150 into the stargate, the next 50 into a second stalker (i use both to deny scouting), and then i make a sentry, but it's acceptable to get a faster sentry as well. It really is personal preference. Regarding PvP, a passive 1gate expand and 2/3 gateway aggression into expand are different builds, both have their pros and cons. 1gate FE into robo with a purify can hold off even a delayed 4gate though, as shown by Squirtle vs Super in the IPTL finals. | ||
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hzflank
United Kingdom2991 Posts
On April 10 2013 22:23 Bahamuth wrote: What if the Spire is 'protected' by a Spore Crawler? Since many Zergs are getting pre-emptive spores nowadays, couldn't that be a problem (or when I just fly my Obs into a Spore like an idiot...). Additionally, what do you think about 1 gate expands in PvP? I rarely see them at high levels, and trying them myself, I've lost to players that open Stargate and get 2 Oracles which gets them ahead, or against straight up 3 gate pressure that killed my nexus through Photon Overcharge. The observers vision range is a lot bigger than the spores attack range. The spores vision range is longer than it's attack range, so if you are not careful you could been seen by the spore and attacked by a queen. Either way, your first observer is one of the things that you cannot forget to control. Let something else slip and focus on that scouting. I've lost every time I tried to 1 gate expand in pvp so I cannot give any good advice on that part. If it's worth anything, I have won most or all of the games where I did a 1 gate stargate expand off of zealot > sentry > zealot + msc. The other common fast expand would be 1 gate dark shrine expand into 3 gate, but personally that has not worked for me (it's worth playing with, though). | ||
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Ben...
Canada3485 Posts
On April 10 2013 15:27 ThaReckoning wrote: Yeah I normally do the wall-off DarkLordOlli linked, as I said in my post (forge near ramp, opening as far away from ramp as possible). I just wasn't paying attention that game and did my wall-off backwards hahaha. Of course it is always that one time I mess up my wall-off that I get all-inned, never when I have it set up correctly and am actually prepared.Once you'd seen the gas you needed to be adamant about scouting his third. No third by 5 or 5:30 = what I like to call on stream, the time to shit my pants. Extra cannon, chrono sentries, get msc and sg, and get full vision of my base. Also, your wall lends itself to mass speedling, they can push right past that zealot. Try using a different sim city setup. http://i.imgur.com/gqophRI.jpg Looking back on that replay today, wow I was playing terrible. I didn't really scout, didn't wall-off right, my production was subpar and I got supply blocked early in the game. That never usually happens with me but I guess we all have off days. | ||
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aldochillbro
187 Posts
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Mellon
Sweden917 Posts
On April 11 2013 05:50 aldochillbro wrote: how agressive can you be with blink stalkers mid-late game pvt? can you get away from MMM without heavy losses? If you know exactly where he got his army and can avoid it you can agressive. You should not however engage mmm since the chance of picking off 1 or 2 units is way less than saving all your stalkers. Stimmed mm will catch up if they are persistant. | ||
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Salv
Canada3083 Posts
The main problems I am having in all of my matchups is that I don't know what to do after I get my first tech option. PvZ for example, I will usually open FFE into robo into observer then colossus. I like to get a quick robotics for observers and then I make colossi because they're pretty good versus roach, necessary versus swarm host, good versus hydra/roach. The problem I am having is that some games I will do this, expand at 10 minutes and I scout my opponent but now I am unsure. If they tech to ultralisks I need a second robo; if they broodlord I need tempest; if they tech viper I need templars; if they get corruptors I need void ray. I feel that what happens is that if I wait to see what tech they show me and then respond, it's too late. Secondly, PvP, I usually open with a quick expansion off a MSC and sentry and then tech robotics for observers to scout my opponent. If I see phoenix, oracles, void rays I really don't know what to do. I'm trying to avoid mass phoenix vs phoenix so I usually don't counter with my own stargate. Archons seem good, but I don't know if I should build them off high templar or dark templar. If I get them with high templar am I even able to get both storm and archons? Is that way way too gas heavy for three base versus void ray? Some illumination my Protoss brethren please! | ||
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Valestrum
United States246 Posts
Everything I try doesn't really seem to counter it or even exchange evenly with it. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
As far as playing vs Stargate in PvP, see the OP. There's some pretty good rsvp replays in this thread that show exactly the situation you are describing. @poster above me: you need to outmicro, outposition and outmultitask the terran, there's no hard counter to his army composition. One tip to make micro easier is to go with a high colossus count (7ish) and storm the vikings instead of the bio, which are usually much easier to target. Once the vikings get stormed to death your colossi will be free to do their damage. | ||
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Mugya
36 Posts
On April 11 2013 06:20 Salv wrote: I know this question is a bit general, but I've contributed to this thread a decent amount and I am hoping I can get a blue response. I am mid master. The main problems I am having in all of my matchups is that I don't know what to do after I get my first tech option. PvZ for example, I will usually open FFE into robo into observer then colossus. I like to get a quick robotics for observers and then I make colossi because they're pretty good versus roach, necessary versus swarm host, good versus hydra/roach. The problem I am having is that some games I will do this, expand at 10 minutes and I scout my opponent but now I am unsure. If they tech to ultralisks I need a second robo; if they broodlord I need tempest; if they tech viper I need templars; if they get corruptors I need void ray. I feel that what happens is that if I wait to see what tech they show me and then respond, it's too late. Secondly, PvP, I usually open with a quick expansion off a MSC and sentry and then tech robotics for observers to scout my opponent. If I see phoenix, oracles, void rays I really don't know what to do. I'm trying to avoid mass phoenix vs phoenix so I usually don't counter with my own stargate. Archons seem good, but I don't know if I should build them off high templar or dark templar. If I get them with high templar am I even able to get both storm and archons? Is that way way too gas heavy for three base versus void ray? Some illumination my Protoss brethren please! Hello! For me, I've found that doing my Hallucinate between 8:00-8:30 (two of them) will pretty much give me all the information I need to react. For me, I tend not to get the Robo Bay (I usually open Robo then Twilight then get my 3rd) until I confirm Hydra/Roach or Swarm Host (which then I'll get the Robo Bay, a 2nd Robo, then make a 2nd Cyber and Forge in my main as I'll most likely lose them at some point; staying on two bases with the way 2-base SH works is fine since my econ will be fine and I'll just add Gateways and rebuild the Cyber/Forge so I don't have downtime on replenishing Stalkers/upgrades). I think the current norm that Zergs do is get both a Spire and Hydra Den at the same time, which is the only case that it's kind of tough. Ideally, you'd have an Observer at that point and looking to see what they build out of one of their bases, whether it's Mutas or Hydras. Another thing you could possibly do is put your Observer near their Hydralisk Den and see if it's upgrading anything, which would then be indicative of Hydralisk production most likely. I know people like getting VRs for BLs, but I'm personally a fan of Tempests, as I feel they're more effective in either forcing a retreat or a reaction from the Zerg player. Regarding your PvP inquiry, I think if you can manage to get 3 bases against a Stargate player, then Storm and Archons is fine, as Storm is amazing against mass VRs. In regards to mass Phoenixes, I would keep a few more HTs in my main army so I have more Storms available (which then would also lead to less VRs if they're massing Phoenixes, so you can get more Stalkers in your main core since it's harder for them to trade Phoenixes for Stalkers. | ||
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
On April 10 2013 22:23 Bahamuth wrote: Additionally, what do you think about 1 gate expands in PvP? I rarely see them at high levels, and trying them myself, I've lost to players that open Stargate and get 2 Oracles which gets them ahead, or against straight up 3 gate pressure that killed my nexus through Photon Overcharge. I've experimented with 1 gate expands a lot in PvP and unfortunately it does seem like 3 gate stargate kinda kills it. Generally you need sentries to hold against gateway aggression, but stargate units counter sentries. If you knew for sure he was going stargate you can try mass stalker, but that will die to other builds. Overall I'd recommend using it if you were able to scout your opponent's build out early on so you know how to react or suspect that he's not going to go stargate. | ||
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Xahhk
Canada540 Posts
On April 11 2013 06:25 Valestrum wrote: I've asked before but no one answered; What units do I make against a Terran with both ghosts and vikings? Everything I try doesn't really seem to counter it or even exchange evenly with it. You get both collossus and high templar and try to beat him with good control. If you have enough control and positioning awareness you get into a kind of stalemate situation where he is sending in snipiing squads of marauders marines to kill off templar, and you are sending in zealots high templar to feedback. He will likely start doing doom drops with his fast medivacs at that point. Just be aware of his unit comp and be ready to make ample amounts of either templar or collosus. If his viking count gets wiped out for instance, you will have some collossus viability till gets it way back up once again. Have like 3 robotics ready for such late game scenarios. | ||
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Salv
Canada3083 Posts
On April 11 2013 06:27 Teoita wrote:As far as playing vs Stargate in PvP, see the OP. There's some pretty good rsvp replays in this thread that show exactly the situation you are describing. If you're going to counter with chargelot / archon bust do you use HT or DT to make the archons? | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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Mugya
36 Posts
On April 11 2013 07:59 Salv wrote: Mugya, thank you for your response, I really appreciate it. If you're going to counter with chargelot / archon bust do you use HT or DT to make the archons? Sorry I forgot to respond to this part. For the most part I'd say you want to warp Archons with High Templars. Zealots are definitely a core of your army regardless of your overall composition, as they serve their purpose of soaking up the bulk of the initial damage it should be your heavy gas units vs his when both your zealots are gone. | ||
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Mellon
Sweden917 Posts
On April 11 2013 06:20 Salv wrote: I know this question is a bit general, but I've contributed to this thread a decent amount and I am hoping I can get a blue response. I am mid master. The main problems I am having in all of my matchups is that I don't know what to do after I get my first tech option. PvZ for example, I will usually open FFE into robo into observer then colossus. I like to get a quick robotics for observers and then I make colossi because they're pretty good versus roach, necessary versus swarm host, good versus hydra/roach. The problem I am having is that some games I will do this, expand at 10 minutes and I scout my opponent but now I am unsure. If they tech to ultralisks I need a second robo; if they broodlord I need tempest; if they tech viper I need templars; if they get corruptors I need void ray. I feel that what happens is that if I wait to see what tech they show me and then respond, it's too late. Secondly, PvP, I usually open with a quick expansion off a MSC and sentry and then tech robotics for observers to scout my opponent. If I see phoenix, oracles, void rays I really don't know what to do. I'm trying to avoid mass phoenix vs phoenix so I usually don't counter with my own stargate. Archons seem good, but I don't know if I should build them off high templar or dark templar. If I get them with high templar am I even able to get both storm and archons? Is that way way too gas heavy for three base versus void ray? Some illumination my Protoss brethren please! The first question you kinda answer yourself. I've found that you have to be really good with scouting in pvz, and if you do it should be your game. Zerg can throw alot of stuff at us, which all need hard counters. You scout muta production, get 2 stargates and it will be shut down. You see SH? Get Colossi. You see Hive tech? Get ht (if viper) and generally just void rays are strong vs most Hive tech. In PVP, storm is a necessity vs Void's. I like going for ht unless i can use my DT's offensively and do some econ damage, depending on his build. If he went stargate it could be worth taking the chance on a few DT's. Since his oracle (if he got one) might be out of place, and he can't use it for harass or scouting if u show DT's. Otherwise HT with storm and about 1 archon per base + some stalkers/cannons and i really like feedbacking phoenix with about 2 ht's so i can merge into archon to save them. It's abit rock/paper/scissor atm i feel. Skytoss > colossi > Templar > Skytoss, that's about it. | ||
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Salv
Canada3083 Posts
On April 11 2013 08:00 Teoita wrote: It's not a bust. You pressure with 7gate blink and like a couple of archons, your goal is to take a faster third than him and tech to storm, but you aren't aiming for a kill (even though you definitely can kill him if he messes up, monk's beaten me that way a couple of times). HT's than DT's are better because eventually you want to go storm. Thanks ;-) Thank you Mellon as well, I'll be putting this to use tomorrow on my stream. | ||
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jcroisdale
United States1543 Posts
I have been using a the same basic style in HOTS, scouting with hallucination normally when I would see mutas i would go blink/storm, which doesn't seem to be the best choice in HOTS. So we are left with double SG phoenix, but by the time I scout its to late to throw down 2 SGS and get enough phx to stop his the harass. My question is, is it possible to still take a third off of just 4gateRobo or do I need to just open Sg -> 4gate robo -> third. | ||
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