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erm this may notbe a totally 'viable' strat and i havent played enough protoss to work out all the transitions and stuff, but 2 base carrier seems to deal with the 2 base swarmhost thing quite nicely as carriers are pretty good versus spores and queens.
you build a stargate after ffe and then build 2nd stargate and fleet beacon when that finishes. Then chrono out 2 carriers, and use this and mothership core to 'harrass' as can recall if carriers get low on health.
hydras are actually not good versus carriers so long as you have good positioning and keep your carriers protected and if they go for mass muta you already have double stargate and fleat beacon for pheonix range.
due to muta regen and speed I have not found a good way to beat mass muta with ground troops (the drg versus that protoss in gsl really long game is a great example of how its just so hard to deal with the mutas without beating him in the air) therefore this is the main reason I like this style.
I copied the opening off of white-ra not sure if i transition the same way he does, but here is white ra doing it against 2 base swarm host http://www.twitch.tv/whitera/c/2048378
edit: rewatching white ra vod its not nydus with queens but I think the same concepts still apply, its worth trying at least
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Any high master or Gm replay out there vs the 2 base swarm host contain? Thx in advance.
Oh and winning lol, I have 2, both the P losing u.u
On April 12 2013 14:25 ThePianoDentist wrote:
due to muta regen and speed I have not found a good way to beat mass muta with ground troops (the drg versus that protoss in gsl really long game is a great example of how its just so hard to deal with the mutas without beating him in the air) therefore this is the main reason I like this style.
I'm pretty sure that in an even game, and with even skills, there is indeed not posible to deal with the new mutas without phoenixes u.u
That's why 90+% of korean PvZ openings are Stargate.
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On April 12 2013 14:11 JSK wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 13:54 FireMonkey wrote:On April 12 2013 12:55 JSK wrote:
I was thinking about doing a 2-base zealot/sentry gateway all-in in PvT, using hallucinate from extra sentries to clear widow mines. Is this possible, or could the terran just re-target the widow mines on the different hallucinations until turrets or bunkers focused them down?
Just curious if this is a realistic possibility. widow mines auto target so the terran cannot choose what unit he wishes the widow mines to shoot, so yeah you can use hallucination to detonate widow mines, i do it before i go for a warp pirsm drop no he can definitely choose which unit for them to shoot, I'm just wondering if it's realistic that the hallucinated phoenix won't live long enough. it seems like one hallucinated unit will be killed by terran MM before the WM is set off. and if there's multiples he can switch between them and delay the missile until it doesn't fire because phoenixes are dead. i'm also not sure if widow mines will fire against detected hallucinated units. if they don't, a hallucinated immortal should do the trick until the widow mines are gone.
no, the terran cant choose what the mines target, its on auto fire. So you can always bait a zealot/probe/halluncination
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On April 12 2013 15:30 recklessfire wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 14:11 JSK wrote:On April 12 2013 13:54 FireMonkey wrote:On April 12 2013 12:55 JSK wrote:
I was thinking about doing a 2-base zealot/sentry gateway all-in in PvT, using hallucinate from extra sentries to clear widow mines. Is this possible, or could the terran just re-target the widow mines on the different hallucinations until turrets or bunkers focused them down?
Just curious if this is a realistic possibility. widow mines auto target so the terran cannot choose what unit he wishes the widow mines to shoot, so yeah you can use hallucination to detonate widow mines, i do it before i go for a warp pirsm drop no he can definitely choose which unit for them to shoot, I'm just wondering if it's realistic that the hallucinated phoenix won't live long enough. it seems like one hallucinated unit will be killed by terran MM before the WM is set off. and if there's multiples he can switch between them and delay the missile until it doesn't fire because phoenixes are dead. i'm also not sure if widow mines will fire against detected hallucinated units. if they don't, a hallucinated immortal should do the trick until the widow mines are gone. no, the terran cant choose what the mines target, its on auto fire. So you can always bait a zealot/probe/halluncination
you can click on different units to reset the widow mine's 2-second missile launch delay. this is a fact.
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On April 12 2013 14:25 ThePianoDentist wrote:erm this may notbe a totally 'viable' strat and i havent played enough protoss to work out all the transitions and stuff, but 2 base carrier seems to deal with the 2 base swarmhost thing quite nicely as carriers are pretty good versus spores and queens. you build a stargate after ffe and then build 2nd stargate and fleet beacon when that finishes. Then chrono out 2 carriers, and use this and mothership core to 'harrass' as can recall if carriers get low on health. hydras are actually not good versus carriers so long as you have good positioning and keep your carriers protected and if they go for mass muta you already have double stargate and fleat beacon for pheonix range. due to muta regen and speed I have not found a good way to beat mass muta with ground troops (the drg versus that protoss in gsl really long game is a great example of how its just so hard to deal with the mutas without beating him in the air) therefore this is the main reason I like this style. I copied the opening off of white-ra not sure if i transition the same way he does, but here is white ra doing it against 2 base swarm host http://www.twitch.tv/whitera/c/2048378 edit: rewatching white ra vod its not nydus with queens but I think the same concepts still apply, its worth trying at least
A few things:
1. White-Ra goes 2x SG carriers blindly, he has both SG's and fleet beacon down before he even knows it's a swarmhost all in.
2. The zerg also went hydras
3. The zerg had very few swarmhosts, at the most he had like 4?
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On April 12 2013 16:08 unkkz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 14:25 ThePianoDentist wrote:erm this may notbe a totally 'viable' strat and i havent played enough protoss to work out all the transitions and stuff, but 2 base carrier seems to deal with the 2 base swarmhost thing quite nicely as carriers are pretty good versus spores and queens. you build a stargate after ffe and then build 2nd stargate and fleet beacon when that finishes. Then chrono out 2 carriers, and use this and mothership core to 'harrass' as can recall if carriers get low on health. hydras are actually not good versus carriers so long as you have good positioning and keep your carriers protected and if they go for mass muta you already have double stargate and fleat beacon for pheonix range. due to muta regen and speed I have not found a good way to beat mass muta with ground troops (the drg versus that protoss in gsl really long game is a great example of how its just so hard to deal with the mutas without beating him in the air) therefore this is the main reason I like this style. I copied the opening off of white-ra not sure if i transition the same way he does, but here is white ra doing it against 2 base swarm host http://www.twitch.tv/whitera/c/2048378 edit: rewatching white ra vod its not nydus with queens but I think the same concepts still apply, its worth trying at least A few things: 1. White-Ra goes 2x SG carriers blindly, he has both SG's and fleet beacon down before he even knows it's a swarmhost all in. 2. The zerg also went hydras 3. The zerg had very few swarmhosts, at the most he had like 4?
yes I know, I never use it as a "hes going swarmhost, ill counter with this". This is an opener I use because whatever he chooses to do I am in a good position.
the zerg had to stop building swarmhosts because swarmhosts dont shoot up.
Im not saying its the best replay to demonstrate but it seems to be a strategy that from my limited protoss experience at mid-masters eu it deals well with nydus/swarmhost/queen/spore and I also find deals with any zerg openings so long as you dont get too greedy and try to take a 3rd base before getting gateway count up to 4/5. As said I havent played it enough to know all the kinks and reactions but its something worth investigating if you can't seem to win any pvz's at all
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wow haven't checked this thread in a while, but want to say the new OP is awesome! ^^
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So actually i have a question because of the swarm host problem:
1.Since WoL i always go stargate into phoenixes
2. I see the lack of his third base because of scouting (or poke after my 1 gate expand cyber)
3. With the phoenixes im safe against mutas
4. I delay him because he is forced into anti air defenses
5. He shouldnt be able to get a nydus close to your base right? Because when you know it is coming you just patrol your phoenixes around your base and kill the nydus when it goes up.
6. His swarmhost are pretty far away from your base waiting for them to move forward, then pick them up and go kill them
So i never played this build because i have much to study the last weeks but wouldnt this be a viable solution against this swarm host play?
Sorry if it has any big mistake in it im quite tired atm and writing from my phone.
I would love to hear any feedback gl hf 
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Hello, diamond EU protoss here in need on some guidance in PvZ atm
How to open the most safe and versatile vs zerg these days?
I feel i have so many BO losses.
Swarm Hosts / Hydra and Mutalisk seems like the most common openers.
But how do I play the safest way that opens up in time the tech path to deal with both
in time?
It often seems like i have to throw down my selected tech before i exactly know what is coming. And u kinda "autolose" if he choses muta vs robo now i feel, or if u open SG/Twilight vs Swarm Hosts/Hydra. I also feel very vulnerable going stargate tech to some earlier pressure than normal.
How do u play PvZ to avoid this? I almost never had BO losses in pvz in WOL, so this is really frustrating for me.
I probably feel most safe with opening robo and then twilight, but i feel he can just kill me with mutas
if he scouts it while i take my third on most maps. In WOL i could get blink and defend
pretty ok, but that is much harder now since the muta masses are normally abit larger
If this is still valid, what are the timing i need to scout for?
If someone know the most common timings for when the various timings normally hit, that might be abit helpful also.
Another thing. If i get colossus out in time for SH/Hydra pushes. How quickly should i try to kill the swarm hosts? I mean it of course it depends on his supporting unit count, but in most situations i just get drained out even if i have colossus.
It also kinda denies me from taking a 4th because of his siege pressure, i lose alot (gates, some units) for nothing while his army grows constantly. And it also buys him time to get out corruptors to overwhelm my colossus.
I feel i have to try to push out and kill the SH early enough to stand a chance, but i normally dont have 2-3 colossus when he starts the pushout.
Some scouting timings and exactly what to look for against this might be the helpful trick here
Thanks in advance 
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How should I adjust my play based on a Terran who mixes Hellbats into his MMM army in TvP?
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On April 12 2013 21:58 Salivanth wrote:
How should I adjust my play based on a Terran who mixes Hellbats into his MMM army in TvP?
This i am clueless about aswell. It's like you NEED chargelots against a terran and hellbats just evaporates them. And we all know that when you run out of zealots the rest of your stuff just dies in the blink of an eye. I cannot fathom that they actually got this unit since "terrans had issues with mass zealots" that's like buffing storm saying protoss had issues with marines.
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On April 12 2013 14:26 Belha wrote:Any high master or Gm replay out there vs the 2 base swarm host contain? Thx in advance. Oh and winning lol, I have 2, both the P losing u.u Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 14:25 ThePianoDentist wrote:
due to muta regen and speed I have not found a good way to beat mass muta with ground troops (the drg versus that protoss in gsl really long game is a great example of how its just so hard to deal with the mutas without beating him in the air) therefore this is the main reason I like this style. I'm pretty sure that in an even game, and with even skills, there is indeed not posible to deal with the new mutas without phoenixes u.u That's why 90+% of korean PvZ openings are Stargate.
you are correct, its actually quite bothersome to me- Hydra into muta is absolutely ridiculous because as the hydra attack comes to try and deny your third as tough as the push is to hold if you dont have 2 sg's pumping phoenix (in a hidden location) the spire will finish and you will die to 20 mutas. Furthermore if zerg gets wind you are making the 10+ phoenix neccesary to combat mutas they can just opt out of making the mutas entirely. ZvP is actually quite imbalanced at the moment, and broken in the sense that protoss is now 100% chained to the SG. Instead of making SG more viable they made it the only thing that is viable. (at least at the highest level of play)
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On April 12 2013 21:58 Salivanth wrote:
How should I adjust my play based on a Terran who mixes Hellbats into his MMM army in TvP?
archons are really good against them. lots of archons and try to win the high templar versus ghost war so that not too many get emp'd before you can feedback some ghosts.
problem with that is how to spend your massive mineral bank. you can still make zealots but mainly to keep harassing from proxy pylons and warp prisms in the main. you can also keep making zealots but abuse hellbats not being able to storm dodge and delay the engagement whilst storming him lots and by the time you are ready to engage his hellbats should have taken a lot of storm hits.
or you can go for a more colossi based lategame army with a good stalker count with blink to pick off vikings whilst still having templar to storm vikings that try to colossi snipe.
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Italy12246 Posts
On April 13 2013 01:19 TOdesKaMpF wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 14:26 Belha wrote:Any high master or Gm replay out there vs the 2 base swarm host contain? Thx in advance. Oh and winning lol, I have 2, both the P losing u.u On April 12 2013 14:25 ThePianoDentist wrote:
due to muta regen and speed I have not found a good way to beat mass muta with ground troops (the drg versus that protoss in gsl really long game is a great example of how its just so hard to deal with the mutas without beating him in the air) therefore this is the main reason I like this style. I'm pretty sure that in an even game, and with even skills, there is indeed not posible to deal with the new mutas without phoenixes u.u That's why 90+% of korean PvZ openings are Stargate. you are correct, its actually quite bothersome to me- Hydra into muta is absolutely ridiculous because as the hydra attack comes to try and deny your third as tough as the push is to hold if you dont have 2 sg's pumping phoenix (in a hidden location) the spire will finish and you will die to 20 mutas. Furthermore if zerg gets wind you are making the 10+ phoenix neccesary to combat mutas they can just opt out of making the mutas entirely. ZvP is actually quite imbalanced at the moment, and broken in the sense that protoss is now 100% chained to the SG. Instead of making SG more viable they made it the only thing that is viable. (at least at the highest level of play)
I wouldn't call it imbalanced - Zerg in WoL was chained to infestor and we know how that one turned out - but yeah, it's very frustrating. I guess you can scout the spire with a hallu, but i don't know wether it's even possible to tell the difference between a spire for Corruptors and one for Mutas unless you get lucky and see him producing a bunch of lings, or maybe notice he's skipping hydra range or speed.
Even not seeing a Hive is not enough because he might just be delaying Vipers for a Corruptor timing.
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I've been having quite a bit of success in PvP going for twilight against my opponent's Stargte, but I've recently encountered a few games where my opponents will go phoenix (the phoenix count differs every game, it ranges from like 5 ~ 15) with dts + observer and constantly snipe my observer. I find it really hard to keep my observer alive in big engagements vs the phoenixes because they're so fast. I've tried to spread my observers and try to snipe theirs but I can't seem to pull it off. Does anybody have tips to counter this? Should I just blanket storm their army and try to kill their observer with the storm?
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On April 13 2013 01:32 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2013 01:19 TOdesKaMpF wrote:On April 12 2013 14:26 Belha wrote:Any high master or Gm replay out there vs the 2 base swarm host contain? Thx in advance. Oh and winning lol, I have 2, both the P losing u.u On April 12 2013 14:25 ThePianoDentist wrote:
due to muta regen and speed I have not found a good way to beat mass muta with ground troops (the drg versus that protoss in gsl really long game is a great example of how its just so hard to deal with the mutas without beating him in the air) therefore this is the main reason I like this style. I'm pretty sure that in an even game, and with even skills, there is indeed not posible to deal with the new mutas without phoenixes u.u That's why 90+% of korean PvZ openings are Stargate. you are correct, its actually quite bothersome to me- Hydra into muta is absolutely ridiculous because as the hydra attack comes to try and deny your third as tough as the push is to hold if you dont have 2 sg's pumping phoenix (in a hidden location) the spire will finish and you will die to 20 mutas. Furthermore if zerg gets wind you are making the 10+ phoenix neccesary to combat mutas they can just opt out of making the mutas entirely. ZvP is actually quite imbalanced at the moment, and broken in the sense that protoss is now 100% chained to the SG. Instead of making SG more viable they made it the only thing that is viable. (at least at the highest level of play) I wouldn't call it imbalanced - Zerg in WoL was chained to infestor and we know how that one turned out - but yeah, it's very frustrating. I guess you can scout the spire with a hallu, but i don't know wether it's even possible to tell the difference between a spire for Corruptors and one for Mutas unless you get lucky and see him producing a bunch of lings, or maybe notice he's skipping hydra range or speed. Even not seeing a Hive is not enough because he might just be delaying Vipers for a Corruptor timing.
Well its tough. When i play people on ladder like Kane, or other top zergs they use the map control that comes with pushes like this to easily out expand me.
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What time is a 1-base MSC blink all in supposed to hit vs T, and when do you start the twilight (before or after adding gates 2-4)? Finding information on this build has been next to impossible.
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Italy12246 Posts
Start the twilight before adding the gates or your push will hit too late. The only reason to go 2/3gate into blink is in PvP if you know early game aggression is coming and you want to be super safe, or if you want to put on aggression yourself. In PvT you should (almost) always go 1gate -> tech or expand (depending on what you want to do ofc)
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On April 12 2013 15:42 JSK wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 15:30 recklessfire wrote:On April 12 2013 14:11 JSK wrote:On April 12 2013 13:54 FireMonkey wrote:On April 12 2013 12:55 JSK wrote:
I was thinking about doing a 2-base zealot/sentry gateway all-in in PvT, using hallucinate from extra sentries to clear widow mines. Is this possible, or could the terran just re-target the widow mines on the different hallucinations until turrets or bunkers focused them down?
Just curious if this is a realistic possibility. widow mines auto target so the terran cannot choose what unit he wishes the widow mines to shoot, so yeah you can use hallucination to detonate widow mines, i do it before i go for a warp pirsm drop no he can definitely choose which unit for them to shoot, I'm just wondering if it's realistic that the hallucinated phoenix won't live long enough. it seems like one hallucinated unit will be killed by terran MM before the WM is set off. and if there's multiples he can switch between them and delay the missile until it doesn't fire because phoenixes are dead. i'm also not sure if widow mines will fire against detected hallucinated units. if they don't, a hallucinated immortal should do the trick until the widow mines are gone. no, the terran cant choose what the mines target, its on auto fire. So you can always bait a zealot/probe/halluncination you can click on different units to reset the widow mine's 2-second missile launch delay. this is a fact.
Where is everyone getting this incorrect info about widow mines!? Yes you can manually click units to have mines target them and the "acquiring target" delay is only 1.5 seconds - not 2.
Here's all the correct info from the Terran help me thread:
TheDwf wrote:
Mines are technically time bombs. Whenever a target enters the radius of a burrowed Mine, the target is acquired, and after a 1.5 seconds delay the Mine shoots if the target is still within its range. You can manually target with Mines: during this 1.5 seconds interval, manually selecting another target in the radius of the Mine will reset the time bomb and thus the aforementioned protocol (1.5 seconds delay → is the target still in range? if yes, shoot; if no, auto-acquire another target if there is one available). If, for some reason, you need to hold fire with a Mine, you can keep switching targets and prevent the Mine from shooting until you're ready.
Mines have 5 range, but can sometimes trigger against 6-ranged targets (such as Stalkers, Marauders or Hydralisks with the range upgrade) attacking them because instead of stopping at exactly 6 range, it seems units sometimes do not decelerate properly and step a little further forward, thus entering the range of the Mine and suffering its wrath.
Mines cannot auto-acquire the same target at the same time. If one Zergling walks in the range of 5 Mines, only one of them will shoot. If one Immortal enters the range of 3 Mines at the same time, they will not fire at once but successively shoot (i. e. the first Mine will lock on it and shoot, after which the second Mine will lock on it and shoot, after which the third Mine will lock on it and shoot). You can circumvent this problem by manually targetting the desired target so Mines fire at once, but in this case Mines can overkill.
Mines need detection to acquire cloaked targets.
Mines deal splash damage to your troops, but not to your other Mines.
Mines do not trigger on Changelings.
Mines do trigger on Hallucinations unless you have detection to reveal them.
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EPT
