EPTThe HotS Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 177
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders. | ||
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Protossking
Australia103 Posts
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VayneAuthority
United States8983 Posts
On September 16 2013 11:06 Protossking wrote: umm how do u hold hellion pressures in pvt, im gm toss and i still can't for the life of me old without taking big probe damage and getting behind... try to get into a habit of blocking ramp with first 2 stalkers if you can. that way if you see hellions on their way, you can transfer probes back to main until its safe. better to not lose the probes since hellion pressure takes an eco cut obviously but yea, early factory play is really underrated in TvP. Protoss has very few ways to deal with it early besides early cannons, and just blindly doing that puts you way behind if you're wrong. | ||
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Protossking
Australia103 Posts
On September 16 2013 11:14 VayneAuthority wrote: try to get into a habit of blocking ramp with first 2 stalkers if you can. that way if you see hellions on their way, you can transfer probes back to main until its safe. better to not lose the probes since hellion pressure takes an eco cut obviously but yea, early factory play is really underrated in TvP. Protoss has very few ways to deal with it early besides early cannons, and just blindly doing that puts you way behind if you're wrong. well i dont even mean like early runbys.. more lkie the ones where they drop marines + 1 widow mine into ur main while running into ur nat with 4-6 hellions,.. even if u nexus cannon the nat the hellions do too much damage and theyre going 3cc behind it with bunkers so u cant hurt them LOL | ||
Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
It's a bitch of a build to defend, but on the bright side you can afford to lose like 8 probes and still be even because his cc is severely delayed. | ||
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Ravenoz
Germany16 Posts
in this game i even scouted him going nydus (i didnt see the infestation pit but i assumed a siege play) so i send my voidray out to deny the nydus worm. he gets it up eventually and i try to go for 2 robo colossus on 2 base with a warp prism. he eventually gets in and kills me with queen/locust. here is the replay: http://drop.sc/359641 | ||
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Archybaldie
United Kingdom818 Posts
On September 16 2013 23:07 Ravenoz wrote: How do i hold swarm host nydus siege play from a zerg when i open with 1 gate fe into stargate? in this game i even scouted him going nydus (i didnt see the infestation pit but i assumed a siege play) so i send my voidray out to deny the nydus worm. he gets it up eventually and i try to go for 2 robo colossus on 2 base with a warp prism. he eventually gets in and kills me with queen/locust. here is the replay: http://drop.sc/359641 Someone with more experience can give you better and more information. But after i watched the replay i wanted to mention a few things. The time warp on the mothership core can be used to slow down the locusts buying you time. Remember they are on a timer so just slowing them down can be enough to stop them getting in range and doing damage Additionally on that map you had the luxury of a narrow choke that would be covered by the time warp. (it looked like you had forgotten about the MSC something i also do frequently). On a similar vein to the mothership core, energy eventually recharges for free units and buildings dont. Don't be afraid to use forcefields to protect or save some units or a building to buy you time. You dont "have" to have a warp prism to zealot to harass the zerg (it just speeds things up). You had the option of Warping in at your pylon on the low ground and just going around the queen/hosts to check for a 3rd and if there was one pressure a 3rd with zealots. (you kept a reasonable mineral bank). Additionally you dont have to move out against a 2 base zerg (you hadn't seen the zerg was on 2 bases), be comfortable on equal bases vs a zerg and just keep building up. Someone else can probabaly go into specifics about what you can/should do against this with your opening in much better detail then i could, but hopefully this helps and goodluck! | ||
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.kv
United States2332 Posts
On September 16 2013 12:53 Protossking wrote: well i dont even mean like early runbys.. more lkie the ones where they drop marines + 1 widow mine into ur main while running into ur nat with 4-6 hellions,.. even if u nexus cannon the nat the hellions do too much damage and theyre going 3cc behind it with bunkers so u cant hurt them LOL 2-3 sentries at the natural with msc to block the hellions first warp in should be 3 stalkers and that should deal with the drop you will probably have to pull workers for a bit but you should be able to warp in a 2nd time pretty soon by then and that should deflect everything...if they grab a 3cc you can pressure or you can just grab a fast 3rd by pressure, you want to get a warp prism as well b/c terran will be low on units but have a lot of bunkers in front b/c they are only focused at that particular location that a warp prism in the back could/should do some damage...i prefer not to invest everything (all-in) in this pressure...i generally just continue tech and probe production with upgrades and grabbing a later 3rd or I grab a 3rd then tech depending on the situation at hand | ||
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Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
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.kv
United States2332 Posts
On September 17 2013 01:30 Teoita wrote: I disagree on the sentries at the natural, they just do not have enough dps so you can ff all you want but the hellions will kill them anyway; the terran will be ahead even without killing probes. Against that kind of build imo it's better to skip sentries entirely and rely on cannons/nexus overcharge/stalkers to defend. Since he's delaying his medivac timing in order to do that, it's fine to delay sentries anyway. unless you have some sick way of scouting this, you make those sentries preemptively in pvt and terran won't be ahead for this drop...this drop is heavily committed...that is why they invest into a 3rd cc so they can catch up economically...you just want to hold and not lose probes...you shouldn't be able to lose the sentries if you ff properly and have your mothership in the right spot if you warp in 1 stalker at the nat and 2 back with your other 3 stalkers, you should be perfectly fine | ||
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On September 16 2013 23:07 Ravenoz wrote: How do i hold swarm host nydus siege play from a zerg when i open with 1 gate fe into stargate? in this game i even scouted him going nydus (i didnt see the infestation pit but i assumed a siege play) so i send my voidray out to deny the nydus worm. he gets it up eventually and i try to go for 2 robo colossus on 2 base with a warp prism. he eventually gets in and kills me with queen/locust. here is the replay: http://drop.sc/359641 Okay, looked at it. For the most part, you have the right idea, your execution is just horrible. Just keep building your colossus count and don't lose them stupidly to queens. DO NOT run out into the midst of SH/queen with 4 colossus...you need more like 6-8 in order to instantly kill waves of locusts. Like the other poster said, be content with being 2-base vs. 2-base and just wait until you have a better army. Also, against SH contains, you build up a lot of unused minerals; I think the best way to use this is to fortify your natural with cannon walls. This will not only increase the survivability of your natural, but will also kill off the locusts a little more quickly (I'm talking like 12+ cannons). Alternatively, you can also open void ray into 3 stargate void ray if you spot a 2-base SH contain. You get ~8 void rays + an oracle (for detection) and push out of your base. Often times you'll completely kill off all the queens/spores/SH and you can just a-move to the zerg's base with zealot/void ray for the win. I generally go up to 7-8 gates after I start to get a critical mass of void rays. Works like a charm. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
On September 17 2013 01:34 .kv wrote: unless you have some sick way of scouting this, you make those sentries preemptively in pvt and terran won't be ahead for this drop...this drop is heavily committed...that is why they invest into a 3rd cc so they can catch up economically...you just want to hold and not lose probes...you shouldn't be able to lose the sentries if you ff properly and have your mothership in the right spot if you warp in 1 stalker at the nat and 2 back with your other 3 stalkers, you should be perfectly fine Dunno i just make 3 stalkers vs any gas openings. It's probably overly safe, but i think it's more reliable than using sentries. Then again, i always go forge before extra gates, so maybe with 3gates before forge it's an easier hold. | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On September 17 2013 01:34 .kv wrote: unless you have some sick way of scouting this, you make those sentries preemptively in pvt and terran won't be ahead for this drop...this drop is heavily committed...that is why they invest into a 3rd cc so they can catch up economically...you just want to hold and not lose probes...you shouldn't be able to lose the sentries if you ff properly and have your mothership in the right spot if you warp in 1 stalker at the nat and 2 back with your other 3 stalkers, you should be perfectly fine After talking about this extensively with other people, I'm fairly certain these are just stylistic differences. I personally prefer the sentry defense, but I think both are viable. Just saying. | ||
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.kv
United States2332 Posts
On September 17 2013 01:34 .kv wrote: unless you have some sick way of scouting this, you make those sentries preemptively in pvt and terran won't be ahead for this drop...this drop is heavily committed...that is why they invest into a 3rd cc so they can catch up economically...you just want to hold and not lose probes...you shouldn't be able to lose the sentries if you ff properly and have your mothership in the right spot if you warp in 1 stalker at the nat and 2 back with your other 3 stalkers, you should be perfectly fine here is a recent game against the hellion runby with medivac drop http://www.mediafire.com/?63u72fc8h6avsee now the game didn't go as planned...he went for 12 rax 12 gas which generally is a reaper but instead he goes marine into factory so his drop hit a lot faster than I anticipated though I scouted the timing of the gas...it never ran through my head for some reason xD but ideally you would have the 3 stalkers already and you chronoboost the warpgates to have a 2nd warp in faster...I fortunately didn't have to chronoboost it b/c he ran away I still hold though with a 36 probe to 24 scv lead | ||
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
That doesn't seem very reliable though, because the zerg player could immediately start mining gas after shooing off my probe. If they go pool before gas instead, they don't even need to stop mining gas to hide intel. Do zerg players that go hatch gas pool just for speed always take their third at 6:00 or is this only the case against gateway expand? Because if I spot a third at 6:00, I will have already commited to an early sentry + second cannon, which messes up my build. I've been doing this build almost exclusively and I'd rather not make huge changes to any of it. I'm afraid I'll end up overcommiting to defense and die to a roach hydra push later. | ||
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
On September 16 2013 12:53 Protossking wrote: well i dont even mean like early runbys.. more lkie the ones where they drop marines + 1 widow mine into ur main while running into ur nat with 4-6 hellions,.. even if u nexus cannon the nat the hellions do too much damage and theyre going 3cc behind it with bunkers so u cant hurt them LOL It depends on the terran's timing and stuff (gas first or barracks first are quite different). I like to keep my msc just in range of my main for photon overcharge, while the rest of my units defend my natural. As previously mentioned, blocking your ramp with stalkers is also a good idea. As long as you don't get your robo later than 5:00 and your opponent went barracks first, you should be able to send your first observer to scout, second to your natural's mineral line, and third to your main's mineral line. I haven't really made up my mind what units to get early on. I generally get 1-3 stalker/zealot + 1 sentry. With this kind of army, if they go barracks first, you should be able to deal with hellions just fine if you warp in 2 more units. Sometimes I get 3 sentries early on, but I think that's not that good for base defense at all. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
6:00 is generally the most standard timing to take a third off most fast speed builds regardless of the protoss build. If you have problems scouting against speedling openings, that's covered in the pvz wol guide. | ||
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
On September 17 2013 03:32 Teoita wrote: Assuming you are going ffe and that you mean 14/14, there's really no good reason for the Z to do that so i would be super defensive. If you get a sentry and second cannon and he takes a third you are completely fine anyway, your stargate will be slightly slower but it's no big deal. Getting fast-ish speed off hatch first against ffe is actually kind of fine, he can afford it thanks to the econ boost of 15 hatch compared to 15 pool. Idra used to do that quite a lot. 6:00 is generally the most standard timing to take a third off most fast speed builds regardless of the protoss build. If you have problems scouting against speedling openings, that's covered in the pvz wol guide. I don't have problems with speedlings per se. I don't mind investing in extra defense against a 14/14 build. It's the other stuff zerg can do with the early gas that makes me second guess my build. It's trickier to know whether I need a second cannon + early sentry against 15 hatch + gas, because as you said "It's actually kind of fine [to get fast speed with this build]". The zerg can easily follow up with a standard macro style... but he can also do an all-in, right? I don't really know what the optimal response is. It feels like delaying tech for a cannon + a sentry is fairly costly. Take sOs vs Soulkey on whirlwind for example: Soulkey grabs an early gas (most likely for safety), sOs doesn't see a third, but completely disregards it and sticks to his build. He obviously knows Soulkey better than anyone, but against any other player this would be considered a gamble, woudn't it? (I can't recall the last time someone got an early sentry + a second cannon at pro level in response to 15 hatch --> gas --> pool) | ||
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Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
I mean, it's a reasonable build anyway. Any bust would have come before the void ray was even done anyway, and sos has a mothership core, phoenix and the first void ray out scouting around while he takes his third. Soulkey couldn't punish that build reactively either, by the time he's made enough lings there'll be nexus cannon+simcitied photon cannon+more voids. | ||
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ApocAlypsE007
Israel1007 Posts
I'm returning to Protoss after I spent all my HotS days as Zerg. Is Nexus 1st viable in any form in PvT? If not what is the fastest Nexus I can get away with? | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On September 24 2013 00:06 ApocAlypsE007 wrote: Hi. I'm returning to Protoss after I spent all my HotS days as Zerg. Is Nexus 1st viable in any form in PvT? If not what is the fastest Nexus I can get away with? Nexus first is kind of an outdated build, as a MsC will get you a comparatively early expansion while being almost completely safe from anything terran can throw at you (including proxy 11/11 raxes). Build order is as follows: 9 pylon (chronoboost x4 on nexus) 13 gate 15 double gas (2 in each gas) 17 pylon 18 core 21 zealot (cancel if no ebay block) 21 nexus 23 MSC 23 warpgate 25 stalker 25 pylon After this, you can get robo + 2 additional gateways (or an early forge). This is widely regarded as the most common and economic way to expand in this matchup. Hope this helps! | ||
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