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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On September 10 2013 05:52 LeafBlower wrote: awesome! you saved me some time as I was going to test it out later today :D It's better to pull a few probes early and be on the safe side: if lings come in you'll need to stop hitting the hatch with the zealots, and they can be used to buy time. | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On September 10 2013 08:57 Whitewing wrote: It's better to pull a few probes early and be on the safe side: if lings come in you'll need to stop hitting the hatch with the zealots, and they can be used to buy time. It really depends what the zerg is opening, where the hatch is placed and when it's placed. Assuming my math is right, and assuming you're scouting, if he does send lings, you can just pull 4 more probes per zealot you have to take off to make sure the hatch is cancelled. It cuts it close yeah, but you're better off taking the income hit later than sooner. | ||
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On September 10 2013 09:56 rd wrote: It really depends what the zerg is opening, where the hatch is placed and when it's placed. Assuming my math is right, and assuming you're scouting, if he does send lings, you can just pull 4 more probes per zealot you have to take off to make sure the hatch is cancelled. It cuts it close yeah, but you're better off taking the income hit later than sooner. Greedy and risky, will probably work out some of the times, but the issue is that the zerg sacrificed a lot of his early game to do this block, you're better off being safe and killing it sooner by pulling early (and forcing the cancel sooner or the kill sooner so you get your nexus faster) rather than risking having to pull back from lings because 8 lings run in and attack, and you wind up dancing around and you don't get the hatch kill, or get it late. I agree with Teoita, you should chrono the zealot and pull 4 probes right when it goes down. | ||
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VayneAuthority
United States8983 Posts
I'm having fun on europe server offracing as terran and hold a 100% winrate in tvp at high diamond now from just doing 1-1-1 with no cutting into a 3-1-1 that has about 7 banshees/7 tanks and a handful of marauder/marines in the timing. What would you do vs this? just want to know what to look out for  | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On September 10 2013 10:44 VayneAuthority wrote: what is the counter to a macro orientated 1-1-1? I'm having fun on europe server offracing as terran and hold a 100% winrate in tvp at high diamond now from just doing 1-1-1 with no cutting into a 3-1-1 that has about 7 banshees/7 tanks and a handful of marauder/marines in the timing. What would you do vs this? just want to know what to look out for To be honest, if protoss opens up stargate, you're just royally screwed. However, since that's less common, the general response is immortal/templar/chargelot. Templar feedback the banshees and, morph into archons. Immortal/archon/chargelot can clean up the marine/tank, especially if you can get a flank or a warp prism in on the action. I can't tell if you're talking about a 1-base all-in or a 1-1-1 into expand into a 2-base all-in though.... | ||
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bertu
Brazil871 Posts
On September 10 2013 10:44 VayneAuthority wrote: what is the counter to a macro orientated 1-1-1? I'm having fun on europe server offracing as terran and hold a 100% winrate in tvp at high diamond now from just doing 1-1-1 with no cutting into a 3-1-1 that has about 7 banshees/7 tanks and a handful of marauder/marines in the timing. What would you do vs this? just want to know what to look out for Immortal and storm would probably work just fine against a base push like this without ghosts (with stalker warp-in after the fight to pick remaining banshees). based on Rain x Bomber WCS KR season 2 semifinals game 2 (it was hellbat and tanks, but the timing for P to get the composition should be similar, as well as its effectiveness). It was also the common reaction against the jjakji build in wol (it was similar to what you described, but with thors instead of more tanks). | ||
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VayneAuthority
United States8983 Posts
On September 10 2013 11:20 SC2John wrote: To be honest, if protoss opens up stargate, you're just royally screwed. However, since that's less common, the general response is immortal/templar/chargelot. Templar feedback the banshees and, morph into archons. Immortal/archon/chargelot can clean up the marine/tank, especially if you can get a flank or a warp prism in on the action. I can't tell if you're talking about a 1-base all-in or a 1-1-1 into expand into a 2-base all-in though.... yea phoenix is really uncommon in PvT but yea that would obviously destroy this build oracle is no problem since you open with engy bay anyway for the fast +1 weapons and im talking about both actually, except without the word all-in. there's really nothing all in about it due to the mechanics of tech lab/reactor. You can just play standard after with only 100/100 resources dumped into unnecessary tech. normal 1-1-1 without all-in, into 3-1-1 2 base push into whatever | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On September 10 2013 10:38 Whitewing wrote: Greedy and risky, will probably work out some of the times, but the issue is that the zerg sacrificed a lot of his early game to do this block, you're better off being safe and killing it sooner by pulling early (and forcing the cancel sooner or the kill sooner so you get your nexus faster) rather than risking having to pull back from lings because 8 lings run in and attack, and you wind up dancing around and you don't get the hatch kill, or get it late. I agree with Teotia, you should chrono the zealot and pull 4 probes right when it goes down. Which is why the tidbit about scouting was mentioned: you should know if the zerg is making 8 lings or not. | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
2) Define "macro oriented 111". I assume you mean the 2base version, in which case yeah templar/chargelot/immortal just shits on it, but you can hold with colo too. If it's a 111 into expand type thing, just hold off his harassment (banshees are TERRIBAD in pvt now) and play a normal macro game from ahead, or if you feel like it you can even do a delayed immortal bust in case his banshees don't pay off. If he has tanks, add a warp prism and drop zealots on top of them. I mean, 7 banshees and tanks are an INSANE investment that NEED to pay off. He's delaying his medivac count, stim, upgrades, extra rax etc HEAVILY in order to get them, which is why people usually do 2base timings with them. In a longer game they are both just wasted resources. | ||
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Xaeldaren
Ireland588 Posts
It was a weird series of counters. He was going for three fast hatches so I could cannon him, but because he suspected gateway expand he went really fast speed too, so he had a natural all-in followup. | ||
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jcroisdale
United States1543 Posts
On September 11 2013 09:51 Xaeldaren wrote: What's the best follow up to a cannon rush? I played against a practice partner who thought I was going gateway expand, so I cannon'd his natural, killed it, caused him to cancel his third and thought I was going to win. He followed up with mass speedlings and banelings, and my natural wasn't walled, with only a gateway and a cannon. Even with a cannon in my main I got demolished. How would I avoid something like that? It was a weird series of counters. He was going for three fast hatches so I could cannon him, but because he suspected gateway expand he went really fast speed too, so he had a natural all-in followup. You are going to want to build the forge on the low ground as part of the wall in. If not you will find yourself being over run by lings. Then try a going into SG -> voids. Voids are good for the common all-ins that the zerg might do after being cannon rushed. Just lookout out for nydus. | ||
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Xaeldaren
Ireland588 Posts
On September 11 2013 10:03 jcroisdale wrote: You are going to want to build the forge on the low ground as part of the wall in. If not you will find yourself being over run by lings. Then try a going into SG -> voids. Voids are good for the common all-ins that the zerg might do after being cannon rushed. Just lookout out for nydus. I built it in my main behind the mineral line for extra security and to give no indication that I wasn't gate expanding. There's absolutely no way I had time for a Stargate to go up. I didn't even have my gases at this point it was so early. | ||
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jcroisdale
United States1543 Posts
On September 11 2013 10:04 Xaeldaren wrote: I built it in my main behind the mineral line for extra security and to give no indication that I wasn't gate expanding. There's absolutely no way I had time for a Stargate to go up. I didn't even have my gases at this point it was so early. Ya the problem with building it in your main, and then cannoning the zerg is the lack of minerals needed for Nexus/Cannon/PYlon/2-3gates for wall in. Even when containing the zerg to 1base its still hard to secure the natural when the forge is in your main. From what I've seen of weedamins (king cannon rusher) he always builds it on the low ground. | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On September 11 2013 10:32 jcroisdale wrote: Ya the problem with building it in your main, and then cannoning the zerg is the lack of minerals needed for Nexus/Cannon/PYlon/2-3gates for wall in. Even when containing the zerg to 1base its still hard to secure the natural when the forge is in your main. From what I've seen of weedamins (king cannon rusher) he always builds it on the low ground. Or you can build it at the main ramp and use a gateway + zealot revolving door. The other part of this is primarily that you need to not overinvest in cannoning the natural and make sure you scout the early gas. Whenever sOs cannon rushes, he only builds 2 cannons max and always cancels any unnecessary pylons/cannons once the initial cannons get up. If you do this, you should have enough minerals to wall off your natural or at least your main ramp. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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Nyrr
Netherlands36 Posts
The things I am wondering about are as following. We assume that I've succesfully expanded on 1gate, and currently have an infrastructure of 3 gates, robo and a forge. - What kind of infrastructure should I be aiming for next in what order, if I want to play Chargelot/Immortal/Archon and I have identified that my opponent is not all-inning? - How should I be scouting out two base all ins? Like, what are tell tale signs? - Upon scouting a two base all in, what is the correct response to the following? One is that my opponent goes for a Colossus timing and the other is just mass gateway/immortal (think mass stalker immortal). Thank you kindly for your time. | ||
Olli
Austria24417 Posts
With the 3 gates, robo, forge setup you'd want to add on a twilight council next while you keep building mostly zealots and if needed, immortals. That's not very gas heavy at all and will allow you to tech very quickly straight to templar archives. You can play it out like a PvT from there, 2 more gates after twilight council, two more gates after charge research or charge first, then 4 gateways. Not exactly sure which to do when. The important part is not to stop immortal production for too long or you will be weaker to a colossus timing, if your opponent has chosen the colossus route. Keep sending hallucinations after each step you take, a good opponent will do the same. PvP is a lot about reacting to the information you gather with hallucinations and mindgaming/cutting corners according to your opponent's reaction. A quick example - if your opponent takes a third before adding additional gateways you can choose to either cut gateways yourself and expand or throw them down and hit a timing to punish him. You might build a warp prism to exploit his later gateways, meaning that he'll have a harder time defending in multiple places. Basically it's all about knowing the standard for PvP, recognizing how your opponent deviates from it, interpreting what that means and reacting to it. That's basically how to play a reactive style across all matchups for every race. | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On September 11 2013 18:05 Nyrr wrote: I have a lot of problems in PvP, especially two-base all ins. I think this is mainly due to me not understanding the current metagame as much. The things I am wondering about are as following. We assume that I've succesfully expanded on 1gate, and currently have an infrastructure of 3 gates, robo and a forge. - What kind of infrastructure should I be aiming for next in what order, if I want to play Chargelot/Immortal/Archon and I have identified that my opponent is not all-inning? - How should I be scouting out two base all ins? Like, what are tell tale signs? - Upon scouting a two base all in, what is the correct response to the following? One is that my opponent goes for a Colossus timing and the other is just mass gateway/immortal (think mass stalker immortal). Thank you kindly for your time. The macro route: After you expand and are stabilized against any pressure, you want to start +1 attack and get a twilight council + natural gases while only chronoboosting probes. DO NOT continue to build immortals, as this will slow down your teching considerably and put you behind. Once you have full 2-base saturation, a templar archives, and +1 attack and charge researching, you'll have excess minerals which you can spend on extra gateways (+3-5 extra gateways depending on how aggressive you want to be). You should start adding on immortals AFTER additional gateways. The primary sign of a 2-base all-in is early additional gateways (~8:00-9:00 considering no pressure early on). Generally most 2-base all-ins are colossus pushes (with ~4 colossus) and 2-base chargelot/archon/stalker pushes. Against colossus all-ins, just engage on open ground with a zealot flank (or a warp prism dropping on the colossus). Against zealot/archon all-ins, just wall off your natural with gateways and laugh because your composition will be stronger. Mass immortal all-ins are less common, but you can hold those easily with good forcefields and nexus cannon. If you scout early additional gateway and suspect a 2-base all-in, you should go ahead and start immortal production a little earlier and add fewer gateways (maximum of 6). If you do the standard macro opening, you should be able to punish a greedy 3rd with a midgame timing while taking a 3rd behind it. With Immortal/archon/chargelot, I do not recommend that you cut gateways to get an earlier 3rd. You will either die to an immortal/archon/chargelot attack or you'll be wasting an opportunity to pressure your opponent. (There are some people who stylistically like to rush to 3-4 bases and protoss lategame, but I don't think it's good lol). Anyway, hope this helps! If you have any further questions, just let me know! | ||
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Nyrr
Netherlands36 Posts
Hopefully I'll be able to push my winrate over 50% now. Thanks again! | ||
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Salient
United States876 Posts
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