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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders. | ||
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bertu
Brazil871 Posts
I keep on making phoenixes and use them to defend, but I am not sure if i should add a 3rd gate or a robo. Robo is obviously better in the long term but it feels like it can be punished during a short window. If you guys are confident in holding with robo, I will keep giving it a try. : ) Low masters btw. | ||
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
On September 05 2013 12:29 bertu wrote: PvP. You are going for a 2-gate, stargate phoenix build (like Nony used to do in his stream). You scout that your opponent is going for 3-gate Blink. What is the optimal reaction? I keep on making phoenixes and use them to defend, but I am not sure if i should add a 3rd gate or a robo. Robo is obviously better in the long term but it feels like it can be punished during a short window. If you guys are confident in holding with robo, I will keep giving it a try. : ) Low masters btw. I guess this really depends on when you actually start your robo and what units you have to defend earlier. If you can prevent your opponent from going up your ramp with force fields + a few units for a while, maybe keep him from going up your ramp until he has blink, you can probably hold off the blink push much more easily. You can control your ramp, then buy time with photon overcharge, and doing these 2 things well may buy you enough time to get an immortal out or something. I don't understand much about phoenix openings to be honest, but is it actually necessary to use your phoenixes defensively for the whole time? I dare say good ramp control and photon overcharge may actually be enough to allow for picking off some probes and forcing your opponent to warp in stalkers at home, which would make his blink push weaker. An oracle can also accomplish the same thing. Having to warp in 2 stalkers at home to fend off oracle harassment is pretty annoying, and with the aid of a proxy pylon, you can send 2-3 zealots to hit the stalkers and allow your oracle to do damage anyway. | ||
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nath
United States1788 Posts
On September 05 2013 05:56 DinoMight wrote: Don't do that. 13Gate, 15 double Gas, 16Pylon, 17Cyber is how I roll. Only chrono Nexus the whole time (you have to cut for a second at 16 to get the pylon down so don't chrono on 16). More effective and allows you to get a zealot/stalker, and msc asap if you don't scout or a stalker/MsC if you do (100 minerals difference from lost mining time). I use this vs all three races (except when I FFE vs. Zerg). Vs. P I usually add a second gate and Stargate then expand but it's up to you. Vs. T I usually make a nexus and then immediately robo and forge for upgrades. That is as standard as it gets right now. Vs. Z I FFE because it's safer. If you move outwith your first 2z and 1 stalker you sometimes can do damage but keep in mind you're extremely vulnderable to a speedling allin (for which you'll need those units at home to defend) what is your goto stargate build for PvP? i find that usually getting the sg then the 2nd gate slightly later works out the best, you noted it as if they were at the same time (or even 2nd gate first)? is that safer? | ||
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bertu
Brazil871 Posts
To address some of the points: the earliest you can reliably scout blink is when the first phoenix get to his base, which means the second phoenix is close to done. This would also be the earliest time to build a reactive robo or 3rd gate. I don't build any sentries against blink, nor does Nony as far as I remember. Delaying his push up the ramp before blink is not worth the gas investment. In wol it was viable to build 5 sentries, hold the ramp forever, use phoenix to harass and get a robo. Now he can scort his MSC to your natural and get high ground vision. I am pretty sure the phoenix are needed for defense, otherwise you get overrun by units. Not even a photon overcharge would be enough to overcome ~1000 resources difference in a fight that early in the game. I am confident in surviving with phoenixes, MSC and a 3rd gate against blink (if he keeps trying to bust me). I am not sure if it is optimal though, since this situation leads to him containing me after he gets a good number of stalker. I want to know if I can be punished too hard when trying to defend with an early robo. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On September 05 2013 12:29 bertu wrote: PvP. You are going for a 2-gate, stargate phoenix build (like Nony used to do in his stream). You scout that your opponent is going for 3-gate Blink. What is the optimal reaction? I keep on making phoenixes and use them to defend, but I am not sure if i should add a 3rd gate or a robo. Robo is obviously better in the long term but it feels like it can be punished during a short window. If you guys are confident in holding with robo, I will keep giving it a try. : ) Low masters btw. This happened to me just the other day actually. What I did is cancel Phoenix production and get a couple of Void rays while I made a Robo. use FF to keep him out as long as possible and then photon overcharge. Once the Robo is done chrono immortals as much as possible and forgo Void Production if you have to. It's def. holdable, just need to control well. | ||
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
On September 05 2013 14:00 bertu wrote: I appreciate the effort in your response, but I'd like to hear from someone with experience with the build and/or pro level examples. To address some of the points: the earliest you can reliably scout blink is when the first phoenix get to his base, which means the second phoenix is close to done. This would also be the earliest time to build a reactive robo or 3rd gate. I don't build any sentries against blink, nor does Nony as far as I remember. Delaying his push up the ramp before blink is not worth the gas investment. In wol it was viable to build 5 sentries, hold the ramp forever, use phoenix to harass and get a robo. Now he can scort his MSC to your natural and get high ground vision. I am pretty sure the phoenix are needed for defense, otherwise you get overrun by units. Not even a photon overcharge would be enough to overcome ~1000 resources difference in a fight that early in the game. I am confident in surviving with phoenixes, MSC and a 3rd gate against blink (if he keeps trying to bust me). I am not sure if it is optimal though, since this situation leads to him containing me after he gets a good number of stalker. I want to know if I can be punished too hard when trying to defend with an early robo. You could upload a replay. I honestly have no idea what Nony does, how many gateway units he gets early on, how many chronos he spends on the core, how early he starts his stargate, etc. There is no way to know how much time you can buy to get immortals out or whatever without taking a look at your build. | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
Just make sure you confirm blink and no dt's (for instance, by couting stalkers, 5+stalkers usually means blink). I'm not sure about immortals, i feel like you have to get a quick robo blind (which is certainly viable of course) and if you do it reactively it'll be too late. | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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VayneAuthority
United States8983 Posts
you need good forcefields pretty much, and nexus cannon | ||
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a176
Canada6688 Posts
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
What if I did a 1gate expand -> robo? Same thing, simcity and mostly stalker based? | ||
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Kinon
Romania207 Posts
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On September 08 2013 03:06 DarkLordOlli wrote: I try not to have more than 1 sentry since forcefields are basically useless against archons. Typically I'll pump zealot/stalker. What if I did a 1gate expand -> robo? Same thing, simcity and mostly stalker based? Yeah pretty much. You might have to abandon the nexus vs the fastest timings; i'm not sure because i prefer the macro-oriented dt builds. On September 08 2013 03:04 a176 wrote: how do i carrier vs terran? Don't, carriers are trash in all matchups sadly. Unless for some bizarre reason he's meching, but even then immortals are better. On September 08 2013 03:07 Kinon wrote: I saw this blog a while ago, about 2 gate FE in PvP and I was wondering if anyone here is familiar with it. Should I use it as my ladder PvP build? Blink all-ins seem to hard for me to pull off. Most fast expand builds are reasonably safe vs blink. Stargate is what really gives them trouble. If you wanna try it yeah go for it, it's a pretty solid build. | ||
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
On September 08 2013 03:07 Kinon wrote: I saw this blog a while ago, about 2 gate FE in PvP and I was wondering if anyone here is familiar with it. Should I use it as my ladder PvP build? Blink all-ins seem to hard for me to pull off. It's a good build. What I dislike, howerver, is the fact that you get your nexus relative late compared to a tight 1 gate expand build. I do the pretty much the same 1 gate FE as Naniwa (except I go sentry into stalker and Naniwa does it the other way around). I get my nexus at about 4:30, and I already find it very annoying when I see my opponents expand at like 4:00ish and cut a lot of corners while not even realizing how vulnerable they are. With this 2 gate expand build, you get your nexus at 5:30, which is much later than what I already do. You also get a later robo. You have the option of canceling your nexus upon scouting stuff like a stargate gateway all in or whatever, and it keeps your opponent a bit more in the dark because your nexus is delayed, but aside from these things I haven't seen any reasons to pick it over a 1 gate FE. When I go blink against this build, I also find it easier to just force a cancel and contain my opponent with a sentry afterwards. As for the "window of time" you supposedly have against an earlier nexus, I haven't had any issues holding off this kind of pressure, and I thought it was kind of silly of Rain to go for a push in the game he played. So it may well be a double-edged sword... perhaps safer against stargate if you play very conservatively, but likely more vulnerable to have your nexus canceled and getting contained by someone going blink. | ||
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
(accidentally quoted my previous post, so now it's 2 posts lol) | ||
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Vlade
United States14 Posts
The Build: 1 Gate FE > +3 Gates > Proxy Zealots w/MSC > Stargate/Robo Been away from the game for about 3 months, was previously owning Zerg with this build, does it still work? | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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