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The HotS Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 173

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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders.
bertu
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
Brazil871 Posts
September 05 2013 03:29 GMT
#3441
PvP. You are going for a 2-gate, stargate phoenix build (like Nony used to do in his stream). You scout that your opponent is going for 3-gate Blink. What is the optimal reaction?

I keep on making phoenixes and use them to defend, but I am not sure if i should add a 3rd gate or a robo.

Robo is obviously better in the long term but it feels like it can be punished during a short window. If you guys are confident in holding with robo, I will keep giving it a try. : )

Low masters btw.
SEKO SEKO SEKO
vhapter
Profile Joined May 2010
Brazil677 Posts
September 05 2013 04:26 GMT
#3442
On September 05 2013 12:29 bertu wrote:
PvP. You are going for a 2-gate, stargate phoenix build (like Nony used to do in his stream). You scout that your opponent is going for 3-gate Blink. What is the optimal reaction?

I keep on making phoenixes and use them to defend, but I am not sure if i should add a 3rd gate or a robo.

Robo is obviously better in the long term but it feels like it can be punished during a short window. If you guys are confident in holding with robo, I will keep giving it a try. : )

Low masters btw.

I guess this really depends on when you actually start your robo and what units you have to defend earlier. If you can prevent your opponent from going up your ramp with force fields + a few units for a while, maybe keep him from going up your ramp until he has blink, you can probably hold off the blink push much more easily. You can control your ramp, then buy time with photon overcharge, and doing these 2 things well may buy you enough time to get an immortal out or something.

I don't understand much about phoenix openings to be honest, but is it actually necessary to use your phoenixes defensively for the whole time? I dare say good ramp control and photon overcharge may actually be enough to allow for picking off some probes and forcing your opponent to warp in stalkers at home, which would make his blink push weaker. An oracle can also accomplish the same thing. Having to warp in 2 stalkers at home to fend off oracle harassment is pretty annoying, and with the aid of a proxy pylon, you can send 2-3 zealots to hit the stalkers and allow your oracle to do damage anyway.
To live is to fight, to fight is to live!
nath
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1788 Posts
September 05 2013 04:47 GMT
#3443
On September 05 2013 05:56 DinoMight wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 05 2013 05:25 nath wrote:
Hey guys. getting back into the game, i am using a rather dated opening and im wondering if its unsafe vs anything in hots (so far it seems like really fast gas / proxy fact from terran might be a big weakness for it, but i also probably just got caught off guard and didnt react appropriately).

I'm going 13g 14p 15g 16g (2 in each), 21p 22core.
in PvP i can continue into a 2 gate (2z 3s) that is very flexible and i know how to play that out well. im doing great in PvP with this being able to transition into allin, tech, or expand.
in PvT i think i definitely need to change this and not just because of proxy fact's coming really quick - since core is slightly delayed, even though you get a ton of gas the robo is just a bit late for fast widow mines. however, the opening is meant for 2z 1s, and in pvt this is rather useless unless the player is greedy or bad, or allining. what i do is get 1 zealot only, have gateway not being used for a bit, get nexus and then chrono stalkers from 1 gate + MsC to poke or for defense. i add a gateway, robo, and forge and go into 1 collo -> HT and take a relatively late third, adding gates 2 or 3 at a time.
in PvZ i poke with 2z 1s while building nexus, and go robo/forge into either immortal allin or 3rd nexus off 2 gas, 3 immortals, and 7 gates. this is also working well for me.

what should i change about my opener for PvT? and what do you guys do in general to practice mechanics only? thanks.


Don't do that.

13Gate, 15 double Gas, 16Pylon, 17Cyber is how I roll. Only chrono Nexus the whole time (you have to cut for a second at 16 to get the pylon down so don't chrono on 16). More effective and allows you to get a zealot/stalker, and msc asap if you don't scout or a stalker/MsC if you do (100 minerals difference from lost mining time). I use this vs all three races (except when I FFE vs. Zerg).

Vs. P I usually add a second gate and Stargate then expand but it's up to you.

Vs. T I usually make a nexus and then immediately robo and forge for upgrades. That is as standard as it gets right now.

Vs. Z I FFE because it's safer. If you move outwith your first 2z and 1 stalker you sometimes can do damage but keep in mind you're extremely vulnderable to a speedling allin (for which you'll need those units at home to defend)

what is your goto stargate build for PvP? i find that usually getting the sg then the 2nd gate slightly later works out the best, you noted it as if they were at the same time (or even 2nd gate first)? is that safer?
Founder of Flow Enterprises, LLC http://flow-enterprises.com/
bertu
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
Brazil871 Posts
September 05 2013 05:00 GMT
#3444
I appreciate the effort in your response, but I'd like to hear from someone with experience with the build and/or pro level examples.

To address some of the points: the earliest you can reliably scout blink is when the first phoenix get to his base, which means the second phoenix is close to done. This would also be the earliest time to build a reactive robo or 3rd gate.

I don't build any sentries against blink, nor does Nony as far as I remember. Delaying his push up the ramp before blink is not worth the gas investment. In wol it was viable to build 5 sentries, hold the ramp forever, use phoenix to harass and get a robo. Now he can scort his MSC to your natural and get high ground vision.

I am pretty sure the phoenix are needed for defense, otherwise you get overrun by units. Not even a photon overcharge would be enough to overcome ~1000 resources difference in a fight that early in the game.

I am confident in surviving with phoenixes, MSC and a 3rd gate against blink (if he keeps trying to bust me). I am not sure if it is optimal though, since this situation leads to him containing me after he gets a good number of stalker. I want to know if I can be punished too hard when trying to defend with an early robo.
SEKO SEKO SEKO
DinoMight
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States3725 Posts
September 05 2013 05:06 GMT
#3445
On September 05 2013 12:29 bertu wrote:
PvP. You are going for a 2-gate, stargate phoenix build (like Nony used to do in his stream). You scout that your opponent is going for 3-gate Blink. What is the optimal reaction?

I keep on making phoenixes and use them to defend, but I am not sure if i should add a 3rd gate or a robo.

Robo is obviously better in the long term but it feels like it can be punished during a short window. If you guys are confident in holding with robo, I will keep giving it a try. : )

Low masters btw.



This happened to me just the other day actually. What I did is cancel Phoenix production and get a couple of Void rays while I made a Robo. use FF to keep him out as long as possible and then photon overcharge. Once the Robo is done chrono immortals as much as possible and forgo Void Production if you have to. It's def. holdable, just need to control well.
"Wtf I come back and find myself in camp DinoMight all of a sudden, feels weird man." -Wombat_NI
vhapter
Profile Joined May 2010
Brazil677 Posts
September 05 2013 05:43 GMT
#3446
On September 05 2013 14:00 bertu wrote:
I appreciate the effort in your response, but I'd like to hear from someone with experience with the build and/or pro level examples.

To address some of the points: the earliest you can reliably scout blink is when the first phoenix get to his base, which means the second phoenix is close to done. This would also be the earliest time to build a reactive robo or 3rd gate.

I don't build any sentries against blink, nor does Nony as far as I remember. Delaying his push up the ramp before blink is not worth the gas investment. In wol it was viable to build 5 sentries, hold the ramp forever, use phoenix to harass and get a robo. Now he can scort his MSC to your natural and get high ground vision.

I am pretty sure the phoenix are needed for defense, otherwise you get overrun by units. Not even a photon overcharge would be enough to overcome ~1000 resources difference in a fight that early in the game.

I am confident in surviving with phoenixes, MSC and a 3rd gate against blink (if he keeps trying to bust me). I am not sure if it is optimal though, since this situation leads to him containing me after he gets a good number of stalker. I want to know if I can be punished too hard when trying to defend with an early robo.


You could upload a replay. I honestly have no idea what Nony does, how many gateway units he gets early on, how many chronos he spends on the core, how early he starts his stargate, etc. There is no way to know how much time you can buy to get immortals out or whatever without taking a look at your build.
To live is to fight, to fight is to live!
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-05 12:15:44
September 05 2013 12:14 GMT
#3447
I think the best response to blink with a generic stargate build is to go void rays. An example of a good hold is Parting vs Swagger on Polar Night; it was an oracle opener but the concept remains the same.

Just make sure you confirm blink and no dt's (for instance, by couting stalkers, 5+stalkers usually means blink).

I'm not sure about immortals, i feel like you have to get a quick robo blind (which is certainly viable of course) and if you do it reactively it'll be too late.
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
Sated
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
England4983 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-06 21:13:23
September 05 2013 16:33 GMT
#3448
--- Nuked ---
Olli
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
Austria24417 Posts
September 07 2013 17:08 GMT
#3449
So I've been having this issue since early WoL. How the hell do I defend a straight up 1base charge/archon all in in PvP? So many times I've found myself deflecting DT builds without taking damage and then get steamrolled easily by the followup all in even if I constantly produce units.
Administrator"Declaring anything a disaster because aLive popped up out of nowhere is just downright silly."
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
September 07 2013 17:09 GMT
#3450
Wall your ramp when you scout it or use some other kind of simcity close to your nexus.
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
VayneAuthority
Profile Joined October 2012
United States8983 Posts
September 07 2013 17:11 GMT
#3451
what units are you typically building? If you ever see DTs stop immortal production immediately

you need good forcefields pretty much, and nexus cannon
I come in for the scraps
a176
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada6688 Posts
September 07 2013 18:04 GMT
#3452
how do i carrier vs terran?
starleague forever
Olli
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
Austria24417 Posts
September 07 2013 18:06 GMT
#3453
I try not to have more than 1 sentry since forcefields are basically useless against archons. Typically I'll pump zealot/stalker.

What if I did a 1gate expand -> robo? Same thing, simcity and mostly stalker based?
Administrator"Declaring anything a disaster because aLive popped up out of nowhere is just downright silly."
Kinon
Profile Joined October 2012
Romania207 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-07 18:08:08
September 07 2013 18:07 GMT
#3454
I saw this blog a while ago, about 2 gate FE in PvP and I was wondering if anyone here is familiar with it. Should I use it as my ladder PvP build? Blink all-ins seem to hard for me to pull off.
Olli
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
Austria24417 Posts
September 07 2013 18:08 GMT
#3455
I did 2gate FEs pretty much every game in WoL but 1gate expand -> robo seems a lot more stable in HotS.
Administrator"Declaring anything a disaster because aLive popped up out of nowhere is just downright silly."
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
September 07 2013 18:16 GMT
#3456
On September 08 2013 03:06 DarkLordOlli wrote:
I try not to have more than 1 sentry since forcefields are basically useless against archons. Typically I'll pump zealot/stalker.

What if I did a 1gate expand -> robo? Same thing, simcity and mostly stalker based?


Yeah pretty much. You might have to abandon the nexus vs the fastest timings; i'm not sure because i prefer the macro-oriented dt builds.

On September 08 2013 03:04 a176 wrote:
how do i carrier vs terran?


Don't, carriers are trash in all matchups sadly. Unless for some bizarre reason he's meching, but even then immortals are better.

On September 08 2013 03:07 Kinon wrote:
I saw this blog a while ago, about 2 gate FE in PvP and I was wondering if anyone here is familiar with it. Should I use it as my ladder PvP build? Blink all-ins seem to hard for me to pull off.


Most fast expand builds are reasonably safe vs blink. Stargate is what really gives them trouble.
If you wanna try it yeah go for it, it's a pretty solid build.
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
vhapter
Profile Joined May 2010
Brazil677 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-07 21:39:47
September 07 2013 21:26 GMT
#3457
On September 08 2013 03:07 Kinon wrote:
I saw this blog a while ago, about 2 gate FE in PvP and I was wondering if anyone here is familiar with it. Should I use it as my ladder PvP build? Blink all-ins seem to hard for me to pull off.


It's a good build. What I dislike, howerver, is the fact that you get your nexus relative late compared to a tight 1 gate expand build. I do the pretty much the same 1 gate FE as Naniwa (except I go sentry into stalker and Naniwa does it the other way around). I get my nexus at about 4:30, and I already find it very annoying when I see my opponents expand at like 4:00ish and cut a lot of corners while not even realizing how vulnerable they are. With this 2 gate expand build, you get your nexus at 5:30, which is much later than what I already do. You also get a later robo.

You have the option of canceling your nexus upon scouting stuff like a stargate gateway all in or whatever, and it keeps your opponent a bit more in the dark because your nexus is delayed, but aside from these things I haven't seen any reasons to pick it over a 1 gate FE. When I go blink against this build, I also find it easier to just force a cancel and contain my opponent with a sentry afterwards. As for the "window of time" you supposedly have against an earlier nexus, I haven't had any issues holding off this kind of pressure, and I thought it was kind of silly of Rain to go for a push in the game he played.

So it may well be a double-edged sword... perhaps safer against stargate if you play very conservatively, but likely more vulnerable to have your nexus canceled and getting contained by someone going blink.
To live is to fight, to fight is to live!
vhapter
Profile Joined May 2010
Brazil677 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-07 21:42:28
September 07 2013 21:31 GMT
#3458
All I can say is, take a look at Naniwa's build too... and consider going sentry into stalker instead of stalker into sentry with Nani's build, so you can scout with hallucination asap. John may be able to convince you to do this build (haha :D), but I still think Naniwa's build is definitely superior.

(accidentally quoted my previous post, so now it's 2 posts lol)
To live is to fight, to fight is to live!
Vlade
Profile Joined April 2013
United States14 Posts
September 07 2013 21:51 GMT
#3459
Is NaNiwa's PvZ 4-Gate Zealot build from DreamHack still viable?

The Build: 1 Gate FE > +3 Gates > Proxy Zealots w/MSC > Stargate/Robo

Been away from the game for about 3 months, was previously owning Zerg with this build, does it still work?
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
September 07 2013 21:53 GMT
#3460
Yeah you can definitely go for it. A popular variant on it is to get a quicker stargate and pressure with only 3 gates, but 4gate first is fine too.
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
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