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barbaTossa
23 Posts
I just lost to this in my 'promotion match'. I actually scouted a missing pylon and moved out to look for it. Didn't find anything, so I knew it was propably proxy sg and moved a stalker into position to defend against a oracle. Then Voidrays happened  | ||
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On September 03 2013 00:17 barbaTossa wrote: How do I hold proxy stargate => voidrays? I just lost to this in my 'promotion match'. I actually scouted a missing pylon and moved out to look for it. Didn't find anything, so I knew it was propably proxy sg and moved a stalker into position to defend against a oracle. Then Voidrays happened This is honestly quite difficult to hold even in the best circumstances. If you scout a proxy stargate or deduct that there is one, you need to rush out as many stalkers as possible and keep them around your nexus. From this point, your goal is to survive until you can throw down a nexus cannon, which should buy you enough time for 3 gates and warpgate to finish. Obviously, if you open with a 3-5 stalker rush, you're in the best circumstances. Most pro players, if they open with a zealot, will send the zealot to work on the pylon powering the stargate. | ||
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aldochillbro
187 Posts
On September 03 2013 00:17 barbaTossa wrote: How do I hold proxy stargate => voidrays? I just lost to this in my 'promotion match'. I actually scouted a missing pylon and moved out to look for it. Didn't find anything, so I knew it was propably proxy sg and moved a stalker into position to defend against a oracle. Then Voidrays happened 1. try to get a second gateway and chrono out stalkers 2. move your msc AWAY from the fight till overcharge is available. it does nothing until then. 3. don't engage a charged up void ray with stalkers, wait till it dies down | ||
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Extenz
Italy822 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12247 Posts
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On September 03 2013 02:57 Extenz wrote: is there a way to punish a zerg early speed? this zerg went early speed vs me I def so I go +1 all in to kill him ( with expo) when I arrive he has 3 bases with roach, it doesnt make any fucking sense, like what do you lose if you can just open to get the free win if it doesnt work it doesnt matter? It's just 100 minerals and 3 less drones mining minerals. It's not going to put him 20 drones behind a normal gasless timing to delay roaches so significantly as you imply it would. He loses a few drones, and that's not really going to make +1 any more powerful. | ||
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ElusoryX
Singapore2047 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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TarLaPaN
United States113 Posts
On September 03 2013 14:21 ElusoryX wrote: Anyone have any link to 1 Base Blink Stalker Mothership Core All-in? OP still has no guide on it.. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=414344 This is the build i used to use. You can skip the zealot. | ||
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ElusoryX
Singapore2047 Posts
On September 03 2013 14:41 TarLaPaN wrote: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=414344 This is the build i used to use. You can skip the zealot. Thank you! | ||
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megapants
United States1314 Posts
On September 03 2013 02:57 Extenz wrote: is there a way to punish a zerg early speed? this zerg went early speed vs me I def so I go +1 all in to kill him ( with expo) when I arrive he has 3 bases with roach, it doesnt make any fucking sense, like what do you lose if you can just open to get the free win if it doesnt work it doesnt matter? best answered with a replay, it's hard to say much about this type of scenario since you are talking about specific timings and not much info said about the openings. you might have lost too much in your defense or your timing could have been too late or your attack could have just been in a bad position or you might have just not even had enough probes to support your all-in. early ling speed builds don't invest a lot of gas, but they do invest a lot of larvae. knowing this principle should be enough to conclude that going for a really early timing attack like +1 weapons seems less likely to win than just holding off for a bit and trying to keep up or get ahead in worker count and gas expense by expanding and teching. | ||
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Kinon
Romania207 Posts
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Dragonadern
Switzerland17 Posts
(I posted this in the Strategy Forum aswell, but maybe my luck is better here  ) My Name is Trident (i know it says Dragonadern in my Profile, but ive had an ID Switch and cant Switch it on TL.. TT) and im a relatively high master protoss on the EU Server. Last Season i've had 1974 Points, this morning i've been playing five PvZs, all against Players around 2100-2300 Points last season, they were all top 8 Masters. I lost all those five games (still very good practice though :D ) and i've found myself struggling in this matchup. Im using the 5 phoenix into 4 gates -> robo and expand build, very Standard for this matchup. I cant shake the Feeling though, that im not utilizing the build perfectly, that there is some Major flaw i havent been able to see. I've analyzed the five games below and kindly ask for your help. Î would love to hear some Input from other high Level Players on These games, and thank you in advance http://drop.sc/357089 Opponent: Indra Map: Derelict Watcher I think this game comes down to the engagement at 13:30, up until then its fairly straightforward. I was harassing his drones in his main, and didngt focus on my army. Even if i had perfect focus on my army, i still think he would've rolled me at this stage. Im not exactly sure what i did wrong, was it my location for the engagement? or is my execution of the build wrong? My phoenix did adequate damage i guess, im not sure if i should incorporate a zealot-stalker-msc push to force some zerglings? maybe im letting the zerg alone for too long? I havent scouted the lack of the evo chambers (Vortix style i think?) I guess i have to play more defensively against this, but how and when can i engage a hydra army on derelict watcher? http://drop.sc/357088 Opponent: Indra Map: Akilon Wastes Ok this game went really fine, i scouted the early hive and thus the vipers incoming, got the early Templar Archives and defended that push ok, i lost a lot of my templars (i need to pay attention to his roaches sniping my templars...) I totally threw that game when i tried to attack his 2 o'clock base and lost my HTs and Void rays. After winning a fight, i must remember to wait until im maxed with HTs and Voids and only then push out (or if i have an MSC i can be more aggressive, but i lost mine at that point) Otherwise i think i played well, though i give the credit more to the map and its defensibility, and not exactly that i did something better than in the game vs Indra on Derelict Watcher. http://drop.sc/357087 Opponent: Indra Map: Yeonsu Same style as on Akilon Wastes, my opponent goes for fast vipers, i go for fast HTs. I think this game comes down to the engagement at my natural, i lose all my High templars and Colossi which is game ending. I just cant get rid of the feeling that im doing something fundamentally wrong with this style, am i wrong? http://drop.sc/357086 Opponent: Razarael Map: Whirlwind Here i did a push with my stalker and zealot, without MSC, i was able to force around 14 zerglings which i was happy about. I scout his early hydras, build some additional cannons and defend his push relatively effectively. I think the reason i lost this game was the fight at 18:00. Coupled with the lack of scouting of his broodlord tech, i lost a lot of army and could build additional stargates and voidrays to counter the broods and corruptors. http://drop.sc/357085 Opponent: Spirit Map: Derelict Watcher This game i thought i was really far ahead after scouting his roach push. I overcommited on defense though and didnt have enough colossi in time ( i think? ) or was it again the engagement position on derelict watcher? I cant shake the feeling that there has to be a better point for me to engage than there, between my natural and third, its sooo wide open for the zerg. overall thoughts: - am i doing enough damage with my phoenix? - how do i keep scouting? With two spores in each base, several queens and hydras, my phoenix get taken down extremely quickly, thus making me wary of scouting. but i think this keeps loosing me games. - Am i being aggressive enough? Should i incorporate a zealot-stalker-MSC push in the early game? It would delay my stargate, but maybe it would be worth it, if im able to force enough zerglings? Are there any other ways to be aggressive, maybe a warp prism before colossus? but then i wouldnt have an immortal.. Sorry this became a really Long post; i would be really thankful for advice though!! GLHF Teamliquid, Trident | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On September 03 2013 22:26 Kinon wrote: I have some really big scouting problems in PvP (I'm using Parting's blink all in, by the way). If I send the MSC out, a 4 gate will kill me (hits too fast for it to come back). If I don't use the MSC, I might not see anything. Since blink openers are vulnerable to DTs and I don't know what I'm facing, I'm very uncomfortable in this match-up. When should I scout, and what unit should I use for that purpose? Definitely worth watching: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=422646 Another easy way to scout is to just probe scout after core -> look for 4 pylons and how much gas has been mined, go sentry first and send a followup hallucination scout at 6:00. Between those two scouts, you should be able to get a crystal clear read on your opponent. As a sidenote, I don't like MsC scouting in this matchup...it's super risky and very likely to get you killed. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On September 03 2013 00:17 barbaTossa wrote: How do I hold proxy stargate => voidrays? I just lost to this in my 'promotion match'. I actually scouted a missing pylon and moved out to look for it. Didn't find anything, so I knew it was propably proxy sg and moved a stalker into position to defend against a oracle. Then Voidrays happened Held this easily the other day going with my normal build. Depends what your build is, but Photon Overcharge will delay the first 1-2 Void Rays enough for you to get adequat defenses out / start making your own VR. I open 2 gate Phoenix most games so I was okay. I think if you are going 1 gate expand you just lose, to be honest. You need to scout for and kill the pylon. | ||
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bretfart
114 Posts
On September 03 2013 22:30 Dragonadern wrote: Hello fellow Protoss! (I posted this in the Strategy Forum aswell, but maybe my luck is better here ) My Name is Trident (i know it says Dragonadern in my Profile, but ive had an ID Switch and cant Switch it on TL.. TT) and im a relatively high master protoss on the EU Server. Last Season i've had 1974 Points, this morning i've been playing five PvZs, all against Players around 2100-2300 Points last season, they were all top 8 Masters. I lost all those five games (still very good practice though :D ) and i've found myself struggling in this matchup. Im using the 5 phoenix into 4 gates -> robo and expand build, very Standard for this matchup. I cant shake the Feeling though, that im not utilizing the build perfectly, that there is some Major flaw i havent been able to see. I've analyzed the five games below and kindly ask for your help. Î would love to hear some Input from other high Level Players on These games, and thank you in advance http://drop.sc/357089 Opponent: Indra Map: Derelict Watcher I think this game comes down to the engagement at 13:30, up until then its fairly straightforward. I was harassing his drones in his main, and didngt focus on my army. Even if i had perfect focus on my army, i still think he would've rolled me at this stage. Im not exactly sure what i did wrong, was it my location for the engagement? or is my execution of the build wrong? My phoenix did adequate damage i guess, im not sure if i should incorporate a zealot-stalker-msc push to force some zerglings? maybe im letting the zerg alone for too long? I havent scouted the lack of the evo chambers (Vortix style i think?) I guess i have to play more defensively against this, but how and when can i engage a hydra army on derelict watcher? http://drop.sc/357088 Opponent: Indra Map: Akilon Wastes Ok this game went really fine, i scouted the early hive and thus the vipers incoming, got the early Templar Archives and defended that push ok, i lost a lot of my templars (i need to pay attention to his roaches sniping my templars...) I totally threw that game when i tried to attack his 2 o'clock base and lost my HTs and Void rays. After winning a fight, i must remember to wait until im maxed with HTs and Voids and only then push out (or if i have an MSC i can be more aggressive, but i lost mine at that point) Otherwise i think i played well, though i give the credit more to the map and its defensibility, and not exactly that i did something better than in the game vs Indra on Derelict Watcher. http://drop.sc/357087 Opponent: Indra Map: Yeonsu Same style as on Akilon Wastes, my opponent goes for fast vipers, i go for fast HTs. I think this game comes down to the engagement at my natural, i lose all my High templars and Colossi which is game ending. I just cant get rid of the feeling that im doing something fundamentally wrong with this style, am i wrong? http://drop.sc/357086 Opponent: Razarael Map: Whirlwind Here i did a push with my stalker and zealot, without MSC, i was able to force around 14 zerglings which i was happy about. I scout his early hydras, build some additional cannons and defend his push relatively effectively. I think the reason i lost this game was the fight at 18:00. Coupled with the lack of scouting of his broodlord tech, i lost a lot of army and could build additional stargates and voidrays to counter the broods and corruptors. http://drop.sc/357085 Opponent: Spirit Map: Derelict Watcher This game i thought i was really far ahead after scouting his roach push. I overcommited on defense though and didnt have enough colossi in time ( i think? ) or was it again the engagement position on derelict watcher? I cant shake the feeling that there has to be a better point for me to engage than there, between my natural and third, its sooo wide open for the zerg. overall thoughts: - am i doing enough damage with my phoenix? - how do i keep scouting? With two spores in each base, several queens and hydras, my phoenix get taken down extremely quickly, thus making me wary of scouting. but i think this keeps loosing me games. - Am i being aggressive enough? Should i incorporate a zealot-stalker-MSC push in the early game? It would delay my stargate, but maybe it would be worth it, if im able to force enough zerglings? Are there any other ways to be aggressive, maybe a warp prism before colossus? but then i wouldnt have an immortal.. Sorry this became a really Long post; i would be really thankful for advice though!! GLHF Teamliquid, Trident This post is too long, really. I would recommend to reduce it to maybe 2 replays because watching and analysing 5 replays at once is a bit too much | ||
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Kinon
Romania207 Posts
On September 04 2013 00:44 SC2John wrote: Definitely worth watching: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=422646 Another easy way to scout is to just probe scout after core -> look for 4 pylons and how much gas has been mined, go sentry first and send a followup hallucination scout at 6:00. Between those two scouts, you should be able to get a crystal clear read on your opponent. As a sidenote, I don't like MsC scouting in this matchup...it's super risky and very likely to get you killed. That video was interesting, but your advice confused me. I'm always going for blink stalkers all-in, and I can't afford a sentry. I was thinking of sending the probe after cyber core, but the info that I can get that way is limited. I'll try and play a bit more games and see what I can do... | ||
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Larkin
United Kingdom7161 Posts
I feel a robo can be forgone for a while against Zerg but the threat of DTs/banshees is pretty strong. Or can you just rely on Oracles/cannons for detection? If the latter, how many gates should I get before a forge? | ||
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Teoita
Italy12247 Posts
PvT: who the fuck goes banshee, mines are a bigger threat. Either way, you can go 1gate fe>stargate>robo (see my flash vs rain article) PvP: i'm not entirely sure, i don't really go stargate in pvp but you can definitely rely on oracle for detection IF YOU MAKE A GOOD READ AND PLAY CAREFULLY. I've beaten several players better than me in tournaments simply by abusing their stargate builds with twilight stuff. PvZ: assuming you go 1gate fe, i'd go 1gate fe>forge/stargate in your natural to wall>3more gates>robo. Assuming you ffe, check out the pvz guide, the stargate builds are largely unchanged if you want to go stargate>colossus. | ||
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Larkin
United Kingdom7161 Posts
On September 04 2013 03:38 Teoita wrote: That's incredibly generic and build dependant, but as a super rough guideline: PvT: who the fuck goes banshee, mines are a bigger threat. Either way, you can go 1gate fe>stargate>robo (see my flash vs rain article) PvP: i'm not entirely sure, i don't really go stargate in pvp but you can definitely rely on oracle for detection IF YOU MAKE A GOOD READ AND PLAY CAREFULLY. I've beaten several players better than me in tournaments simply by abusing their stargate builds with twilight stuff. PvZ: assuming you go 1gate fe, i'd go 1gate fe>forge/stargate in your natural to wall>3more gates>robo. Assuming you ffe, check out the pvz guide, the stargate builds are largely unchanged if you want to go stargate>colossus. Thanks. I don't go SG much in PvP 1v1 but in 2v2 I like it. Though I've been playing against quite a few cloaked banshee plays in 1v1 lately. Granted I'm only diamond but still, it can be pretty hard to deal with. | ||
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TarLaPaN
United States113 Posts
On September 04 2013 02:45 Kinon wrote: That video was interesting, but your advice confused me. I'm always going for blink stalkers all-in, and I can't afford a sentry. I was thinking of sending the probe after cyber core, but the info that I can get that way is limited. I'll try and play a bit more games and see what I can do... When I used that build facing 4-gate was tricky but not impossible. If you don't want to use a sentry hallucination then you have to use the MSC. Once you see the gates send your stalkers on the map to try to find his probe, but don't go too far. Regarding the MSC, its possible to quickly send it back to your base. You'll need to chronoboost warpgate and not blink. Pull probes to buy time for your MSC to get back to overcharge. If your playing on a big map it may not be possible to send back the MSC, you can try attacking probes with it and force him to warp in a stalker at home. Make sure to recall with it although that means no overcharge at home. If you get lucky you can kill enough probes to hurt his economy to make a hold. | ||
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