EPTwhat is the most popular PvT build, I feel rains build has been slightly outdated
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The HotS Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 172
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Garth
United States353 Posts
what is the most popular PvT build, I feel rains build has been slightly outdated User was warned for this post | ||
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On September 04 2013 02:45 Kinon wrote: That video was interesting, but your advice confused me. I'm always going for blink stalkers all-in, and I can't afford a sentry. I was thinking of sending the probe after cyber core, but the info that I can get that way is limited. I'll try and play a bit more games and see what I can do... Apologies, I thought you were looking for just ANY way to scout reliably. The other common scout timing is a probe scout into your opponent's main @6:00 (usually after you build a proxy pylon at ~33/34 supply). If you can walk up into his main, that means his units are out on the map and you need to warp in your first 3 stalkers at home. If your probe gets denied, it's either a tech play or a fast expansion (and you'll see the expansion generally) and you can be aggressive. However, this doesn't definitively tell you whether or not it's DTs, so yeah, I guess you need to scout with the MsC or just build an early robo in case if you're going for blink stalkers. To be honest, I don't like blink plays in PvP anymore. They're really easily stopped since the blink nerf and there's just too much that can go wrong in execution. | ||
Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
On September 03 2013 22:26 Kinon wrote: I have some really big scouting problems in PvP (I'm using Parting's blink all in, by the way). If I send the MSC out, a 4 gate will kill me (hits too fast for it to come back). If I don't use the MSC, I might not see anything. Since blink openers are vulnerable to DTs and I don't know what I'm facing, I'm very uncomfortable in this match-up. When should I scout, and what unit should I use for that purpose? You need to use your msc to scout your opponent with this build. If you can't get enough intel by 6 minutes and want to be safe against dts, you should get a robo immediately. If you can't see anything inside your opponent's base and he's not doing any kind of gateway pressure, it usually means proxy dark shrine or proxy stargate. In this case, you either need to get a robo or gamble. Nowadays, I think you're more likely to run into a 10 gate than a 4 gate to be honest. If you're not confident enough in your ability to hold off a 4 gate with msc scouting, you can always just send a probe scout and see how much nexus energy your opponent has and how many geysers he took. | ||
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dreamsmasher
816 Posts
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On September 04 2013 14:36 dreamsmasher wrote: why is immortal/archon/charge zealot so prevalent. if players are committing to robo play why isn't colosuss still in style? shouldn't a colossus style crush a immortal archon only player considering the colosuss player will also have a few immortal and archon mixed in too? colosus just have such superior splash damge when you have like 6+ i can't see why its missing fro m the picture. i guess tempest, but i would think the colosuss player could just get his own air. First thing: Immortal/archon/chargelot is just a very good all-around midgame composition that's very easy to transition into from almost any opening. Colossus get pretty hard countered by stargate builds, especially ones that transition into void rays. The reason why Immortal/archon/chargelot works against colossus is that in the midgame on open ground, immortal/archon/chargelot rapes armies with low numbers of colossus (~4 or less). This means that the zealot/archon player can expand to a third more quickly and tech up to tempests in time to counter the colossi once they start to hit a critical mass. There are some instances where colossus players can hit a 2-base timing, but this depends rather largely on starting colossus production very early and whether or not your opponent can delay the push with harassment until they have all the pieces for immortal/archon/chargelot. In the lategame colossus/tempest is not nearly as good as immortal/archon/tempest, so there's no point in trying to keep up colossus production after switching into air. All in all, it's not that colossi are bad or no longer viable, it's just that immortal/archon/chargelot is more flexible and allows for a lot more map and gameflow control in the midgame. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
On September 04 2013 14:36 dreamsmasher wrote: why is immortal/archon/charge zealot so prevalent. if players are committing to robo play why isn't colosuss still in style? shouldn't a colossus style crush a immortal archon only player considering the colosuss player will also have a few immortal and archon mixed in too? colosus just have such superior splash damge when you have like 6+ i can't see why its missing fro m the picture. i guess tempest, but i would think the colosuss player could just get his own air. Switching to tempest for the archon/immortal player is pretty simple; he can just take a faster third than someone going colossus, add extra gates, then put some pressure on and tech to tempest behind it. If you're going colossus you already have to play much more defensively. Your slower army only wins fights in a constricted space, for example close to a base, or once you max out, giving the immortal/archon player time to max out himself. When you go colossus, you really don't have time to get your own air until REALLY late in the game. Off two bases it's obvoiusly out of the question; you of three means you will likely have to delay archons and templar tech in favour of colossus (resulting in a god awful first maxed army), off of four...well the other guy will already have the 5 tempest required to oneshot your colossus. The cheaper alternative is to go void rays, which honestly i don't think are very strong in pvp. For one, a wol style colossus/archon/immortal army actually beats (if you reinforce with stalkers) a colossus/void ray army. Also, they are extremenly vulnerable to storm, which is very accessible with the archon/immortal style. Colossus does open up some strong timings with about 4 colossi, but it's very very dangerous to commit to them for a long time. | ||
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barbaTossa
23 Posts
How do I deal with hellbat/marauder? The hellbats fry my Zealots and then even Immortals won't save my naked army. Can someone describe all the steps in an PvT engagement? The FAQ mentions I shouldn't a-move. What should I do instead? hold position, a-move colossus? I always lose all my colossus in an engagement, how does Rain manage to not lose a single one? I try to storm > focus fire with blink stalkers. Do I miss something? In PvZ I usually go for triple sg vr colossus. And in my league I deal with roach/hydra 99% of the time. All zergs have overseers with their armys nowadays and kill my observers. Afterwards I proceed to lose the game because they engage me when I'm not looking or they show up where my army is not and either ransack my natural or 3rd. Do I have to use revelation? In PvT and PvZ: I generally do not attack. Ever. I usually get to the compostion I want when I have to take my 4th at ~16mins. I'm pretty sure this is too late and I only start trading when I'm sure I can replenish. How should I approach this? I feel like often times it's a lot harder to win than it could've been. On the other hand if I move out I usually miscontrol and lose all my expensive units. (I was platinum in wol and (with the help of this thread) last season. I am currently sitting at the top of gold) | ||
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Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
You need some sort of aoe to beat marauder/hellbat, either storm or colossus. Both work, if you lose to it it's an execution issue. PvT engagements are discussed in the OP of the thread, what isn't clear in rsvp's answer exactly? What you are doing sounds reasonable, so i can't tell why you are losing. With proper army positioning, observers are useful but not that important in PvZ; i highly doubt you have the multitasking to constantly keep oracles moving around the map looking to reveal his army so don't bother with it (plus, oracles are god awful). You need need better map awareness and positioning really. Also, remember to remake your observers. If you are going for a super gas-heavy army like colossus/void ray, a 4th at that timing is fine. Generally you can't trade with a gas heavy army, so you need to sit back and build your deathball. If you want to force yourself to improve your control, you could try mixing in a few all-ins that really rely on micro and execution like soultrains or blink all-ins. At first you will lose horribly, but it's a good way to practice unit control. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
I just can't seem to make Phoenixes work vs Z. I FFE and get my Stargate ASAP and send out the Phoenixes immediately as they finish while continuing to make up to 4-5. I usually kill 2 or so overlords at my base and maybe 1-2 more around the map. I pick off a couple of drones here and there and if he's not careful sometimes I can get a queen. But usually there's 2 spores + 1 queen per base and I can't do much more damage than that. Meanwhile, in terms of "real" army, I feel like the Zerg still ends up getting a huge roach hydra army and by the time I'm getting Colossus he's already adding on Corruptors. Or if I try to take an early 3rd, my Phoenixes can't really defend it and it's shut down by a bunch of speedlings. Basically I feel like the Phoenixes slow me down more than they slow the Zerg down. Also... how the heck do you defend your third base on Whirlwind vs Z? Regardless of which one you take. If your army is at the natural, your 3rd dies or you have to take an unfavorable fight. if your army is at the 3rd, he can attack into your natural freely. And if you put the army in the middle, you're extremely exposed. Rank 16 or so diamond. | ||
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[UoN]Sentinel
United States11320 Posts
On September 05 2013 02:55 DinoMight wrote: Guys, help. I just can't seem to make Phoenixes work vs Z. I FFE and get my Stargate ASAP and send out the Phoenixes immediately as they finish while continuing to make up to 4-5. I usually kill 2 or so overlords at my base and maybe 1-2 more around the map. I pick off a couple of drones here and there and if he's not careful sometimes I can get a queen. But usually there's 2 spores + 1 queen per base and I can't do much more damage than that. Meanwhile, in terms of "real" army, I feel like the Zerg still ends up getting a huge roach hydra army and by the time I'm getting Colossus he's already adding on Corruptors. Or if I try to take an early 3rd, my Phoenixes can't really defend it and it's shut down by a bunch of speedlings. Basically I feel like the Phoenixes slow me down more than they slow the Zerg down. Also... how the heck do you defend your third base on Whirlwind vs Z? Regardless of which one you take. If your army is at the natural, your 3rd dies or you have to take an unfavorable fight. if your army is at the 3rd, he can attack into your natural freely. And if you put the army in the middle, you're extremely exposed. Rank 16 or so diamond. How fast are you getting your robo? Your colossi seem to be coming out fairly late, even for a phoenix opener. Your phoenixes themselves are cost-efficient, even if you only kill a few drones, ovins and a queen, you can factor in the cost of all those drones that are turned into spores instead of mining, as well as heavily reducing the chances of muta harass in your own mineral lines. Since you do have the stargate up, you can defend your colossi with a few charged up voids. As for speedlings... I haven't played any games on whirlwind lately, but I believe you can keep your core at your natural to buy time while your army is in your third? | ||
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VayneAuthority
United States8983 Posts
did a 1 gate expand and teched to void rays, pretty standard stuff. He responded by just flat out massing lings/banelings and while I held off the first couple waves, I could never actually attack him and he just continued to expand and throw lings/banes at me while dropping banes in my mineral lines. wtf do you do here? I know you want collosi but I never really saw the window where I would be able to switch tech..if I stopped producing units I would just die. seemed like just a straight up build order loss but I assume there's something I could do | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
He probably got ahead econ wise in the early engagements and his lead carried him. | ||
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VayneAuthority
United States8983 Posts
On September 05 2013 04:55 DinoMight wrote: It's really annoying. But if hes on only lings for a while and teching/expanding, you have to attack and damage him. He probably got ahead econ wise in the early engagements and his lead carried him. yea I was leaning towards warp prism being the answer. Straight up attacking was not an option, since if I moved out anywhere he would just attempt to baserace me and yea... dont want that  | ||
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nath
United States1788 Posts
I'm going 13g 14p 15g 16g (2 in each), 21p 22core. in PvP i can continue into a 2 gate (2z 3s) that is very flexible and i know how to play that out well. im doing great in PvP with this being able to transition into allin, tech, or expand. in PvT i think i definitely need to change this and not just because of proxy fact's coming really quick - since core is slightly delayed, even though you get a ton of gas the robo is just a bit late for fast widow mines. however, the opening is meant for 2z 1s, and in pvt this is rather useless unless the player is greedy or bad, or allining. what i do is get 1 zealot only, have gateway not being used for a bit, get nexus and then chrono stalkers from 1 gate + MsC to poke or for defense. i add a gateway, robo, and forge and go into 1 collo -> HT and take a relatively late third, adding gates 2 or 3 at a time. in PvZ i poke with 2z 1s while building nexus, and go robo/forge into either immortal allin or 3rd nexus off 2 gas, 3 immortals, and 7 gates. this is also working well for me. what should i change about my opener for PvT? and what do you guys do in general to practice mechanics only? thanks. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On September 05 2013 05:00 VayneAuthority wrote: yea I was leaning towards warp prism being the answer. Straight up attacking was not an option, since if I moved out anywhere he would just attempt to baserace me and yea... dont want that If he only has speedlings you just straight up zealot sentry and walk across the map to do some damage. you cannot just sit in your main and try to warp prism harass while he drones up. a couple of sentries and a cannon should be able to hold off any base race attempt from him. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On September 05 2013 05:25 nath wrote: Hey guys. getting back into the game, i am using a rather dated opening and im wondering if its unsafe vs anything in hots (so far it seems like really fast gas / proxy fact from terran might be a big weakness for it, but i also probably just got caught off guard and didnt react appropriately). I'm going 13g 14p 15g 16g (2 in each), 21p 22core. in PvP i can continue into a 2 gate (2z 3s) that is very flexible and i know how to play that out well. im doing great in PvP with this being able to transition into allin, tech, or expand. in PvT i think i definitely need to change this and not just because of proxy fact's coming really quick - since core is slightly delayed, even though you get a ton of gas the robo is just a bit late for fast widow mines. however, the opening is meant for 2z 1s, and in pvt this is rather useless unless the player is greedy or bad, or allining. what i do is get 1 zealot only, have gateway not being used for a bit, get nexus and then chrono stalkers from 1 gate + MsC to poke or for defense. i add a gateway, robo, and forge and go into 1 collo -> HT and take a relatively late third, adding gates 2 or 3 at a time. in PvZ i poke with 2z 1s while building nexus, and go robo/forge into either immortal allin or 3rd nexus off 2 gas, 3 immortals, and 7 gates. this is also working well for me. what should i change about my opener for PvT? and what do you guys do in general to practice mechanics only? thanks. Don't do that. 13Gate, 15 double Gas, 16Pylon, 17Cyber is how I roll. Only chrono Nexus the whole time (you have to cut for a second at 16 to get the pylon down so don't chrono on 16). More effective and allows you to get a zealot/stalker, and msc asap if you don't scout or a stalker/MsC if you do (100 minerals difference from lost mining time). I use this vs all three races (except when I FFE vs. Zerg). Vs. P I usually add a second gate and Stargate then expand but it's up to you. Vs. T I usually make a nexus and then immediately robo and forge for upgrades. That is as standard as it gets right now. Vs. Z I FFE because it's safer. If you move outwith your first 2z and 1 stalker you sometimes can do damage but keep in mind you're extremely vulnderable to a speedling allin (for which you'll need those units at home to defend) | ||
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bretfart
114 Posts
On September 05 2013 04:36 VayneAuthority wrote: this is probably really vague but ran into a high masters zerg that pulled ths on me (only lost like 5 points so whatever) did a 1 gate expand and teched to void rays, pretty standard stuff. He responded by just flat out massing lings/banelings and while I held off the first couple waves, I could never actually attack him and he just continued to expand and throw lings/banes at me while dropping banes in my mineral lines. wtf do you do here? I know you want collosi but I never really saw the window where I would be able to switch tech..if I stopped producing units I would just die. seemed like just a straight up build order loss but I assume there's something I could do templar tech is crucial here. When you are going mass voids you probably want archons and/or temps with it anyways. So storm should be a good option in order to deal with it. also building tight walls and having a couple of sentries at each important location should help | ||
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Exclamark
United States29 Posts
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dreamsmasher
816 Posts
On September 04 2013 17:59 Teoita wrote: Switching to tempest for the archon/immortal player is pretty simple; he can just take a faster third than someone going colossus, add extra gates, then put some pressure on and tech to tempest behind it. If you're going colossus you already have to play much more defensively. Your slower army only wins fights in a constricted space, for example close to a base, or once you max out, giving the immortal/archon player time to max out himself. When you go colossus, you really don't have time to get your own air until REALLY late in the game. Off two bases it's obvoiusly out of the question; you of three means you will likely have to delay archons and templar tech in favour of colossus (resulting in a god awful first maxed army), off of four...well the other guy will already have the 5 tempest required to oneshot your colossus. The cheaper alternative is to go void rays, which honestly i don't think are very strong in pvp. For one, a wol style colossus/archon/immortal army actually beats (if you reinforce with stalkers) a colossus/void ray army. Also, they are extremenly vulnerable to storm, which is very accessible with the archon/immortal style. Colossus does open up some strong timings with about 4 colossi, but it's very very dangerous to commit to them for a long time. is there a vod to illustrate your point? i almost never win against mass air myself once thy are able to max out. i get storm and a large blink stalker/archon/immortal army, but i always end up not killing the VRS fast enough before my ground gets melted by theirs. i come close in a lot of fights against VR, but never win. conversely i've never lost a pvp in equal footing late game where we both ahve robo armies and i have colossi or i go mass air and they counter with templar. it just feels like colossi is an easier choice for non GM or top masters players. | ||
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