EPTThe HotS Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 176
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders. | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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HelpMeGetBetter
United States764 Posts
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Garth
United States353 Posts
On September 13 2013 10:36 HelpMeGetBetter wrote: I actually tried some cheese today (i'm not proud of myself...) in the form of proxy gateways for a zealot rush. So, that completely doesnt work if your opponent gets a mothership core out right? Or am I missing something? You need to hit before that happens | ||
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iLevitate
United States225 Posts
On September 13 2013 10:36 HelpMeGetBetter wrote: I actually tried some cheese today (i'm not proud of myself...) in the form of proxy gateways for a zealot rush. So, that completely doesnt work if your opponent gets a mothership core out right? Or am I missing something? Don't be old fashion. Proxy gate/get gas/ cyber/ 2 gates/ mass stalkers rush. | ||
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On September 13 2013 10:36 HelpMeGetBetter wrote: I actually tried some cheese today (i'm not proud of myself...) in the form of proxy gateways for a zealot rush. So, that completely doesnt work if your opponent gets a mothership core out right? Or am I missing something? The proper way to do this is both gates on 12, save all your chronoboost for the gateways. You should attack into his probes with 1 probe/1 zealot and force him to pull them and kill his income. Once your 2nd and 3rd zealots get out you can engage directly. You should have 3 zealots out before your opponent's core finishes and the most he can have is a single chronoboosted zealot. If you manage to sneak this in your opponent's base without him knowing, you should win 100% of the time unless he micros amazingly or you lose your first zealot too early. On September 13 2013 10:50 iLevitate wrote: Don't be old fashion. Proxy gate/get gas/ cyber/ 2 gates/ mass stalkers rush. This is also a legitimate strategy. Proxy gateway -> cyber core -> gateway near your opponent (gas on 14, 2 gates total). You should have 1 zealot/3 stalkers when your opponent has (at best) 1 zealot/1 stalker/MsC. If he cuts any corners and doesn't scout your main base/proxy, he straight up dies. (Sidenote: DO NOT start warp gate with this build). Hope this clears some things up! | ||
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Aveng3r
United States2411 Posts
On September 10 2013 10:44 VayneAuthority wrote: what is the counter to a macro orientated 1-1-1? I'm having fun on europe server offracing as terran and hold a 100% winrate in tvp at high diamond now from just doing 1-1-1 with no cutting into a 3-1-1 that has about 7 banshees/7 tanks and a handful of marauder/marines in the timing. What would you do vs this? just want to know what to look out for  what time exactly is this attack hitting? 7 banshess and 7 tanks sounds like you are waiting until the 16 minute mark to move out | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On September 13 2013 12:06 Aveng3r wrote: what time exactly is this attack hitting? 7 banshess and 7 tanks sounds like you are waiting until the 16 minute mark to move out First banshee gets to opponent's base around 7:00. Banshees have about a minute build time. Therefore: If it's one-base, you can expect it to hit around 7:00 + (7 x 1:00) = 14:00 On two bases, it would be 2 minutes later (16:00) So yeah, good assessment  . Overall, this is just a bad build that relies on the protoss auto-piloting and cutting every corner possible to lolfail. | ||
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blooblooblahblah
Australia4163 Posts
On September 13 2013 11:20 SC2John wrote: The proper way to do this is both gates on 12, save all your chronoboost for the gateways. You should attack into his probes with 1 probe/1 zealot and force him to pull them and kill his income. Once your 2nd and 3rd zealots get out you can engage directly. You should have 3 zealots out before your opponent's core finishes and the most he can have is a single chronoboosted zealot. If you manage to sneak this in your opponent's base without him knowing, you should win 100% of the time unless he micros amazingly or you lose your first zealot too early. This is also a legitimate strategy. Proxy gateway -> cyber core -> gateway near your opponent (gas on 14, 2 gates total). You should have 1 zealot/3 stalkers when your opponent has (at best) 1 zealot/1 stalker/MsC. If he cuts any corners and doesn't scout your main base/proxy, he straight up dies. (Sidenote: DO NOT start warp gate with this build). Hope this clears some things up! Sorry, but these aren't really the most common ways to do the two builds in my experience. IMO, the latest you can make both gateways is 10 supply not 12, gates on 12 would give enough time for a decent player to get a mothership core out and just kite you forever with stalkers. Building both gates on 10 and go up to 12 probes is the better way to do it (although you can also build ur gates on 8 or 9 for faster zealots). Also when doing the 2 gate gas build, it's much more common to get the gas on 12 now not 14 (14 was common in WoL but that is because most builds would skip the zealot and go for 3 stalkers). Nowadays, the more common build is to get ur gas on 12 and cut probes on 12 (you also get your second gate before core at 12 supply letting you make 2 stalkers right as the core finishes). You then attack with 1 zealot and 2 stalkers. It's not really possible to attack with 1 zealot 3 stalkers efficiently, you either go for the more modern 1 zealot 2 stalker proxy or the 3 stalker no zealot proxy (and in the case of the 3 stalker proxy, it is viable to go 14 gas) | ||
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VayneAuthority
United States8983 Posts
On September 13 2013 12:28 SC2John wrote: First banshee gets to opponent's base around 7:00. Banshees have about a minute build time. Therefore: If it's one-base, you can expect it to hit around 7:00 + (7 x 1:00) = 14:00 On two bases, it would be 2 minutes later (16:00) So yeah, good assessment . Overall, this is just a bad build that relies on the protoss auto-piloting and cutting every corner possible to lolfail.yea keep in mind this is diamond players on europe, not like im playing anyone good. its just a joke build for fun. You get banshees out early and micro/harass with them and expand behind that. then you slowly pump out tanks and add banshees and once stim/combat shield finish at the same time (you start stim on first tech lab, combat shield on second) you go in for the timing. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On September 13 2013 14:14 blooblooblahblah wrote: Sorry, but these aren't really the most common ways to do the two builds in my experience. IMO, the latest you can make both gateways is 10 supply not 12, gates on 12 would give enough time for a decent player to get a mothership core out and just kite you forever with stalkers. Building both gates on 10 and go up to 12 probes is the better way to do it (although you can also build ur gates on 8 or 9 for faster zealots). Also when doing the 2 gate gas build, it's much more common to get the gas on 12 now not 14 (14 was common in WoL but that is because most builds would skip the zealot and go for 3 stalkers). Nowadays, the more common build is to get ur gas on 12 and cut probes on 12 (you also get your second gate before core at 12 supply letting you make 2 stalkers right as the core finishes). You then attack with 1 zealot and 2 stalkers. It's not really possible to attack with 1 zealot 3 stalkers efficiently, you either go for the more modern 1 zealot 2 stalker proxy or the 3 stalker no zealot proxy (and in the case of the 3 stalker proxy, it is viable to go 14 gas) Thank you for the clarification. To be honest, I really don't do cheese much, so I don't have these super refined. | ||
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Squiggles
Canada54 Posts
Did something shift that made FFE a lot less common in PvZ? (I FFE 100% of the time PvZ, and it is my best matchup - until this season) | ||
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da_head
Canada3350 Posts
On September 14 2013 02:39 Squiggles wrote: I've been noticing a lot of pro's going gateway expand instead of FFE in PvZ? Rain went exclusively gate-FE in his PvZ's recently, and watching pro streams have them all going gate-FE instead of FFE. Did something shift that made FFE a lot less common in PvZ? (I FFE 100% of the time PvZ, and it is my best matchup - until this season) The MSC allows you to safely gateway expand with minimal units (and good building placement). Its advantage over ffe is that you can tech/pressure a lot quicker and the zerg can't take a super quick third consequently. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
FFE is fine too though. | ||
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-Napkin
United States41 Posts
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + hot dayum I'm an archon now | ||
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VayneAuthority
United States8983 Posts
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
On September 14 2013 03:01 -Napkin wrote: Anyone have any GM level replays of a protoss holding reaper going nexus first without losing any/very few probes? I recall Innovation only killing 2 probes on Whirlwind not too long ago, but I can't recall the game. However, to be totally honest, he wasted a bit of time with his reaper along the way, though I don't remember what it was. If you're actually willing to search for it, then look for a game where Innovation spawns in the top right and his opponent in the top left. But if I recall correctly, it was nothing out of this world, just a little bit odd Innovation didn't get as many kills as expect. On September 14 2013 03:50 VayneAuthority wrote: yea that's not possible unless they have bronze level reaper micro but somehow in GM. there's very little point to going nexus first anyway, just build nexus before or after MSC. If they decide to just attack with first group of marines or anything you will lose a lot due to to not having msc energy I have to disagree. It's a nice metagame build - depending on who you're playing. If your opponent doesn't like to go reapers, you can go nexus first and be nearly as safe as you would by going msc expand. You get a stronger economy in exchange for a 1-minute delay in wg research and your msc (which delays photon overcharge by a minute obviously), and getting your first 2 geysers later as well. But delaying warp gate research does not mean you can't make units, the real difference is that you can't warp in units reactively. You aren't that vulnerable to aggressive play either imo. Most marine pokes I've seen hit at about 7:00+, and at this point you should already have photon overcharge and enough gateway units to defend. A well-executed gas first opening is probably deadly if you cut units or something, but aside from that and an 11-11, I think it's fine. | ||
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Rickyvalle21
United States320 Posts
On September 14 2013 03:01 -Napkin wrote: Anyone have any GM level replays of a protoss holding reaper going nexus first without losing any/very few probes? Only time ive seen nexus first at a pro level was Creator vs Bomber on whirlwind. In wcs korea season 1 code s. He double scouted using scv as first scout then reaper to scout next 2 positions and with good target firing he managed to kill 4 probes. I cant link game unfortunately because im on mobile. Like someone mention before, its not possible to lose less then 2 probes with nexus first unless your opponent is unlucky and scouts last position assuming your nexus first only on whirlwind. Nexus first is not viable on 2 player maps anymore. | ||
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On September 14 2013 13:04 Rickyvalle21 wrote: Only time ive seen nexus first at a pro level was Creator vs Bomber on whirlwind. In wcs korea season 1 code s. He double scouted using scv as first scout then reaper to scout next 2 positions and with good target firing he managed to kill 4 probes. I cant link game unfortunately because im on mobile. Like someone mention before, its not possible to lose less then 2 probes with nexus first unless your opponent is unlucky and scouts last position assuming your nexus first only on whirlwind. Nexus first is not viable on 2 player maps anymore. You can still do it on maps where reaper openings are considered bad as a metagame risk, as it's easy enough to defend if they don't open reaper. It's always going to be a gamble though. | ||
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