EPTThe HotS Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 178
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders. | ||
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VayneAuthority
United States8983 Posts
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Salivanth
Australia1071 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12247 Posts
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VayneAuthority
United States8983 Posts
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KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
On September 24 2013 01:07 Teoita wrote: It's doable but it might make holding some of the fastest scv pulls a little harder. Then again, afaik scv pulls aren't very common (or strong, they have a very narrow timing to hit) outside of the very very very top levels, so you can definitely go for it yes. They are pretty common at least from the terran players i meet. Any pre-storm timing with a lot of vikings is strong itself, if scvs are added it becomes almost impossible to hold unless you have perfect positioning. Also even if you have 3-4 storms in time it won't be enough. I figured that maybe you could hold that if you just kept building colossi instead of trying to get storms, but it seems like the colossus/blink stalker army is just too weak in a direct engagement. The real issue though is that you can't predict an scv pull is coming until you see scvs coming out of his base, so there's no way you can do stuff like cutting probes beforehand to prepare properly. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12247 Posts
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Ravenoz
Germany16 Posts
Now i have another problem in pvz: the zergs delay their third up to about 8:30 or 9:00 minutes. I'm using stardusts upgrade heavy style right now with zealot sentry immortal which tries to expand to a third at about 8:50. In this game i saw his third was pretty late and saw him take 4 gas geysers on 2 bases, so i thought he is going for fast tech, possibly mutas. i tried to do a push off 2 bases with immortal sentry zealot to do a lot of damage before the mutas are out but i suddenly run into a HUGE pack of hydras which i can not engage. now my third base is delayed and i can not get enough splash units out in time to fight off his roach hydra pushes. How do i know if i can take a fast third if a zerg delayes his? i have this problem particularly against upgrade heavy 2 base ling styles which try to go for fast ultras. i just feel like i can never take my third savely without having 30 speedlings run over and deny it. Or what is the best response from 2 bases if a zerg is rushing tech? are there any timings to hit? replay: http://drop.sc/360345 | ||
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KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
Your build was poorly executed - robo was late (should start at 5:35-5:50) and you also kept it idle for a while once it completed, natural gases too (should start at 6:30? not sure but 8:00 is clearly really late). As a result, your all-in was late and especially weak. You had 1 sentry and 2 immortals at 11:20, you should have had much more sentries and 4 immortals at that time. You can't do literally anything with only 1 sentry; you could have been crushed by a zerg who droned up to 75 but for some reason your opponent stopped at 45 so you weren't even behind after recalling home. Your mistakes then were that you didn't build continously probes and you went for a nonsense push. You just took your third base and you saw your opponent had a huge roach/hydra army, why move out? You could get a prism and harass with it if you wanted to put some pressure. You had to tech up to something anyway- immortals + tier 1 gateway units can work until about 11-12 minutes, but not later. As soon as your attack was fended off you had to either build a robo bay or templar archives, instead your archons arrive only at 19 minutes. The only reason why you were able to pick some engagement at first was because you were 2/1 against 0/0. | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On September 24 2013 03:31 Teoita wrote: Yeah you have to produce colossi non stop these days imo. You can cut colossi at 3-4 for a quicker storm. Unless your opponent went for a wildly faster third, the production they'd receive from three base saturation wouldn't finish in time before storm would be out with a 3 base SCV pull. | ||
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KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
On September 24 2013 04:42 rd wrote: You can cut colossi at 3-4 for a quicker storm. Unless your opponent went for a wildly faster third, the production they'd receive from three base saturation wouldn't finish in time before storm would be out with a 3 base SCV pull. Nearly everyone gets storm after 3 colossi, scv pulls are designed to kill that. | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On September 24 2013 04:49 KingAlphard wrote: Nearly everyone gets storm after 3 colossi, scv pulls are designed to kill that. Nearly everyone I watch goes past 3 colossi. The storm will barely finish in time unless the Terran went for a faster than normal third. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12247 Posts
@Alphard: play against Fatalerror, you'll change your mind about cannons >.> | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On September 24 2013 06:37 Teoita wrote: You can NOT try to get storm and cut colossi vs scv pulls. That's the best way to die to them. I don't care if you cut at 3 or 4, if you do cut in ANY way you die (not sure about the old 2colo>faster storm build though, but i suspect you would also die). Get storm as you can afford it, but not at the cost of zealot charge, a good stalker count, more colossi, upgrades and if necessary/possible archons. @Alphard: play against Fatalerror, you'll change your mind about cannons >.> The fast storm only cuts the fourth colossi, assuming you've gotten a 9:30-10:00 third and saturated the gasses immediately. edit: and I double forge, which makes no difference on the gas constraints for getting high templar with other upgrades, but I have 2/2 done/very close in time for it, as opposed to just 1/2; really depends on how greedy the Terran was. | ||
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KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
On September 24 2013 06:33 rd wrote: Nearly everyone I watch goes past 3 colossi. The storm will barely finish in time unless the Terran went for a faster than normal third. I also cut the 4th colossus to get storm and I die to scv pulls that hit before i have storm finished anyway. I agree with you that such a push isn't as strong as it could be because the terran player saturated his 3 bases not a while before, but it still works. | ||
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.kv
United States2332 Posts
On September 24 2013 06:37 Teoita wrote: You can NOT try to get storm and cut colossi vs scv pulls. That's the best way to die to them. I don't care if you cut at 3 or 4, if you do cut in ANY way you die (not sure about the old 2colo>faster storm build though, but i suspect you would also die). Get storm as you can afford it, but not at the cost of zealot charge, a good stalker count, more colossi, upgrades and if necessary/possible archons. @Alphard: play against Fatalerror, you'll change your mind about cannons >.> you actually cut colossi (after 2) for a small bit to get storm and want to do that...when it comes down to scv pulls it comes down to storms...the more you have the better you are so instead of making that colossus, you make a warp prism since it's only minerals...you then start colossus random rep of just "rain-esque standard pvt play" http://www.mediafire.com/?l723upf3tj54223 i tell him before storm but unfortunately for him there is no window b/c you can't get enough vikings out on time and be across the map before storm you should constantly chronoboost storm if you see a super fast 2nd starport and you will be fine with ff and time warp | ||
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Mertz
United States11 Posts
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KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
On September 26 2013 01:24 Mertz wrote: Hey I am having a really hard time figuring out what I am suppose to chronoboost. Currently I have focused all of my chrono on the my nexi till they are all 24/24 and 3/3, then I switch to my forges. However I tend to get over saturated before I am ready to take a 3rd base, maybe I should take an earlier 3rd? Or should I focus my chrono on robo or gateways? It's really not that simple. Assuming you want to play passive macro, it still depends on what your opponent wants to do. If you always chrono probes and your opponent cuts workers early for a 2 base all in you are going to die most of the times. So, if you scout an all in, you should focus on chronoboosting production facilities and/or upgrades that you can finish in time. Also, once you have 45-50 probes it's not that efficient to chronoboost probes anymore (unless you are taking a very fast third base) because past that number they don't give you a lot of additional income, so I usually switch to chronoboosting upgrades and important units like colossi. If you are over saturated before you take a third base, yes you're probably taking it too late. Fast expand build usually reach 60 probes at around 10 minutes, so you should be taking your third around that timing if you haven't been pressured. But it always depends on what your opponent is doing. | ||
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On September 26 2013 02:12 KingAlphard wrote: It's really not that simple. Assuming you want to play passive macro, it still depends on what your opponent wants to do. If you always chrono probes and your opponent cuts workers early for a 2 base all in you are going to die most of the times. So, if you scout an all in, you should focus on chronoboosting production facilities and/or upgrades that you can finish in time. Also, once you have 45-50 probes it's not that efficient to chronoboost probes anymore (unless you are taking a very fast third base) because past that number they don't give you a lot of additional income, so I usually switch to chronoboosting upgrades and important units like colossi. If you are over saturated before you take a third base, yes you're probably taking it too late. Fast expand build usually reach 60 probes at around 10 minutes, so you should be taking your third around that timing if you haven't been pressured. But it always depends on what your opponent is doing. In my experience, the way taking a 3rd for protoss goes is: if you're trying to defend pressure or get certain tech structures out (i.e. defending the 10-minute timing attack PvT), you cut probes and focus on those things until you're safe. Once you can take your 3rd and you know you can defend it, you start probe production again. Continually making probes is actually counterproductive when you start to get into higher levels of play. As far as chronoboost goes, you should only use it to get 16/24 probes on each base and afterwards spend the rest of it on forge/twilight upgrades as well as storm/colossus. When you attack, you generally have a lot of chronoboost saved up (I don't know why this is, it's just the way the game seems to work out) so you should dump it all into your warpgates. There are, of course, several exceptions to these rules, but for the most part it's just: chronoboost probes until 2-base saturation, chronoboost tech and defend, then chronoboost warpgates when tech finishes and attack. | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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nath
United States1788 Posts
hands are slow so brain is fast? (not insulting, thats how i feel LOL...played terran until my speed got capped which is depressing) switched to P and all this material made me re-evaluate how i was learning and approaching the game, since i wasn't doing any of this optimally. im definitely a way better player now. | ||
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