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On August 29 2013 20:37 Nyast wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2013 07:42 megapants wrote:
your best bet to defend properly is to simply know what it's coming a few minutes before it comes. the timing is critical for defense since that is how you know where to best position your few units.
the first sign that terran might do this sort of play is if you scout no reaper and gas mining. obviously he's going to go factory tech. if terran doesn't go reaper and gets factory before reactor, he can produce 4 hellions at your front as early as 6 minutes. you can evacuate your probes from the natura - or don't transfer any over from your main in the first place if you don't feel confident enough to risk it for those ~30 seconds of mining time - just before this timing and leave one at the ramp to place down a pylon wall off to prevent him from getting up the ramp. softening up the hellions with whatever units you have out during this defense is key to holding off the next wave more easily.
if you already committed to robotics, then you should definitely get a forge out quickly after to get cannons to deal with the medivac followup. this also lets you get way ahead on upgrades, since terran is obviously investing a lot of gas to do this attack. if you knew this attack was coming before committing to robo, i would suggest delaying robo for forge first - since timing alone should be enough know when this attack should be coming without needed observers to spot - and then get your robo so you can get even further ahead in upgrades. this is also an ok response to cloak banshee, so it's a bit of a catch all if he decided to go for that follow up. but going robo first is fine since having observers around your bases is helpful for dealing with that multipronged harrass.
you could also delay robo until after you get additional gateway, assuming you know he's doing this hellion play, in order to set up a big counterattack or to get more units out to take a really fast third nexus if you manage to actually kill off most or all of his units, but thats really risky and will have a hard time against widow mine or cloak banshee follow ups.
it's acceptable to have probe losses if you go for a 4-5 minute nexus vs this play since you'll be getting so many rounds of probe production in comparison to them - they likely aren't going to be even mining off their second base til like 8 minutes, much less producing a lot of workers. i think an important part to feeling confident holding this attack off is whether or not you got your tech out before you took too many losses. like, even if he gets 10 worker kills, if you already started your robo and forge, you're going to be at least even, as long as you actually KILL the attack, since they seriously delayed their mid game to deal this much damage.
hope that was helpful Thanks for the advice but unfortunately I don't find it that helpful  Scouting it coming is usually not the problem. The problem is that however I react, I'm playing behind. Even if I limit the damage to my probes line, I've been forced to warp a shitton of stalkers which later completely suck in the mid game. Here are two examples of recent games: 1. Guy goes mass helions, no drops, but there are enough helions running in my natural that I just can't avoid to lose half my probes. Meanwhile he goes for greedy play / fast third into mech. Disregard the rest of the game, at 10' he has killed 20 probes, the game is over already: http://drop.sc/3560622. How I typically defend the early harass but lose the game right after. Around 8'30 I lose 24 probes, due to a runby in my natural followed by a drop 4 helions in my main. Despite scouting that it's coming at 4'45 with my probe ( I saw the factory + reactor ). http://drop.sc/356063
hi again, watched the second replay, here's my thoughts:
first i'd like to say that your opponent's build is, in fact, a pretty good opening vs the standard msc expo right now, especially on a 4 player map where you're likely to already commit to the nexus before scouting his build, like you did in this game.
however, i think you did make some mistakes, particularly after scouting him. you hadn't committed to any tech when you scouted his starport and reactor factory, yet you still went for robo on 1 gateway and never dropped down a forge. i think this is a mistake - especially once you scouted he was building more than 4 hellions. your only goal vs this attack is to minimize probe losses while maximizing damage to his hellions, and building cannons near your probes is a great way to do this without having to build stalkers. if you dont want to build cannons and want to defend with stalkers instead, you need to have better vision, which you should have considering you went such a fast robo! :D but basically, your opponent stuck his hand into the cookie jar while you weren't looking, which is another reason why cannons can help you defend without having to worry about positioning your units.
but probably the biggest issue i had with this game is that your probe production was fairly weak. you should have had around 10 more probes when that attack caught you (accounting for other probes lost before this attack), meaning you would have not only had more money sooner for more units and defense, but would also be in a much better position should you not be paying attention and lose more probes than you'd like.
hope that advice was more helpful, good luck in future games man
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On August 30 2013 17:40 megapants wrote:
hi again, watched the second replay, here's my thoughts:
first i'd like to say that your opponent's build is, in fact, a pretty good opening vs the standard msc expo right now, especially on a 4 player map where you're likely to already commit to the nexus before scouting his build, like you did in this game.
however, i think you did make some mistakes, particularly after scouting him. you hadn't committed to any tech when you scouted his starport and reactor factory, yet you still went for robo on 1 gateway and never dropped down a forge. i think this is a mistake - especially once you scouted he was building more than 4 hellions. your only goal vs this attack is to minimize probe losses while maximizing damage to his hellions, and building cannons near your probes is a great way to do this without having to build stalkers. if you dont want to build cannons and want to defend with stalkers instead, you need to have better vision, which you should have considering you went such a fast robo! :D but basically, your opponent stuck his hand into the cookie jar while you weren't looking, which is another reason why cannons can help you defend without having to worry about positioning your units.
but probably the biggest issue i had with this game is that your probe production was fairly weak. you should have had around 10 more probes when that attack caught you (accounting for other probes lost before this attack), meaning you would have not only had more money sooner for more units and defense, but would also be in a much better position should you not be paying attention and lose more probes than you'd like.
hope that advice was more helpful, good luck in future games man
Cool, thanks, I'll add a forge asap when I scout it now, and I'll make sure my macro doesn't slip
I'm still not sure what the follow-up should be though. Teching to colossus asap ? Or getting a lot of gates ?
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Does anyone have the PvZ build Parting used vs Soulkey in WCS? I remember it was 1 gate FE into zealot core pressure and then 3 gate zealot pressure with many sentries at home. The opening has been working great for me but I can' t remember Parting's follow-up.
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United States4883 Posts
On August 30 2013 18:46 Nyast wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2013 17:40 megapants wrote:
hi again, watched the second replay, here's my thoughts:
first i'd like to say that your opponent's build is, in fact, a pretty good opening vs the standard msc expo right now, especially on a 4 player map where you're likely to already commit to the nexus before scouting his build, like you did in this game.
however, i think you did make some mistakes, particularly after scouting him. you hadn't committed to any tech when you scouted his starport and reactor factory, yet you still went for robo on 1 gateway and never dropped down a forge. i think this is a mistake - especially once you scouted he was building more than 4 hellions. your only goal vs this attack is to minimize probe losses while maximizing damage to his hellions, and building cannons near your probes is a great way to do this without having to build stalkers. if you dont want to build cannons and want to defend with stalkers instead, you need to have better vision, which you should have considering you went such a fast robo! :D but basically, your opponent stuck his hand into the cookie jar while you weren't looking, which is another reason why cannons can help you defend without having to worry about positioning your units.
but probably the biggest issue i had with this game is that your probe production was fairly weak. you should have had around 10 more probes when that attack caught you (accounting for other probes lost before this attack), meaning you would have not only had more money sooner for more units and defense, but would also be in a much better position should you not be paying attention and lose more probes than you'd like.
hope that advice was more helpful, good luck in future games man
Cool, thanks, I'll add a forge asap when I scout it now, and I'll make sure my macro doesn't slip I'm still not sure what the follow-up should be though. Teching to colossus asap ? Or getting a lot of gates ?
Like I said in my post, it's just a re-ordering of your gateways and forge. You can followup in whatever way you want. Most common followups are:
robo bay -> colossus/blink (@~9:00 add 3 gates)
twilight -> charge/templar (@~9:00 add 4 gates)
twilight -> charge/DT/warp prism (@~9:00 add 4 gates)
It's pretty straightforward from there.
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Why can't protoss play the same style as Terran vs Z where you non-stop attack them throughout the whole game?
Since Protoss/Terran can make workers and combat units at the same time and Zerg cannot, wouldn't it be good to just keep trading all game while you grow your econ and Zerg stays limited (that's what Terran does). Is it lack of early game AOE? (hellions, widow mines)? Or is it the mobility?
Just curious if anyone has ideas why this isn't viable since we never see it. I'm getting tired of playing "deathball" Protoss. I'm high Diamond Protoss and I usually find myself doing FFE into Phoenix into 3 base deathball -____-. Some WP harass here and there but still.. its boring.
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can't because protoss basic units are complete trash in this game. 1 base play can work if they guess wrong on what you are doing but that's hardly a good way to play. one spore in each mineral line stops dt/phoenix play off 1 base and spines stop any 4 gate or whatever off 1 base.
What you are looking for is something like how herO plays or something. where he sends zealot/stalker/core really early to force units from the zerg
and yea protoss is a boring race in sc2, not much to say there. if you find yourself getting bored switch races for a bit.
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On August 31 2013 04:09 DinoMight wrote:
Why can't protoss play the same style as Terran vs Z where you non-stop attack them throughout the whole game?
Since Protoss/Terran can make workers and combat units at the same time and Zerg cannot, wouldn't it be good to just keep trading all game while you grow your econ and Zerg stays limited (that's what Terran does). Is it lack of early game AOE? (hellions, widow mines)? Or is it the mobility?
Just curious if anyone has ideas why this isn't viable since we never see it. I'm getting tired of playing "deathball" Protoss. I'm high Diamond Protoss and I usually find myself doing FFE into Phoenix into 3 base deathball -____-. Some WP harass here and there but still.. its boring.
your gateway units just aren't as good or as cheap relative to zerg's units, whereas barracks units are not only comparatively cheap but can trade up in resources and only get better at doing that as the game goes on. however, the way i see it, the less your zealots and stalkers are either shooting or getting shot at over the course of their lifespan, the more wasted those resources spent on them become. because of this, players either like to delay them for AS LONG as possible or simply try to trade them off for a fast win. i think these methods have their strengths, but the biggest problem with these styles to me is they are kind of predictable and static, kind of betting on your opponent have an improper response.
i think that chargelot/archon/storm with either immortals or blink stalkers is a really fun style in all matchups. it's the most proactive army composition in my experience in terms of map control and positioning - it's much easier to contest the middle of the map, which means you can expand beyond 3 bases much more aggressively if you manage your warpgates right. 2 base 6-8 gateway zealot archon lets you take back map control vs those pesky bio units just parking right outside your bases, and once you get out into the middle of the map, you can start harassing instead of waiting around for your near max army to move out.
basically, 3 base mass void or stalker/colossus is not a good style if you like to punish mistakes. chargelot/templar is a great way to get in someone's face and see which one of you has what it takes to come out ahead.
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Italy12247 Posts
Terran attacking constantly in TvZ isn't to keep the zerg from droning. In fact, the first push terrans do with 1/1 hits when the z has already over 60 drones and is making his first round of muta/ling/bling.
That said, protoss units are the most expensive out of every race, so they are also harder to replace. Additionally, it's really hard to retreat from speedlings or stimmed bio For that reason alone it's hard if not impossible to constantly keep trading them.
It's possible to do things like recall-heavy PvZ (like what parting tried vs soulkey) or PvT with constant harassment (see the templar guide i just published), but protoss units just are not designed like bio where you can split them up in small groups and attack all over the place. That's just never going to work because of the design of the race.
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if they give us dragoons instead of stalkers it might be a possibility...but of course no more blink and we would have to change a lot of stuff
i really hate stalkers LOL
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I was watching Hero stream today. I found his mechanics and multitasking just astonishing. There were moments when I couldn't even tell how he was doing stuff.
Now I'm watching Grubby stream and... Hero is just a league above him. Isn't even funny how better he is. How better he is in comparison to any other protoss streamer.
Then I was thinking and came to this conclusion: before anything, you have to improve your mechanics. Its the most important factor of this game. If your mechanics suck, you'll just waste time discussing builds, and strategies and such.
Do you guys agree? Anyway, mechanics is a wide concept. As far as I know, it concerns to how you input actions into the game. In what I should focus to master it? Besides the common things that all we know, watching Hero playing I came to this three things:
1 - Screen hotkeys. You should never screen scroll with mouse.
2 - Hotkey each unit in the moment you build it.
3 - Keep moving your army nonstop (wisely).
Do you guys agree that I have to do this three thing if I want play this game how it meant to be played?
Sry for the "off topic post", guys. This thread is the best place that I know to discuss stuff and I feel comfortable with people here.
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Italy12247 Posts
"Mechanics" is really wide. There's a lot of things that someone could practice. Except for what you said, i'd inlude:
1) Always watch the minimap
2) Your actions should be "fast". Queuing zealots to runby and harass an expo, send a prism in his main, build probes, focus buildings or workers with units you are harassing with. Someone with good mechanics will be quick and precise in his mouse movements. I remember being astonished at Babyknight because while harassing a Zerg main with a warp prism, he was able to shift click several buildings insanely fast.
3) Obviously, good macro.
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On August 31 2013 07:53 Teoita wrote:
"Mechanics" is really wide. There's a lot of things that someone could practice. Except for what you said, i'd inlude:
1) Always watch the minimap
2) Your actions should be "fast". Queuing zealots to runby and harass an expo, send a prism in his main, build probes, focus buildings or workers with units you are harassing with. Someone with good mechanics will be quick and precise in his mouse movements. I remember being astonished at Babyknight because while harassing a Zerg main with a warp prism, he was able to shift click several buildings insanely fast.
3) Obviously, good macro.
I'll add the minimap awareness to my priorities. Well said.
But I just realized today. People talk about a lot of stuff, but if your mechanics suck you'll play sub optimally no matter what. You'll be wasting your time (if want improve, of course) doing right things in the wrong way.
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Maxed out spooky mech. 10 ghosts 10tanks and 15 thors maybe even more. What is my ideal composition? Are tempest a must have here?
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On August 31 2013 12:59 jcroisdale wrote:
Maxed out spooky mech. 10 ghosts 10tanks and 15 thors maybe even more. What is my ideal composition? Are tempest a must have here?
I'd imagine a ton of immortals would be pretty good o.O
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against thors you want immortals and against tanks you want tempests, so scout and see what he has and get more of whatever accordingly. When maxed out late game immortals are actually pretty terrible against tanks. They are so slow that they just all get shot down by siege mode before they even do anything. due to EMP.
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On August 31 2013 08:23 Tiaraju9 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2013 07:53 Teoita wrote:
"Mechanics" is really wide. There's a lot of things that someone could practice. Except for what you said, i'd inlude:
1) Always watch the minimap
2) Your actions should be "fast". Queuing zealots to runby and harass an expo, send a prism in his main, build probes, focus buildings or workers with units you are harassing with. Someone with good mechanics will be quick and precise in his mouse movements. I remember being astonished at Babyknight because while harassing a Zerg main with a warp prism, he was able to shift click several buildings insanely fast.
3) Obviously, good macro. I'll add the minimap awareness to my priorities. Well said. But I just realized today. People talk about a lot of stuff, but if your mechanics suck you'll play sub optimally no matter what. You'll be wasting your time (if want improve, of course) doing right things in the wrong way.
strategy is a pretty big part of having good mechanics though. if you don't know truly know what you want to, or are supposed to be, doing, you'll have less optimal decision making which makes for less optimal clicking.
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Italy12247 Posts
Yeah against super lategame mech stuff with lots of ghosts you want tempest/templar, immortals just get blown to pieces if he gets to EMP all of them.
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2 questions:
Anyone feel like PvP becoming a coinflip matchup again?
Early scout with mothership core, good or no?
edit: in PvZ, is transition to robo/ colosi better than twilight/storm after stargate open?
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Canada13410 Posts
On August 31 2013 21:32 iLevitate wrote:
2 questions:
Anyone feel like PvP becoming a coinflip matchup again?
Early scout with mothership core, good or no?
edit: in PvZ, is transition to robo/ colosi better than twilight/storm after stargate open?
Early scout with core can be very risky depending on the map and your build vs his build. If you are teching relatively fast you want to keep the core at home. If your opponent opens aggressively he is more likely to kill your core or force a recall, and if you are teching fast/greedy you will lose to the aggressive opening without overcharge.
If you are opening single tech or with a sentry I think mocore scout is fine depending on map and route. You want to get there quickly but not show the core anywhere it can't escape to high ground or open air and return home safe. I do it with a blink build and a robo build but never for my DT or Stargate builds. And I haven't played much this season on new maps because I'm moving so I'm not sure if I want to keep doing it or on what maps ATM.
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Hi guys, I'm an old dude playing Protoss and bouncing somewhere between gold and platinum. I don't have the feeling I'm improving anymore, and my mechanics are lacking here and there. Is there a training thingy I can do to get me to do stuff automatically (again) ?
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EPT
