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Italy12246 Posts
You are confusing two different builds.
The 5rax before third is just a strong midgame aggression build, which gets stopped by simply defending drops and frontal pushes correctly; it's normal pvt play. The better player wins.
SCV all-ins against colossus openers are another beast altogether, and they are unrelated to Bomber's build. In fact, many times the best way to scv allin like that is to go 15cc into 3cc, to speed up and strengthen the allin as much as possible.
You (usually) won't have storm (or, enough storms) in time so you NEED to get an absoultely immaculate engagement. If necessary, pull back your probes and sac your third to buy time for more units. Build wise, the only adapation made recently is to go up to 4/5 colossi and/or delay storm to have archons against such a push. There isn't much to do that isn't "play better and macro perfectly, while having a great engagement".
Alternatively, you could try 2base templar play. Templar first builds are less susceptible to scv pulls because templar are harder to negate, and stronger defensively. With colossus you reach a point in time when a good viking count is more or less enought o just amove through your army. Templar on the other hand allow more opportunities for outmicroing and/or outplaying your opponent, allowing for more comeback opportunities. Of course, the downside is that they are also more unforgiving for you as well.
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In pvz, how much damage should I do to Zerg if I open with phenix?
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On August 30 2013 01:33 Teoita wrote:isn't much to do that isn't "play better and macro perfectly, while having a great engagement".
Yeah, that's why it's so frustrating :/
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Italy12246 Posts
About 1kish resources, but tbh that's kinda debatable.
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On August 30 2013 01:52 OPDream wrote:
In pvz, how much damage should I do to Zerg if I open with phenix?
You should aim for 1000 minerals worth of damage.
Overlords and drones you kill and spores that you force him to make all count.
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On August 30 2013 01:57 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2013 01:33 Teoita wrote:isn't much to do that isn't "play better and macro perfectly, while having a great engagement". Yeah, that's why it's so frustrating :/
yeah but its (90%) just as hard for the terran at this point in the game, and the terran loses after they fail to kill/cripple you (much much less than 50% chance for them after this point in the game). when i play PvT (2 base templar with 1-2 collo) the mentality is just so much better, i can barely survive the midgame and stomp later while playing defensively, TvP is hellish because you have a few chances to do major damage then no matter what you have to severely outplay them. i have much much less stress on the P side of the matchup, which allows me to be as precise as P has to be to survive. (one misclick will lose you games). so i just think you shouldn't be so frustrated by that hand. i also dont think its imbalanced.
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i'm the opposite, I find TvP easy as hell. A good drop or two and you win. Also the fact that stimmed marauders are so fast greatly annoys me as they can snipe nexuses in 2-3 seconds. this season I have 75+ % in pvp and pvz but 24% in pvt...been stuck at diamond 1 forever T_T
wish it was like BW where I could racepick haha. I would even rather play TvT then PvT
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Any tips for Warp Prism micro? I always find myself moving the mouse cursor to the command box, which I know is not very efficient. How do I drop a unit while not stopping the Prism's movement? Anybody have any other shortcuts that could help me? 
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On August 30 2013 04:50 HelpMeGetBetter wrote:Any tips for Warp Prism micro? I always find myself moving the mouse cursor to the command box, which I know is not very efficient. How do I drop a unit while not stopping the Prism's movement? Anybody have any other shortcuts that could help me?
Only way to learn to use the warp prism is to force yourself to hit the hotkeys. To drop units while moving the warp prism, send the warp prism on a move command, hit d, then click select the warp prism itself. Another tip would be to use the warp prism to warp-in four units and load them in before actually sending the warp prism into a base.
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On August 30 2013 04:50 HelpMeGetBetter wrote:Any tips for Warp Prism micro? I always find myself moving the mouse cursor to the command box, which I know is not very efficient. How do I drop a unit while not stopping the Prism's movement? Anybody have any other shortcuts that could help me?
Usually for warp prism harass I use D to unload the units and right click to pick them up. If you press D and then click on the warp prism while its moving it will unload units as it moves. This is great for dropping zealots in a mineral line and whatnot.
If you want to pracitce this you can actually do it with the StarCraft Master Medivac/Tank vs 3 stalkers level. The controls are exactly the same for the medivac.
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On August 30 2013 02:07 nath wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2013 01:57 DinoMight wrote:On August 30 2013 01:33 Teoita wrote:isn't much to do that isn't "play better and macro perfectly, while having a great engagement". Yeah, that's why it's so frustrating :/ yeah but its (90%) just as hard for the terran at this point in the game, and the terran loses after they fail to kill/cripple you (much much less than 50% chance for them after this point in the game). when i play PvT (2 base templar with 1-2 collo) the mentality is just so much better, i can barely survive the midgame and stomp later while playing defensively, TvP is hellish because you have a few chances to do major damage then no matter what you have to severely outplay them. i have much much less stress on the P side of the matchup, which allows me to be as precise as P has to be to survive. (one misclick will lose you games). so i just think you shouldn't be so frustrated by that hand. i also dont think its imbalanced.
Lol nobody said anything about imba. It's just really hard to stop if done correctly.
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Can anyone guide me on how to do the Void Ray, Colossus, Storm composition?
I am a high diamond player on EU, and i feel so bad by not making this work. I have strebbled in pvz since the beginning of hots, and wanted to try this build that is supposed to be really strong.
What i need to know is :
-how to squeeze in harass, since voids are really expensive
-how many stargates, and when do i add them?
-Do i ever stop making void rays or do i hard transition at some point?
-when do i take a third?
-How do i prioritize the balance between air and ground upgrades?
-When would i optimally take a 4th?
-when do i transition to colossus?
-When should i add in High templars?
-The optimal opening BO?
-How to fight common compositions vs this
VODs and BOs would be great
Thanks in advance
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Italy12246 Posts
That is way too generic. There's a LOT of ways to get there, you are basically asking "how to get a great 4 base army in pvz".
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Well i just thought it was a solid BO for this, since its so popular especially with the korean tosses. i dont really know how else to describe it, cause i dont really know how to start. Its so different from what i have done so far in hots
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United States4883 Posts
On August 29 2013 23:22 Nyast wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2013 22:56 SC2John wrote:On August 29 2013 20:37 Nyast wrote:On August 29 2013 07:42 megapants wrote:
your best bet to defend properly is to simply know what it's coming a few minutes before it comes. the timing is critical for defense since that is how you know where to best position your few units.
the first sign that terran might do this sort of play is if you scout no reaper and gas mining. obviously he's going to go factory tech. if terran doesn't go reaper and gets factory before reactor, he can produce 4 hellions at your front as early as 6 minutes. you can evacuate your probes from the natura - or don't transfer any over from your main in the first place if you don't feel confident enough to risk it for those ~30 seconds of mining time - just before this timing and leave one at the ramp to place down a pylon wall off to prevent him from getting up the ramp. softening up the hellions with whatever units you have out during this defense is key to holding off the next wave more easily.
if you already committed to robotics, then you should definitely get a forge out quickly after to get cannons to deal with the medivac followup. this also lets you get way ahead on upgrades, since terran is obviously investing a lot of gas to do this attack. if you knew this attack was coming before committing to robo, i would suggest delaying robo for forge first - since timing alone should be enough know when this attack should be coming without needed observers to spot - and then get your robo so you can get even further ahead in upgrades. this is also an ok response to cloak banshee, so it's a bit of a catch all if he decided to go for that follow up. but going robo first is fine since having observers around your bases is helpful for dealing with that multipronged harrass.
you could also delay robo until after you get additional gateway, assuming you know he's doing this hellion play, in order to set up a big counterattack or to get more units out to take a really fast third nexus if you manage to actually kill off most or all of his units, but thats really risky and will have a hard time against widow mine or cloak banshee follow ups.
it's acceptable to have probe losses if you go for a 4-5 minute nexus vs this play since you'll be getting so many rounds of probe production in comparison to them - they likely aren't going to be even mining off their second base til like 8 minutes, much less producing a lot of workers. i think an important part to feeling confident holding this attack off is whether or not you got your tech out before you took too many losses. like, even if he gets 10 worker kills, if you already started your robo and forge, you're going to be at least even, as long as you actually KILL the attack, since they seriously delayed their mid game to deal this much damage.
hope that was helpful Thanks for the advice but unfortunately I don't find it that helpful Scouting it coming is usually not the problem. The problem is that however I react, I'm playing behind. Even if I limit the damage to my probes line, I've been forced to warp a shitton of stalkers which later completely suck in the mid game. Here are two examples of recent games: 1. Guy goes mass helions, no drops, but there are enough helions running in my natural that I just can't avoid to lose half my probes. Meanwhile he goes for greedy play / fast third into mech. Disregard the rest of the game, at 10' he has killed 20 probes, the game is over already: http://drop.sc/3560622. How I typically defend the early harass but lose the game right after. Around 8'30 I lose 24 probes, due to a runby in my natural followed by a drop 4 helions in my main. Despite scouting that it's coming at 4'45 with my probe ( I saw the factory + reactor ). http://drop.sc/356063 1. BAHAHAHAHAHAHA, you actually tell the dude how to kill you hahahahahaha. Okay, first thing, you have a really fucking weird build lol. It's like 11 probe scout then a zealot with a delayed pylon (25 instead of 23) then you don't make a sentry until 5:10 despite having over 200 gas. I don't know if you intend for all of these things, but nothing lines up and nothing makes sense with your opening. I suggest you learn one of these builds. Next thing, you need to be more on top of your forcefields. Next thing, that amount of stalkers is completely unnecessary; if you need extra DPS, put down a cannon. That, along with generally bad crisis management has put you so behind that you can never win. Your first observer is out at 9:00, you never take both natural gases, and then you put down a colossus bay, build a warp prism, take a 3rd, and THEN build a colossus. Why? 2. The build is this game makes much more sense. I think, however, if you're planning to do a MsC expand, you should attempt to scout later, especially on a 4-player map. The reason for gateway scouting is that you can generally get up your opponent's ramp before a wall goes down; on 4-player maps, however, you have a fairly low chance of that, so you might as well just scout after core and get the same information while saving some minerals. Again, you face the problem of having too many stalkers and no cannons; build an early forge and put cannons down instead of wasting so gas on stalkers. Basically, you're builds are looking a little sloppy and unrefined, and as a result, dealing with something like this is uglier than it needs to be. Holding the initial hellions shouldn't be that hard. As for dealing with mass hellions, just make AN immortal; they work wonders. Against an opening like this, you can build 3 immortals and then just immortal bust ftw (because he won't have enough units to fill the bunkers). Sidenote: don't delay your robo like that post above was talking about, that's a bad idea. 1. It was my 4th or 5th loss against helions so I was testing new things. Yeah, the build didn't make sense 2. That was an older game and closer to my standard build. When should I drop the forge then ? As soon as I scout helions ? Should I stay on 1 gate longer ?
If you look at the builds I posted, both get an early forge before extra gates. This is kind of the "build du jour" right now; you basically just switch the timings of the forge and extra gateways, relying on nexus cannon to defend any kind of frontal aggression. You can go single forge or double forge depending on how greedy you want to be (I generally just stick to single forge to be safe). With the fast single forge, you start +1 armor REALLY early so that +1/+1 is still done at about the same time as it would be with a normally timed double forge. So, to recap: either 1-gate or MsC expand, then robo -> forge -> resume probe production -> natural gases -> gateway x2 (@7:00).
With one gateway, I generally get out 1-2 stalkers and 2 sentries, then warp in either a stalker or sentry once warp gate is finished. Along with a cannon defense, you should be able to defend any kind of really early drop aggression as well as set you up well for the midgame.
Getting cannons is something that you start to figure out later on...but my general rule is that if you see an early starport (or at least deduce that your opponent is going for fast drops), you should build cannons.
So...hope this helps! And good luck with the hellions! Hellions and banshees are a bitch to deal with hahaha!
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Hi I've been playing BW before switching to SC2 .
I wanna ask that is it alright for zerg to be one base ahead of protoss , and should protoss be one base ahead of terran just like it is in BW ?
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Zerg should ALWAYS have one more base than P and T. It is not common to be one base ahead in PvT (although it would be nice, but it's not standard gameplay since it's hard to defend and very risky ).
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On August 30 2013 08:10 hersimp wrote:
Can anyone guide me on how to do the Void Ray, Colossus, Storm composition?
I am a high diamond player on EU, and i feel so bad by not making this work. I have strebbled in pvz since the beginning of hots, and wanted to try this build that is supposed to be really strong.
What i need to know is :
-how to squeeze in harass, since voids are really expensive
-how many stargates, and when do i add them?
-Do i ever stop making void rays or do i hard transition at some point?
-when do i take a third?
-How do i prioritize the balance between air and ground upgrades?
-When would i optimally take a 4th?
-when do i transition to colossus?
-When should i add in High templars?
-The optimal opening BO?
-How to fight common compositions vs this
VODs and BOs would be great
Thanks in advance
Builds imo should now be called openers b/c that's the only ones people can actually follow (supply-wise)
Compositions are different...you can open up with nexus/forge/gateway fe and just find a way to that composition you want (void/colo/ht)...it's a style
anyways you get 3 bases somehow and have 1 robo and 2 stargates...you add in storm while you are setting up a 4th
but for most of your questions..it varies on the game you are playing itself...just ask yourself...is it safe to add a stargate/to expand now/to get colo/to get ht/etc...it's going to take a lot of trial and error to get this game knowledge or if you don't wish to invest THAT much time into figuring it out, you will have to ask for coaching from a high masters/gm player that can help you speed up that process for you.
edit: you can watch my vods since void/colo is pretty much what i do in pvz http://twitch.tv/flatlinesc2
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On August 30 2013 01:10 DinoMight wrote:
Hey guys. Question (and pardon my french because I'm a bit annoyed):
How. THE FUCK. Does one stop the "Bomber build?"
The one where he goes 5 rax before taking a 3rd and then pulls his SCVS and GGYOLOSWAG 1TA before you can get storm out?
Grubby and First both got annihilated by it, and now I'm seeing it on ladder a lot and getting pwned pretty hard.
High Diamond Protoss here.
watch some rain vods...the people that can't get storm out on time are the ones who aren't switching to storm on time
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On August 30 2013 01:52 OPDream wrote:
In pvz, how much damage should I do to Zerg if I open with phenix?
There are builds with only one phoenix. You can normally kill 2-3 overlords and you will probably force him into making at least 3 spores. Thats also a possibility (some zerg even overreact and go into hydras which you can easily counter with a fast colossus tech).
It is absolutely crucial to keep your phoenixes alive. Don let them die!!! Even when zerg has stabilized and fortified his position, dont just suicide them into his army or spores. You can use them later on to left infestors, queens and stuff.
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EPT
