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The HotS Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 166

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders.
IIUrsakarII
Profile Joined August 2013
9 Posts
August 28 2013 09:36 GMT
#3301
ok thx i ll do it a bit later, I'm currently at work T_T
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
August 28 2013 09:47 GMT
#3302
Ok so, regarding walls, i played around a bit and here's what i came up with.

Frost is absolutely standard:
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


And so is Polar Night, surprisingly. Both the gaps near the pylon are probe-tight, which means they are also ling-tight. There's no space next to the forge:
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

[image loading]


Yeonsu on the other hand is kind of a bitch. You have a few possiblities, but none of them are optimal.
First off, you can wall off a little farther ahead, with 3 buildings as well as a pylon. It's kind of a mix between Daybreak and Shattered Temple. It looks pretty wide but as you can see from the first screenshot, i tested it and it's probe tight. I hope.
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

[image loading]

Alternatively, you can use your nexus as a wall and later complete it. The open gap on the right between the nexus and the gateway is one hex wide, so you can block it off with a zealot:
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

Finally, you can use 2 pylons and 2 buildings. I would recommend this only if gateway expanding, i wouldn't feel confortable walling like that with a FFE cuz baneling busts:
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
Kinon
Profile Joined October 2012
Romania207 Posts
August 28 2013 15:10 GMT
#3303
Is the third base on frost dependent on where the opponent spawns? I played a PvT on it, I spawned at P8, he spawned at T4, and I took the third closer to him (not the north one). My fear was that the other possibile third is to vulnerable to drops and flanking. How are you guys dealing with it?
Nyast
Profile Joined November 2010
Belgium554 Posts
August 28 2013 17:38 GMT
#3304
I have two tricky questions regarding PvT:

1. Should I send the MScore to scout ? I'm afraid that if I send it and see incoming helions, I will not have the time to come back home to defend it.

2. If I scout a fast factory / helions, how do I defend it ? Even when I know it's coming, I lose probes. Often I can defend the first, or even the second wave, without taking too much damage.. but once a medivac is out, Terran usually goes for a drop in the main and a run-by in the natural at the same time. Should I just give up on the natural until I have enough units to defend it ? In that case I'm going to lag behind in economy. Also, playing against helions forces a lot of early stalkers, which suck later. I usually die in the follow-up, whatever it is ( like the first MMM timing ). Am I still supposed to go fast colossus ? Should I delay/forget upgrades for a while ? Basically, if I scout incoming helions, how do I react ?
rd
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States2586 Posts
August 28 2013 17:59 GMT
#3305
On August 29 2013 02:38 Nyast wrote:
I have two tricky questions regarding PvT:

1. Should I send the MScore to scout ? I'm afraid that if I send it and see incoming helions, I will not have the time to come back home to defend it.

2. If I scout a fast factory / helions, how do I defend it ? Even when I know it's coming, I lose probes. Often I can defend the first, or even the second wave, without taking too much damage.. but once a medivac is out, Terran usually goes for a drop in the main and a run-by in the natural at the same time. Should I just give up on the natural until I have enough units to defend it ? In that case I'm going to lag behind in economy. Also, playing against helions forces a lot of early stalkers, which suck later. I usually die in the follow-up, whatever it is ( like the first MMM timing ). Am I still supposed to go fast colossus ? Should I delay/forget upgrades for a while ? Basically, if I scout incoming helions, how do I react ?


1. no

2. Theres nothing to really react to, other than making sure you have the right defenses in place. Nexus cannon in one base, all of your gateway units (usually 3 stalkers and some sentries) in another. If you have to, pull all of your probes to the cannon'ed base and bring your gateway units to it.
VayneAuthority
Profile Joined October 2012
United States8983 Posts
August 28 2013 18:02 GMT
#3306
if it looks like your opponent is going for a super aggressive style, never hurts to drop a cannon or two in your mineral lines. Just wait it out until you get your tech out
I come in for the scraps
Nyast
Profile Joined November 2010
Belgium554 Posts
August 28 2013 18:12 GMT
#3307
On August 29 2013 02:59 rd wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 29 2013 02:38 Nyast wrote:
I have two tricky questions regarding PvT:

1. Should I send the MScore to scout ? I'm afraid that if I send it and see incoming helions, I will not have the time to come back home to defend it.

2. If I scout a fast factory / helions, how do I defend it ? Even when I know it's coming, I lose probes. Often I can defend the first, or even the second wave, without taking too much damage.. but once a medivac is out, Terran usually goes for a drop in the main and a run-by in the natural at the same time. Should I just give up on the natural until I have enough units to defend it ? In that case I'm going to lag behind in economy. Also, playing against helions forces a lot of early stalkers, which suck later. I usually die in the follow-up, whatever it is ( like the first MMM timing ). Am I still supposed to go fast colossus ? Should I delay/forget upgrades for a while ? Basically, if I scout incoming helions, how do I react ?


1. no

2. Theres nothing to really react to, other than making sure you have the right defenses in place. Nexus cannon in one base, all of your gateway units (usually 3 stalkers and some sentries) in another. If you have to, pull all of your probes to the cannon'ed base and bring your gateway units to it.


Right but the nexus cannon doesn't have enough dps to kill 4 helions fast enough before they fry my entire probe line. Even when reacting fast enough and trying to move them away, they'll still get between 7-8 kills. And if you divide your army, they'll still get as many kills between the two bases. Usually Terran starts to harass with 2-4 helions, and the drop comes at 7'15 with 4 helions in main and 2-3 in natural.
DinoMight
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States3725 Posts
August 28 2013 18:29 GMT
#3308
On August 29 2013 03:12 Nyast wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 29 2013 02:59 rd wrote:
On August 29 2013 02:38 Nyast wrote:
I have two tricky questions regarding PvT:

1. Should I send the MScore to scout ? I'm afraid that if I send it and see incoming helions, I will not have the time to come back home to defend it.

2. If I scout a fast factory / helions, how do I defend it ? Even when I know it's coming, I lose probes. Often I can defend the first, or even the second wave, without taking too much damage.. but once a medivac is out, Terran usually goes for a drop in the main and a run-by in the natural at the same time. Should I just give up on the natural until I have enough units to defend it ? In that case I'm going to lag behind in economy. Also, playing against helions forces a lot of early stalkers, which suck later. I usually die in the follow-up, whatever it is ( like the first MMM timing ). Am I still supposed to go fast colossus ? Should I delay/forget upgrades for a while ? Basically, if I scout incoming helions, how do I react ?


1. no

2. Theres nothing to really react to, other than making sure you have the right defenses in place. Nexus cannon in one base, all of your gateway units (usually 3 stalkers and some sentries) in another. If you have to, pull all of your probes to the cannon'ed base and bring your gateway units to it.


Right but the nexus cannon doesn't have enough dps to kill 4 helions fast enough before they fry my entire probe line. Even when reacting fast enough and trying to move them away, they'll still get between 7-8 kills. And if you divide your army, they'll still get as many kills between the two bases. Usually Terran starts to harass with 2-4 helions, and the drop comes at 7'15 with 4 helions in main and 2-3 in natural.


I usually try to simcity so that nothing can go around my back mineral line ( i wall off half way). Helps with those early reapers and hellions.
"Wtf I come back and find myself in camp DinoMight all of a sudden, feels weird man." -Wombat_NI
KDot2
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States1213 Posts
August 28 2013 19:03 GMT
#3309
anyone have a solid macro opening for all 3 protoss matchups ? Im new to protoss and havent been following the meta so I kind of need a couple builds to start with

User was warned for this post
.kv
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States2332 Posts
August 28 2013 20:11 GMT
#3310
the first post kinda covers that for you...
megapants
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States1314 Posts
August 28 2013 22:42 GMT
#3311
On August 29 2013 03:12 Nyast wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 29 2013 02:59 rd wrote:
On August 29 2013 02:38 Nyast wrote:
I have two tricky questions regarding PvT:

1. Should I send the MScore to scout ? I'm afraid that if I send it and see incoming helions, I will not have the time to come back home to defend it.

2. If I scout a fast factory / helions, how do I defend it ? Even when I know it's coming, I lose probes. Often I can defend the first, or even the second wave, without taking too much damage.. but once a medivac is out, Terran usually goes for a drop in the main and a run-by in the natural at the same time. Should I just give up on the natural until I have enough units to defend it ? In that case I'm going to lag behind in economy. Also, playing against helions forces a lot of early stalkers, which suck later. I usually die in the follow-up, whatever it is ( like the first MMM timing ). Am I still supposed to go fast colossus ? Should I delay/forget upgrades for a while ? Basically, if I scout incoming helions, how do I react ?


1. no

2. Theres nothing to really react to, other than making sure you have the right defenses in place. Nexus cannon in one base, all of your gateway units (usually 3 stalkers and some sentries) in another. If you have to, pull all of your probes to the cannon'ed base and bring your gateway units to it.


Right but the nexus cannon doesn't have enough dps to kill 4 helions fast enough before they fry my entire probe line. Even when reacting fast enough and trying to move them away, they'll still get between 7-8 kills. And if you divide your army, they'll still get as many kills between the two bases. Usually Terran starts to harass with 2-4 helions, and the drop comes at 7'15 with 4 helions in main and 2-3 in natural.

your best bet to defend properly is to simply know what it's coming a few minutes before it comes. the timing is critical for defense since that is how you know where to best position your few units.

the first sign that terran might do this sort of play is if you scout no reaper and gas mining. obviously he's going to go factory tech. if terran doesn't go reaper and gets factory before reactor, he can produce 4 hellions at your front as early as 6 minutes. you can evacuate your probes from the natura - or don't transfer any over from your main in the first place if you don't feel confident enough to risk it for those ~30 seconds of mining time - just before this timing and leave one at the ramp to place down a pylon wall off to prevent him from getting up the ramp. softening up the hellions with whatever units you have out during this defense is key to holding off the next wave more easily.

if you already committed to robotics, then you should definitely get a forge out quickly after to get cannons to deal with the medivac followup. this also lets you get way ahead on upgrades, since terran is obviously investing a lot of gas to do this attack. if you knew this attack was coming before committing to robo, i would suggest delaying robo for forge first - since timing alone should be enough know when this attack should be coming without needed observers to spot - and then get your robo so you can get even further ahead in upgrades. this is also an ok response to cloak banshee, so it's a bit of a catch all if he decided to go for that follow up. but going robo first is fine since having observers around your bases is helpful for dealing with that multipronged harrass.

you could also delay robo until after you get additional gateway, assuming you know he's doing this hellion play, in order to set up a big counterattack or to get more units out to take a really fast third nexus if you manage to actually kill off most or all of his units, but thats really risky and will have a hard time against widow mine or cloak banshee follow ups.

it's acceptable to have probe losses if you go for a 4-5 minute nexus vs this play since you'll be getting so many rounds of probe production in comparison to them - they likely aren't going to be even mining off their second base til like 8 minutes, much less producing a lot of workers. i think an important part to feeling confident holding this attack off is whether or not you got your tech out before you took too many losses. like, even if he gets 10 worker kills, if you already started your robo and forge, you're going to be at least even, as long as you actually KILL the attack, since they seriously delayed their mid game to deal this much damage.

hope that was helpful
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
August 28 2013 22:50 GMT
#3312
Depending on the build, you can afford to lose 6-10 probes to Terran harassment and still be even. Of course, the faster the terran cc, the less probes you can afford to lose.

As far as generally dealing with hellions, it's tought arlight because as you said a cannon+nexus cannon can't deal with the hellions. Also, terrans will often attack both nat and main at the same time (say, dropping hellions and pushing in with marines).
Keeping that in mind, you should send your main army where the hellions are, and let cannon/photon overcharge clean up any marines/mines in the other base, while pulling probes out of danger.

It's a really fucking hard build to defend, so you really need to be on top of your micro and multitasking. You could try finding a practice partner if you really struggle vs it.
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
EsportsJohn
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States4883 Posts
August 29 2013 00:54 GMT
#3313
On August 29 2013 02:59 rd wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 29 2013 02:38 Nyast wrote:
I have two tricky questions regarding PvT:

1. Should I send the MScore to scout ? I'm afraid that if I send it and see incoming helions, I will not have the time to come back home to defend it.

2. If I scout a fast factory / helions, how do I defend it ? Even when I know it's coming, I lose probes. Often I can defend the first, or even the second wave, without taking too much damage.. but once a medivac is out, Terran usually goes for a drop in the main and a run-by in the natural at the same time. Should I just give up on the natural until I have enough units to defend it ? In that case I'm going to lag behind in economy. Also, playing against helions forces a lot of early stalkers, which suck later. I usually die in the follow-up, whatever it is ( like the first MMM timing ). Am I still supposed to go fast colossus ? Should I delay/forget upgrades for a while ? Basically, if I scout incoming helions, how do I react ?


1. no

2. Theres nothing to really react to, other than making sure you have the right defenses in place. Nexus cannon in one base, all of your gateway units (usually 3 stalkers and some sentries) in another. If you have to, pull all of your probes to the cannon'ed base and bring your gateway units to it.


For some clarification:

1) I think if you're doing a MsC expand, there's nothing wrong at all with doing a scout with the MsC. If you're on top of it, you should be able to get a good scout off at 5:30 (like 6-7 marines at most usually), avoid losing it to some kind of stupid marine flank, and be back home by 6:30 when most aggression starts. The main problem with MsC scouting usually comes with players trying to harass with the MsC or poke too far in. But if you're staying on top of it and paying attention, you'll be fine. At home, I generally have a stalker + 2 sentries hanging out on the ramp, so no fears of a fast hellion runby.

2) To defend, generally a cannon in the main + units and nexus cannon at the natural is enough. You might have to do some probe spreads, but you really shouldn't lose too many workers here, and even if you lose like 5-6, you're still pretty far ahead of most terran players opting for aggressive openings. To followup, I wouldn't be too greedy and get blink/charge or +2/+2 before colossus/templar...just make sure you still have stuff up to deal with medivacs again @10:00.
StrategyAllyssa Grey <3<3
Kinon
Profile Joined October 2012
Romania207 Posts
August 29 2013 10:58 GMT
#3314
In PvT, on maps where the third base is harder to take, how many gates should I have before putting down the third nexus?
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
August 29 2013 11:10 GMT
#3315
Standard six or seven on pretty much every map vs a medivac timing, depending on personal preference and what build you are doing more than anything. A good rule of thumb is 6 with colo first and 7 with templar first.
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
Nyast
Profile Joined November 2010
Belgium554 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-08-29 11:41:13
August 29 2013 11:37 GMT
#3316
On August 29 2013 07:42 megapants wrote:
your best bet to defend properly is to simply know what it's coming a few minutes before it comes. the timing is critical for defense since that is how you know where to best position your few units.

the first sign that terran might do this sort of play is if you scout no reaper and gas mining. obviously he's going to go factory tech. if terran doesn't go reaper and gets factory before reactor, he can produce 4 hellions at your front as early as 6 minutes. you can evacuate your probes from the natura - or don't transfer any over from your main in the first place if you don't feel confident enough to risk it for those ~30 seconds of mining time - just before this timing and leave one at the ramp to place down a pylon wall off to prevent him from getting up the ramp. softening up the hellions with whatever units you have out during this defense is key to holding off the next wave more easily.

if you already committed to robotics, then you should definitely get a forge out quickly after to get cannons to deal with the medivac followup. this also lets you get way ahead on upgrades, since terran is obviously investing a lot of gas to do this attack. if you knew this attack was coming before committing to robo, i would suggest delaying robo for forge first - since timing alone should be enough know when this attack should be coming without needed observers to spot - and then get your robo so you can get even further ahead in upgrades. this is also an ok response to cloak banshee, so it's a bit of a catch all if he decided to go for that follow up. but going robo first is fine since having observers around your bases is helpful for dealing with that multipronged harrass.

you could also delay robo until after you get additional gateway, assuming you know he's doing this hellion play, in order to set up a big counterattack or to get more units out to take a really fast third nexus if you manage to actually kill off most or all of his units, but thats really risky and will have a hard time against widow mine or cloak banshee follow ups.

it's acceptable to have probe losses if you go for a 4-5 minute nexus vs this play since you'll be getting so many rounds of probe production in comparison to them - they likely aren't going to be even mining off their second base til like 8 minutes, much less producing a lot of workers. i think an important part to feeling confident holding this attack off is whether or not you got your tech out before you took too many losses. like, even if he gets 10 worker kills, if you already started your robo and forge, you're going to be at least even, as long as you actually KILL the attack, since they seriously delayed their mid game to deal this much damage.

hope that was helpful


Thanks for the advice but unfortunately I don't find it that helpful

Scouting it coming is usually not the problem. The problem is that however I react, I'm playing behind. Even if I limit the damage to my probes line, I've been forced to warp a shitton of stalkers which later completely suck in the mid game.

Here are two examples of recent games:

1. Guy goes mass helions, no drops, but there are enough helions running in my natural that I just can't avoid to lose half my probes. Meanwhile he goes for greedy play / fast third into mech. Disregard the rest of the game, at 10' he has killed 20 probes, the game is over already:

http://drop.sc/356062

2. How I typically defend the early harass but lose the game right after. Around 8'30 I lose 24 probes, due to a runby in my natural followed by a drop 4 helions in my main. Despite scouting that it's coming at 4'45 with my probe ( I saw the factory + reactor ).

http://drop.sc/356063
EsportsJohn
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States4883 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-08-29 13:58:01
August 29 2013 13:56 GMT
#3317
On August 29 2013 20:37 Nyast wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 29 2013 07:42 megapants wrote:
your best bet to defend properly is to simply know what it's coming a few minutes before it comes. the timing is critical for defense since that is how you know where to best position your few units.

the first sign that terran might do this sort of play is if you scout no reaper and gas mining. obviously he's going to go factory tech. if terran doesn't go reaper and gets factory before reactor, he can produce 4 hellions at your front as early as 6 minutes. you can evacuate your probes from the natura - or don't transfer any over from your main in the first place if you don't feel confident enough to risk it for those ~30 seconds of mining time - just before this timing and leave one at the ramp to place down a pylon wall off to prevent him from getting up the ramp. softening up the hellions with whatever units you have out during this defense is key to holding off the next wave more easily.

if you already committed to robotics, then you should definitely get a forge out quickly after to get cannons to deal with the medivac followup. this also lets you get way ahead on upgrades, since terran is obviously investing a lot of gas to do this attack. if you knew this attack was coming before committing to robo, i would suggest delaying robo for forge first - since timing alone should be enough know when this attack should be coming without needed observers to spot - and then get your robo so you can get even further ahead in upgrades. this is also an ok response to cloak banshee, so it's a bit of a catch all if he decided to go for that follow up. but going robo first is fine since having observers around your bases is helpful for dealing with that multipronged harrass.

you could also delay robo until after you get additional gateway, assuming you know he's doing this hellion play, in order to set up a big counterattack or to get more units out to take a really fast third nexus if you manage to actually kill off most or all of his units, but thats really risky and will have a hard time against widow mine or cloak banshee follow ups.

it's acceptable to have probe losses if you go for a 4-5 minute nexus vs this play since you'll be getting so many rounds of probe production in comparison to them - they likely aren't going to be even mining off their second base til like 8 minutes, much less producing a lot of workers. i think an important part to feeling confident holding this attack off is whether or not you got your tech out before you took too many losses. like, even if he gets 10 worker kills, if you already started your robo and forge, you're going to be at least even, as long as you actually KILL the attack, since they seriously delayed their mid game to deal this much damage.

hope that was helpful


Thanks for the advice but unfortunately I don't find it that helpful

Scouting it coming is usually not the problem. The problem is that however I react, I'm playing behind. Even if I limit the damage to my probes line, I've been forced to warp a shitton of stalkers which later completely suck in the mid game.

Here are two examples of recent games:

1. Guy goes mass helions, no drops, but there are enough helions running in my natural that I just can't avoid to lose half my probes. Meanwhile he goes for greedy play / fast third into mech. Disregard the rest of the game, at 10' he has killed 20 probes, the game is over already:

http://drop.sc/356062

2. How I typically defend the early harass but lose the game right after. Around 8'30 I lose 24 probes, due to a runby in my natural followed by a drop 4 helions in my main. Despite scouting that it's coming at 4'45 with my probe ( I saw the factory + reactor ).

http://drop.sc/356063


1. BAHAHAHAHAHAHA, you actually tell the dude how to kill you hahahahahaha. Okay, first thing, you have a really fucking weird build lol. It's like 11 probe scout then a zealot with a delayed pylon (25 instead of 23) then you don't make a sentry until 5:10 despite having over 200 gas. I don't know if you intend for all of these things, but nothing lines up and nothing makes sense with your opening. I suggest you learn one of these builds. Next thing, you need to be more on top of your forcefields. Next thing, that amount of stalkers is completely unnecessary; if you need extra DPS, put down a cannon. That, along with generally bad crisis management has put you so behind that you can never win. Your first observer is out at 9:00, you never take both natural gases, and then you put down a colossus bay, build a warp prism, take a 3rd, and THEN build a colossus. Why?

2. The build is this game makes much more sense. I think, however, if you're planning to do a MsC expand, you should attempt to scout later, especially on a 4-player map. The reason for gateway scouting is that you can generally get up your opponent's ramp before a wall goes down; on 4-player maps, however, you have a fairly low chance of that, so you might as well just scout after core and get the same information while saving some minerals. Again, you face the problem of having too many stalkers and no cannons; build an early forge and put cannons down instead of wasting so gas on stalkers.

Basically, you're builds are looking a little sloppy and unrefined, and as a result, dealing with something like this is uglier than it needs to be. Holding the initial hellions shouldn't be that hard. As for dealing with mass hellions, just make AN immortal; they work wonders. Against an opening like this, you can build 3 immortals and then just immortal bust ftw (because he won't have enough units to fill the bunkers).

Sidenote: don't delay your robo like that post above was talking about, that's a bad idea.
StrategyAllyssa Grey <3<3
Nyast
Profile Joined November 2010
Belgium554 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-08-29 14:23:00
August 29 2013 14:22 GMT
#3318
On August 29 2013 22:56 SC2John wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 29 2013 20:37 Nyast wrote:
On August 29 2013 07:42 megapants wrote:
your best bet to defend properly is to simply know what it's coming a few minutes before it comes. the timing is critical for defense since that is how you know where to best position your few units.

the first sign that terran might do this sort of play is if you scout no reaper and gas mining. obviously he's going to go factory tech. if terran doesn't go reaper and gets factory before reactor, he can produce 4 hellions at your front as early as 6 minutes. you can evacuate your probes from the natura - or don't transfer any over from your main in the first place if you don't feel confident enough to risk it for those ~30 seconds of mining time - just before this timing and leave one at the ramp to place down a pylon wall off to prevent him from getting up the ramp. softening up the hellions with whatever units you have out during this defense is key to holding off the next wave more easily.

if you already committed to robotics, then you should definitely get a forge out quickly after to get cannons to deal with the medivac followup. this also lets you get way ahead on upgrades, since terran is obviously investing a lot of gas to do this attack. if you knew this attack was coming before committing to robo, i would suggest delaying robo for forge first - since timing alone should be enough know when this attack should be coming without needed observers to spot - and then get your robo so you can get even further ahead in upgrades. this is also an ok response to cloak banshee, so it's a bit of a catch all if he decided to go for that follow up. but going robo first is fine since having observers around your bases is helpful for dealing with that multipronged harrass.

you could also delay robo until after you get additional gateway, assuming you know he's doing this hellion play, in order to set up a big counterattack or to get more units out to take a really fast third nexus if you manage to actually kill off most or all of his units, but thats really risky and will have a hard time against widow mine or cloak banshee follow ups.

it's acceptable to have probe losses if you go for a 4-5 minute nexus vs this play since you'll be getting so many rounds of probe production in comparison to them - they likely aren't going to be even mining off their second base til like 8 minutes, much less producing a lot of workers. i think an important part to feeling confident holding this attack off is whether or not you got your tech out before you took too many losses. like, even if he gets 10 worker kills, if you already started your robo and forge, you're going to be at least even, as long as you actually KILL the attack, since they seriously delayed their mid game to deal this much damage.

hope that was helpful


Thanks for the advice but unfortunately I don't find it that helpful

Scouting it coming is usually not the problem. The problem is that however I react, I'm playing behind. Even if I limit the damage to my probes line, I've been forced to warp a shitton of stalkers which later completely suck in the mid game.

Here are two examples of recent games:

1. Guy goes mass helions, no drops, but there are enough helions running in my natural that I just can't avoid to lose half my probes. Meanwhile he goes for greedy play / fast third into mech. Disregard the rest of the game, at 10' he has killed 20 probes, the game is over already:

http://drop.sc/356062

2. How I typically defend the early harass but lose the game right after. Around 8'30 I lose 24 probes, due to a runby in my natural followed by a drop 4 helions in my main. Despite scouting that it's coming at 4'45 with my probe ( I saw the factory + reactor ).

http://drop.sc/356063


1. BAHAHAHAHAHAHA, you actually tell the dude how to kill you hahahahahaha. Okay, first thing, you have a really fucking weird build lol. It's like 11 probe scout then a zealot with a delayed pylon (25 instead of 23) then you don't make a sentry until 5:10 despite having over 200 gas. I don't know if you intend for all of these things, but nothing lines up and nothing makes sense with your opening. I suggest you learn one of these builds. Next thing, you need to be more on top of your forcefields. Next thing, that amount of stalkers is completely unnecessary; if you need extra DPS, put down a cannon. That, along with generally bad crisis management has put you so behind that you can never win. Your first observer is out at 9:00, you never take both natural gases, and then you put down a colossus bay, build a warp prism, take a 3rd, and THEN build a colossus. Why?

2. The build is this game makes much more sense. I think, however, if you're planning to do a MsC expand, you should attempt to scout later, especially on a 4-player map. The reason for gateway scouting is that you can generally get up your opponent's ramp before a wall goes down; on 4-player maps, however, you have a fairly low chance of that, so you might as well just scout after core and get the same information while saving some minerals. Again, you face the problem of having too many stalkers and no cannons; build an early forge and put cannons down instead of wasting so gas on stalkers.

Basically, you're builds are looking a little sloppy and unrefined, and as a result, dealing with something like this is uglier than it needs to be. Holding the initial hellions shouldn't be that hard. As for dealing with mass hellions, just make AN immortal; they work wonders. Against an opening like this, you can build 3 immortals and then just immortal bust ftw (because he won't have enough units to fill the bunkers).

Sidenote: don't delay your robo like that post above was talking about, that's a bad idea.


1. It was my 4th or 5th loss against helions so I was testing new things. Yeah, the build didn't make sense

2. That was an older game and closer to my standard build. When should I drop the forge then ? As soon as I scout helions ? Should I stay on 1 gate longer ?
DinoMight
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States3725 Posts
August 29 2013 16:10 GMT
#3319
Hey guys. Question (and pardon my french because I'm a bit annoyed):

How. THE FUCK. Does one stop the "Bomber build?"

The one where he goes 5 rax before taking a 3rd and then pulls his SCVS and GGYOLOSWAG 1TA before you can get storm out?

Grubby and First both got annihilated by it, and now I'm seeing it on ladder a lot and getting pwned pretty hard.

High Diamond Protoss here.
"Wtf I come back and find myself in camp DinoMight all of a sudden, feels weird man." -Wombat_NI
VayneAuthority
Profile Joined October 2012
United States8983 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-08-29 16:19:56
August 29 2013 16:18 GMT
#3320
well a few options once you have scouted it

1. some AMAZING forcefields

2. some DT play (use up scans)

3. drop 3-4 cannons @ nat + nexus cannon might defend ( never actually tested this)

but yea it's an annoying build thats hard to beat if executed properly since protoss midgame is so trash

oh I forgot about oracle build if you went stargate...2-3 oracles can definitely help stop this since they will need to invest in more marines and your army is kinda stalker heavy at this point so you don't want a lot of marauders.
I come in for the scraps
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