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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders. | ||
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See.Blue
United States2673 Posts
On July 05 2013 18:40 Teoita wrote: There isn't a set timing, but for the most part people tend to get it while they take their third (so after you spent gas in stargate, robo, +1 and sentries). Great, many thanks. | ||
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Tacopuff
Sweden5 Posts
You see I lack a real build order, Ive watched alot of games at the proffesional level and tried to adapt a style wich includes FFE --> stargate --> robo --> third, rough frame work is bassicly fast stargate for phoenixes with a robo to, then take a third I have had some issues with it though. For one Im not really sure when to add gates and get my MC core. My biggest problem seems to be how to get splash for hydra pushes on my third base, maybe getting 4-5 phoenixes just is ineffecient? I currently dont have the ability to load up any replays of mine (Not on my main computer) But what im really asking for is a build roughly the same as my own (stargate for 4-5 phoenixes with a robo behind into third base with collusus) Sorry If im not very detailed in my explanation I hope its enough I will come back to this with replays as soon as I get home, but I would really just like a solid build for now wich I can practise. Thanks in advance (I would also want to apologize for my bad english  ) | ||
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Extenz
Italy822 Posts
On July 05 2013 19:57 Tacopuff wrote: Hello TL, My name is Tacopuff and im a diamond level protoss player who currently has issues in PvZ You see I lack a real build order, Ive watched alot of games at the proffesional level and tried to adapt a style wich includes FFE --> stargate --> robo --> third, rough frame work is bassicly fast stargate for phoenixes with a robo to, then take a third I have had some issues with it though. For one Im not really sure when to add gates and get my MC core. My biggest problem seems to be how to get splash for hydra pushes on my third base, maybe getting 4-5 phoenixes just is ineffecient? I currently dont have the ability to load up any replays of mine (Not on my main computer) But what im really asking for is a build roughly the same as my own (stargate for 4-5 phoenixes with a robo behind into third base with collusus) Sorry If im not very detailed in my explanation I hope its enough I will come back to this with replays as soon as I get home, but I would really just like a solid build for now wich I can practise. Thanks in advance (I would also want to apologize for my bad english )4-5 Phoenixes is fine and it is a standard opening in PvZ to prevent mutas, I suggest you start taking your third when the first colossus is out to be safe, start adding gates when you see you're banking some money (you can expand off 4-5 gates), with your ffe gate keep warping sentries to build energy. You can take your Robo while you're chronoing phoenixes and realize you now have spare gas to use. Make sure not to get supply blocked when you chrono your first colossus or your third will be late, also remember to keep your phoenixes alive and check the third to kill the overlord that wants to spread creep or the zergling. About the mothership core, I might be wrong since I always do gate expo so I get it early, but I guess take it after the first sentry, so you will be safe vs any kind of rushes. | ||
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See.Blue
United States2673 Posts
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Tacopuff
Sweden5 Posts
On July 05 2013 21:16 Extenz wrote: 4-5 Phoenixes is fine and it is a standard opening in PvZ to prevent mutas, I suggest you start taking your third when the first colossus is out to be safe, start adding gates when you see you're banking some money (you can expand off 4-5 gates), with your ffe gate keep warping sentries to build energy. You can take your Robo while you're chronoing phoenixes and realize you now have spare gas to use. Make sure not to get supply blocked when you chrono your first colossus or your third will be late, also remember to keep your phoenixes alive and check the third to kill the overlord that wants to spread creep or the zergling. About the mothership core, I might be wrong since I always do gate expo so I get it early, but I guess take it after the first sentry, so you will be safe vs any kind of rushes. Thank you so much for your answer!! What's a reasonable time for my third? So i have a benchmark to aim for  Thank you | ||
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
On July 05 2013 18:31 See.Blue wrote: If I'm trying to do a FFE -> stargate, when do I get the msc and such? The OP links a bunch of WoL stuff, is this still relevant? I stole Rain's PvZ stargate from proleague vods - it's stargate --> extra gateways --> robo. You can get your robo before adding any extra gateways though. I've noticed Rain did that a couple of weeks ago in proleague, not sure why. I've also compared Rain's build (the gateway into robo version) with MC's stargate, which is described in the PvZ guide. I'm not sure why you're supposed to get your 3 extra gateways up so late with MC's build. So I'd personally stick to Rain's benchmarks, which are tighter imo. Even if you feel like switching things up here and there, I find his timings to be a really solid reference for this PvZ style. Rain-------------------------------MC | 5:30 | Stargate.........| 6:00 | Stargate | 5:45 | 3rd/4th gas.....| 6:20 | 3rd/4th gas | 7:00 | gates.............| 7:50 | gates | 7:40 | robo...............| 8:35 | robo | 8:00 | +1 atk............| 5:00 | +1 atk | 8:15 | msc............... *wol = no msc* | 8:45 | robo bay.........| 9:40+ | robo bay | 9:20-9:40 | twilight....| ??? | twilight | 9:20-9:40 | third........| 10:10+ | third PvZ Stargate - vods from proleague Rain vs Rare + Show Spoiler + Parting vs Hydra + Show Spoiler + | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On July 05 2013 21:57 See.Blue wrote: Teoita or anyone else master/gm have any PvZ replays they could share going air? I've been practicing all morning and I'd just like to see what I need to tweak to get more into line with how it should be. Check out the replay pack rsvp released a while ago for full air stuff. I personally don't really do it, but i've been playing around a lot with going stargate>fast third>3star void, getting 6-8 voids (not entirely sure on the exact count yet) and then switching into zealot/archon like sos did at the wcs finals. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On July 05 2013 22:20 Tacopuff wrote: Thank you so much for your answer!! What's a reasonable time for my third? So i have a benchmark to aim for Thank youBetween 9 and 10 minutes. I like to start it after my first round of units off warpgates, but it's fine to take it a little later. | ||
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See.Blue
United States2673 Posts
On July 05 2013 22:38 Teoita wrote: Check out the replay pack rsvp released a while ago for full air stuff. I personally don't really do it, but i've been playing around a lot with going stargate>fast third>3star void, getting 6-8 voids (not entirely sure on the exact count yet) and then switching into zealot/archon like sos did at the wcs finals. OK very interesting. Does that handle muta decently? | ||
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Tacopuff
Sweden5 Posts
On July 05 2013 22:32 vhapter wrote: I stole Rain's PvZ stargate from proleague vods - it's stargate --> extra gateways --> robo. You can get your robo before adding any extra gateways though. I've noticed Rain did that a couple of weeks ago in proleague, not sure why. I've also compared Rain's build (the gateway into robo version) with MC's stargate, which is described in the PvZ guide. I'm not sure why you're supposed to get your 3 extra gateways up so late with MC's build. So I'd personally stick to Rain's benchmarks, which are tighter imo. Even if you feel like switching things up here and there, I find his timings to be a really solid reference for this PvZ style. Rain-------------------------------MC | 5:30 | Stargate.........| 6:00 | Stargate | 5:45 | 3rd/4th gas.....| 6:20 | 3rd/4th gas | 7:00 | gates.............| 7:50 | gates | 7:40 | robo...............| 8:35 | robo | 8:00 | +1 atk............| 5:00 | +1 atk | 8:15 | msc............... *wol = no msc* | 8:45 | robo bay.........| 9:40+ | robo bay | 9:20-9:40 | twilight....| ??? | twilight | 9:20-9:40 | third........| 10:10+ | third PvZ Stargate - vods from proleague Rain vs Rare + Show Spoiler + http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhxetMiRiSk Parting vs Hydra + Show Spoiler + http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lz7F2TsRgF4 Wow this looks like exactly what I am looking for, thank you! Are you sure this is safe agaisnt everything? (looks rather greedy to me but what do I know) What deviations could be made? Do you ever need to abondon the build because of zerg going a particular tech route? Im sorry If i ask alot of questions maybe I should have opened a thread about it instead =/ -Tacopuff (Edit: I understand this build is very crisp therefore easy to mess up the timings, Is it very dependant on skill like being super effective with phoenixes, forcefields? I am ready to lose alot of games for the sake of practise but Im no Rain) | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
On July 05 2013 22:44 Tacopuff wrote: Wow this looks like exactly what I am looking for, thank you! Are you sure this is safe agaisnt everything? (looks rather greedy to me but what do I know) What deviations could be made? Do you ever need to abondon the build because of zerg going a particular tech route? Im sorry If i ask alot of questions maybe I should have opened a thread about it instead =/ -Tacopuff (Edit: I understand this build is very crisp therefore easy to mess up the timings, Is it very dependant on skill like being super effective with phoenixes, forcefields? I am ready to lose alot of games for the sake of practise but Im no Rain) Well, it's Rain's macro style. When it comes to defensive/safe protoss play, Rain excels in a way no other protoss player does. The only thing you might want to adapt is going robo before gateways and perhaps add 1-2 immortals before getting colossi. Colossi are important vs hydras and swarm host with a build like this, while immortals aren't that important unless your opponent favors heavy roach aggression. There's only so much gas you can spend too. As long as the zerg goes 3 hatch before gas, you're totally fine. Of course, if they do something else, then you may have to adapt to it depending on what it is. And yeah, this build does tax your multitasking quite a bit imo. Since all zergs use 2 overlords for scouting, you generally want to rally your first phoenix to an overlord, your second phoenix to another one, and then move out once your third phoenix comes out, then go up to 4 or 5 phoenix (4 is just enough imo). Try to kill queens and drones while not messing up your macro. Once his bases are not vulnerable enough, try rally jacking drones that are going to his third. It's easy to mess up your own macro with this build if you haven't practiced enough imo, so you should definitely practice it by yourself a couple of times. GL! | ||
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Tacopuff
Sweden5 Posts
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Kinon
Romania207 Posts
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Whatson
United States5357 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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aldochillbro
187 Posts
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eNtitY~
United States1293 Posts
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TokO
Norway577 Posts
On July 06 2013 10:15 eNtitY~ wrote: I heard Immortal/Archon became the new Meta in PvP, I don't understand how you beat mass colossus with that. I think it plays on the fact that Immortal/Archon/HT based armies reach their 'optimal' composition much quicker than 9/9/9-Colossus\Archon\Immortal. Therefore you can use it to start aggression and leaning on your opponent, expanding more aggressively much quicker than with Colossus based armies. Colossus based armies tend to be a little more vulnerable in the build-up phase. Key aspects: - Expand timings - Double Upgrades - More Gateways for higher paced game. Big maps with opportunity for large concaves are of course much better than maps with narrower gaps, e.g. I think Red City LE is unfavourable for Immortal/Archon/HT. | ||
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mizU
United States12125 Posts
Am I just defending badly? (Normally I'm talking about 10-12 roachs into mutas on three bases) | ||
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