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The HotS Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 134

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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders.
See.Blue
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
United States2673 Posts
July 05 2013 10:21 GMT
#2661
On July 05 2013 18:40 Teoita wrote:
There isn't a set timing, but for the most part people tend to get it while they take their third (so after you spent gas in stargate, robo, +1 and sentries).


Great, many thanks.
Tacopuff
Profile Joined January 2013
Sweden5 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-07-05 10:58:38
July 05 2013 10:57 GMT
#2662
Hello TL, My name is Tacopuff and im a diamond level protoss player who currently has issues in PvZ
You see I lack a real build order, Ive watched alot of games at the proffesional level and tried to adapt a style wich includes FFE --> stargate --> robo --> third, rough frame work is bassicly fast stargate for phoenixes with a robo to, then take a third I have had some issues with it though.

For one Im not really sure when to add gates and get my MC core. My biggest problem seems to be how to get splash for hydra pushes on my third base, maybe getting 4-5 phoenixes just is ineffecient? I currently dont have the ability to load up any replays of mine (Not on my main computer) But what im really asking for is a build roughly the same as my own (stargate for 4-5 phoenixes with a robo behind into third base with collusus)

Sorry If im not very detailed in my explanation I hope its enough I will come back to this with replays as soon as I get home, but I would really just like a solid build for now wich I can practise.

Thanks in advance

(I would also want to apologize for my bad english )
Extenz
Profile Joined October 2011
Italy822 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-07-05 12:21:40
July 05 2013 12:16 GMT
#2663
On July 05 2013 19:57 Tacopuff wrote:
Hello TL, My name is Tacopuff and im a diamond level protoss player who currently has issues in PvZ
You see I lack a real build order, Ive watched alot of games at the proffesional level and tried to adapt a style wich includes FFE --> stargate --> robo --> third, rough frame work is bassicly fast stargate for phoenixes with a robo to, then take a third I have had some issues with it though.

For one Im not really sure when to add gates and get my MC core. My biggest problem seems to be how to get splash for hydra pushes on my third base, maybe getting 4-5 phoenixes just is ineffecient? I currently dont have the ability to load up any replays of mine (Not on my main computer) But what im really asking for is a build roughly the same as my own (stargate for 4-5 phoenixes with a robo behind into third base with collusus)

Sorry If im not very detailed in my explanation I hope its enough I will come back to this with replays as soon as I get home, but I would really just like a solid build for now wich I can practise.

Thanks in advance

(I would also want to apologize for my bad english )


4-5 Phoenixes is fine and it is a standard opening in PvZ to prevent mutas, I suggest you start taking your third when the first colossus is out to be safe, start adding gates when you see you're banking some money (you can expand off 4-5 gates), with your ffe gate keep warping sentries to build energy.
You can take your Robo while you're chronoing phoenixes and realize you now have spare gas to use.
Make sure not to get supply blocked when you chrono your first colossus or your third will be late, also remember to keep your phoenixes alive and check the third to kill the overlord that wants to spread creep or the zergling.

About the mothership core, I might be wrong since I always do gate expo so I get it early, but I guess take it after the first sentry, so you will be safe vs any kind of rushes.
See.Blue
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
United States2673 Posts
July 05 2013 12:57 GMT
#2664
Teoita or anyone else master/gm have any PvZ replays they could share going air? I've been practicing all morning and I'd just like to see what I need to tweak to get more into line with how it should be.
Tacopuff
Profile Joined January 2013
Sweden5 Posts
July 05 2013 13:20 GMT
#2665
On July 05 2013 21:16 Extenz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 05 2013 19:57 Tacopuff wrote:
Hello TL, My name is Tacopuff and im a diamond level protoss player who currently has issues in PvZ
You see I lack a real build order, Ive watched alot of games at the proffesional level and tried to adapt a style wich includes FFE --> stargate --> robo --> third, rough frame work is bassicly fast stargate for phoenixes with a robo to, then take a third I have had some issues with it though.

For one Im not really sure when to add gates and get my MC core. My biggest problem seems to be how to get splash for hydra pushes on my third base, maybe getting 4-5 phoenixes just is ineffecient? I currently dont have the ability to load up any replays of mine (Not on my main computer) But what im really asking for is a build roughly the same as my own (stargate for 4-5 phoenixes with a robo behind into third base with collusus)

Sorry If im not very detailed in my explanation I hope its enough I will come back to this with replays as soon as I get home, but I would really just like a solid build for now wich I can practise.

Thanks in advance

(I would also want to apologize for my bad english )


4-5 Phoenixes is fine and it is a standard opening in PvZ to prevent mutas, I suggest you start taking your third when the first colossus is out to be safe, start adding gates when you see you're banking some money (you can expand off 4-5 gates), with your ffe gate keep warping sentries to build energy.
You can take your Robo while you're chronoing phoenixes and realize you now have spare gas to use.
Make sure not to get supply blocked when you chrono your first colossus or your third will be late, also remember to keep your phoenixes alive and check the third to kill the overlord that wants to spread creep or the zergling.

About the mothership core, I might be wrong since I always do gate expo so I get it early, but I guess take it after the first sentry, so you will be safe vs any kind of rushes.



Thank you so much for your answer!!
What's a reasonable time for my third? So i have a benchmark to aim for Thank you
vhapter
Profile Joined May 2010
Brazil677 Posts
July 05 2013 13:32 GMT
#2666
On July 05 2013 18:31 See.Blue wrote:
If I'm trying to do a FFE -> stargate, when do I get the msc and such? The OP links a bunch of WoL stuff, is this still relevant?


I stole Rain's PvZ stargate from proleague vods - it's stargate --> extra gateways --> robo. You can get your robo before adding any extra gateways though. I've noticed Rain did that a couple of weeks ago in proleague, not sure why. I've also compared Rain's build (the gateway into robo version) with MC's stargate, which is described in the PvZ guide.

I'm not sure why you're supposed to get your 3 extra gateways up so late with MC's build. So I'd personally stick to Rain's benchmarks, which are tighter imo. Even if you feel like switching things up here and there, I find his timings to be a really solid reference for this PvZ style.

Rain-------------------------------MC
| 5:30 | Stargate.........| 6:00 | Stargate
| 5:45 | 3rd/4th gas.....| 6:20 | 3rd/4th gas
| 7:00 | gates.............| 7:50 | gates
| 7:40 | robo...............| 8:35 | robo
| 8:00 | +1 atk............| 5:00 | +1 atk
| 8:15 | msc............... *wol = no msc*
| 8:45 | robo bay.........| 9:40+ | robo bay
| 9:20-9:40 | twilight....| ??? | twilight
| 9:20-9:40 | third........| 10:10+ | third

PvZ Stargate - vods from proleague

Rain vs Rare
+ Show Spoiler +

Parting vs Hydra
+ Show Spoiler +
To live is to fight, to fight is to live!
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
July 05 2013 13:38 GMT
#2667
On July 05 2013 21:57 See.Blue wrote:
Teoita or anyone else master/gm have any PvZ replays they could share going air? I've been practicing all morning and I'd just like to see what I need to tweak to get more into line with how it should be.


Check out the replay pack rsvp released a while ago for full air stuff.

I personally don't really do it, but i've been playing around a lot with going stargate>fast third>3star void, getting 6-8 voids (not entirely sure on the exact count yet) and then switching into zealot/archon like sos did at the wcs finals.
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
July 05 2013 13:41 GMT
#2668
On July 05 2013 22:20 Tacopuff wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 05 2013 21:16 Extenz wrote:
On July 05 2013 19:57 Tacopuff wrote:
Hello TL, My name is Tacopuff and im a diamond level protoss player who currently has issues in PvZ
You see I lack a real build order, Ive watched alot of games at the proffesional level and tried to adapt a style wich includes FFE --> stargate --> robo --> third, rough frame work is bassicly fast stargate for phoenixes with a robo to, then take a third I have had some issues with it though.

For one Im not really sure when to add gates and get my MC core. My biggest problem seems to be how to get splash for hydra pushes on my third base, maybe getting 4-5 phoenixes just is ineffecient? I currently dont have the ability to load up any replays of mine (Not on my main computer) But what im really asking for is a build roughly the same as my own (stargate for 4-5 phoenixes with a robo behind into third base with collusus)

Sorry If im not very detailed in my explanation I hope its enough I will come back to this with replays as soon as I get home, but I would really just like a solid build for now wich I can practise.

Thanks in advance

(I would also want to apologize for my bad english )


4-5 Phoenixes is fine and it is a standard opening in PvZ to prevent mutas, I suggest you start taking your third when the first colossus is out to be safe, start adding gates when you see you're banking some money (you can expand off 4-5 gates), with your ffe gate keep warping sentries to build energy.
You can take your Robo while you're chronoing phoenixes and realize you now have spare gas to use.
Make sure not to get supply blocked when you chrono your first colossus or your third will be late, also remember to keep your phoenixes alive and check the third to kill the overlord that wants to spread creep or the zergling.

About the mothership core, I might be wrong since I always do gate expo so I get it early, but I guess take it after the first sentry, so you will be safe vs any kind of rushes.



Thank you so much for your answer!!
What's a reasonable time for my third? So i have a benchmark to aim for Thank you


Between 9 and 10 minutes. I like to start it after my first round of units off warpgates, but it's fine to take it a little later.
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
See.Blue
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
United States2673 Posts
July 05 2013 13:44 GMT
#2669
On July 05 2013 22:38 Teoita wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 05 2013 21:57 See.Blue wrote:
Teoita or anyone else master/gm have any PvZ replays they could share going air? I've been practicing all morning and I'd just like to see what I need to tweak to get more into line with how it should be.


Check out the replay pack rsvp released a while ago for full air stuff.

I personally don't really do it, but i've been playing around a lot with going stargate>fast third>3star void, getting 6-8 voids (not entirely sure on the exact count yet) and then switching into zealot/archon like sos did at the wcs finals.


OK very interesting. Does that handle muta decently?
Tacopuff
Profile Joined January 2013
Sweden5 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-07-05 13:47:36
July 05 2013 13:44 GMT
#2670
On July 05 2013 22:32 vhapter wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 05 2013 18:31 See.Blue wrote:
If I'm trying to do a FFE -> stargate, when do I get the msc and such? The OP links a bunch of WoL stuff, is this still relevant?


I stole Rain's PvZ stargate from proleague vods - it's stargate --> extra gateways --> robo. You can get your robo before adding any extra gateways though. I've noticed Rain did that a couple of weeks ago in proleague, not sure why. I've also compared Rain's build (the gateway into robo version) with MC's stargate, which is described in the PvZ guide.

I'm not sure why you're supposed to get your 3 extra gateways up so late with MC's build. So I'd personally stick to Rain's benchmarks, which are tighter imo. Even if you feel like switching things up here and there, I find his timings to be a really solid reference for this PvZ style.

Rain-------------------------------MC
| 5:30 | Stargate.........| 6:00 | Stargate
| 5:45 | 3rd/4th gas.....| 6:20 | 3rd/4th gas
| 7:00 | gates.............| 7:50 | gates
| 7:40 | robo...............| 8:35 | robo
| 8:00 | +1 atk............| 5:00 | +1 atk
| 8:15 | msc............... *wol = no msc*
| 8:45 | robo bay.........| 9:40+ | robo bay
| 9:20-9:40 | twilight....| ??? | twilight
| 9:20-9:40 | third........| 10:10+ | third

PvZ Stargate - vods from proleague

Rain vs Rare
+ Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhxetMiRiSk

Parting vs Hydra
+ Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lz7F2TsRgF4



Wow this looks like exactly what I am looking for, thank you!
Are you sure this is safe agaisnt everything? (looks rather greedy to me but what do I know) What deviations could be made? Do you ever need to abondon the build because of zerg going a particular tech route? Im sorry If i ask alot of questions maybe I should have opened a thread about it instead =/

-Tacopuff



(Edit: I understand this build is very crisp therefore easy to mess up the timings, Is it very dependant on skill like being super effective with phoenixes, forcefields? I am ready to lose alot of games for the sake of practise but Im no Rain)

Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
July 05 2013 13:52 GMT
#2671
That's pretty much the most middle of the road build you can find. It is safe vs everything but at the same time as every safe build, it ends up being behind if your opponent plays extremely greedy (for instance, if he's immediately going into mutas seeing your third). Also, on some maps like Derelict Watcher and Star Station it can be tough to hold your third vs roach/hydra type busts, but that's true for pretty much every build out there...
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
vhapter
Profile Joined May 2010
Brazil677 Posts
July 05 2013 14:29 GMT
#2672
On July 05 2013 22:44 Tacopuff wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 05 2013 22:32 vhapter wrote:
On July 05 2013 18:31 See.Blue wrote:
If I'm trying to do a FFE -> stargate, when do I get the msc and such? The OP links a bunch of WoL stuff, is this still relevant?


I stole Rain's PvZ stargate from proleague vods - it's stargate --> extra gateways --> robo. You can get your robo before adding any extra gateways though. I've noticed Rain did that a couple of weeks ago in proleague, not sure why. I've also compared Rain's build (the gateway into robo version) with MC's stargate, which is described in the PvZ guide.

I'm not sure why you're supposed to get your 3 extra gateways up so late with MC's build. So I'd personally stick to Rain's benchmarks, which are tighter imo. Even if you feel like switching things up here and there, I find his timings to be a really solid reference for this PvZ style.

Rain-------------------------------MC
| 5:30 | Stargate.........| 6:00 | Stargate
| 5:45 | 3rd/4th gas.....| 6:20 | 3rd/4th gas
| 7:00 | gates.............| 7:50 | gates
| 7:40 | robo...............| 8:35 | robo
| 8:00 | +1 atk............| 5:00 | +1 atk
| 8:15 | msc............... *wol = no msc*
| 8:45 | robo bay.........| 9:40+ | robo bay
| 9:20-9:40 | twilight....| ??? | twilight
| 9:20-9:40 | third........| 10:10+ | third

PvZ Stargate - vods from proleague

Rain vs Rare
+ Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhxetMiRiSk

Parting vs Hydra
+ Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lz7F2TsRgF4



Wow this looks like exactly what I am looking for, thank you!
Are you sure this is safe agaisnt everything? (looks rather greedy to me but what do I know) What deviations could be made? Do you ever need to abondon the build because of zerg going a particular tech route? Im sorry If i ask alot of questions maybe I should have opened a thread about it instead =/

-Tacopuff



(Edit: I understand this build is very crisp therefore easy to mess up the timings, Is it very dependant on skill like being super effective with phoenixes, forcefields? I am ready to lose alot of games for the sake of practise but Im no Rain)


Well, it's Rain's macro style. When it comes to defensive/safe protoss play, Rain excels in a way no other protoss player does. The only thing you might want to adapt is going robo before gateways and perhaps add 1-2 immortals before getting colossi. Colossi are important vs hydras and swarm host with a build like this, while immortals aren't that important unless your opponent favors heavy roach aggression. There's only so much gas you can spend too.

As long as the zerg goes 3 hatch before gas, you're totally fine. Of course, if they do something else, then you may have to adapt to it depending on what it is. And yeah, this build does tax your multitasking quite a bit imo. Since all zergs use 2 overlords for scouting, you generally want to rally your first phoenix to an overlord, your second phoenix to another one, and then move out once your third phoenix comes out, then go up to 4 or 5 phoenix (4 is just enough imo). Try to kill queens and drones while not messing up your macro. Once his bases are not vulnerable enough, try rally jacking drones that are going to his third. It's easy to mess up your own macro with this build if you haven't practiced enough imo, so you should definitely practice it by yourself a couple of times. GL!
To live is to fight, to fight is to live!
Tacopuff
Profile Joined January 2013
Sweden5 Posts
July 05 2013 16:09 GMT
#2673
Thank you all for your answers, I will try it out right now
Kinon
Profile Joined October 2012
Romania207 Posts
July 05 2013 18:32 GMT
#2674
What is the safest/most used tech path in PvT nowadays? 1 colossus into storm? What's the reasoning behind your choice?
Whatson
Profile Blog Joined January 2012
United States5356 Posts
July 05 2013 18:56 GMT
#2675
What's the most annoying thing to play against TvP?
¯\_(シ)_/¯
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-07-05 19:08:31
July 05 2013 19:08 GMT
#2676
Goddamn hellbat drops with 3cc/double ebay behind the drops imo.
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
aldochillbro
Profile Joined July 2012
187 Posts
July 06 2013 00:32 GMT
#2677
Oh yeah teoita I think you said a while ago that when your exams were over you were going to make a pvt guide and that we should remind you. so here's a reminder lol
eNtitY~
Profile Joined January 2007
United States1293 Posts
July 06 2013 01:15 GMT
#2678
I heard Immortal/Archon became the new Meta in PvP, I don't understand how you beat mass colossus with that.
http://www.starcraftdream.com
TokO
Profile Joined July 2011
Norway577 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-07-06 01:41:27
July 06 2013 01:37 GMT
#2679
On July 06 2013 10:15 eNtitY~ wrote:
I heard Immortal/Archon became the new Meta in PvP, I don't understand how you beat mass colossus with that.


I think it plays on the fact that Immortal/Archon/HT based armies reach their 'optimal' composition much quicker than 9/9/9-Colossus\Archon\Immortal. Therefore you can use it to start aggression and leaning on your opponent, expanding more aggressively much quicker than with Colossus based armies. Colossus based armies tend to be a little more vulnerable in the build-up phase.

Key aspects:
- Expand timings
- Double Upgrades
- More Gateways for higher paced game.

Big maps with opportunity for large concaves are of course much better than maps with narrower gaps, e.g. I think Red City LE is unfavourable for Immortal/Archon/HT.

mizU
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States12125 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-07-06 02:05:48
July 06 2013 02:05 GMT
#2680
Recently I've been doing gate expand vs zerg, then getting a robo after some gate pressure and expanding off an immortal or two then teching to storm. I'm having trouble against muta play, as my build revolves around them going for roach hydra. Can I win against muta ling with storm/immortal compositions?
Am I just defending badly?
(Normally I'm talking about 10-12 roachs into mutas on three bases)
if happy ever afters did exist <3 @watamizu_
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