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On July 06 2013 10:15 eNtitY~ wrote: I heard Immortal/Archon became the new Meta in PvP, I don't understand how you beat mass colossus with that.
I think it plays on the fact that Immortal/Archon/HT based armies reach their 'optimal' composition much quicker than 9/9/9-Colossus\Archon\Immortal. Therefore you can use it to start aggression and leaning on your opponent, expanding more aggressively much quicker than with Colossus based armies. Colossus based armies tend to be a little more vulnerable in the build-up phase.
Key aspects: - Expand timings - Double Upgrades - More Gateways for higher paced game.
Big maps with opportunity for large concaves are of course much better than maps with narrower gaps, e.g. I think Red City LE is unfavourable for Immortal/Archon/HT.
It seems that a transition to tempest is a more common reaction against an opponent going colossus, instead of investing in double upgrades.
On July 06 2013 11:05 mizU wrote: Recently I've been doing gate expand vs zerg, then getting a robo after some gate pressure and expanding off an immortal or two then teching to storm. I'm having trouble against muta play, as my build revolves around them going for roach hydra. Can I win against muta ling with storm/immortal compositions? Am I just defending badly? (Normally I'm talking about 10-12 roachs into mutas on three bases)
You cannot beat mutas without phoenix plain and simple. If you're beating muta players with a ground composition then they are messing up hard.
If you're doing gate pressure you need to make a sentry, or two beforehand so you can halu scout and get stargates in time.
On July 05 2013 21:57 See.Blue wrote: Teoita or anyone else master/gm have any PvZ replays they could share going air? I've been practicing all morning and I'd just like to see what I need to tweak to get more into line with how it should be.
Check out the replay pack rsvp released a while ago for full air stuff.
I personally don't really do it, but i've been playing around a lot with going stargate>fast third>3star void, getting 6-8 voids (not entirely sure on the exact count yet) and then switching into zealot/archon like sos did at the wcs finals.
OK very interesting. Does that handle muta decently?
Yeah but you have to be on top of your scouting. You do have 3 stargates, +1 weapons as well as +1 shields up, so as long as you catch wind of what he's doing you can just chrono out 10 phoenixes extremely quickly and be ok.
On July 06 2013 09:32 aldochillbro wrote: Oh yeah teoita I think you said a while ago that when your exams were over you were going to make a pvt guide and that we should remind you. so here's a reminder lol
Still got a while to go before i can start writing T_T
On July 06 2013 10:15 eNtitY~ wrote: I heard Immortal/Archon became the new Meta in PvP, I don't understand how you beat mass colossus with that.
Immortal/archon/chargelot is way stronger in the open field, so you will have a faster third than your opponent. Since he's forced to play defensively until you he reaches a high colossus count, you have time to switch into tempest tech. Once you have 5 tempests up (5 will oneshot colossi), your army is much stronger than his in a straight up fight.
On July 06 2013 11:05 mizU wrote: Recently I've been doing gate expand vs zerg, then getting a robo after some gate pressure and expanding off an immortal or two then teching to storm. I'm having trouble against muta play, as my build revolves around them going for roach hydra. Can I win against muta ling with storm/immortal compositions? Am I just defending badly? (Normally I'm talking about 10-12 roachs into mutas on three bases)
Blink/storm now sucks balls vs mutas because they just eat a storm, regen it and come back at full health. Phoenixes are mandatory, which is one of the reasons why stargate openers are so common in PvZ.
Ahhhh... I have so much trouble when I do stargate openings because I lose to roach hydra pushes. TT I'll just have to remember to make a stargate if I dont scout hydras
On July 06 2013 10:15 eNtitY~ wrote: I heard Immortal/Archon became the new Meta in PvP, I don't understand how you beat mass colossus with that.
I think it plays on the fact that Immortal/Archon/HT based armies reach their 'optimal' composition much quicker than 9/9/9-Colossus\Archon\Immortal. Therefore you can use it to start aggression and leaning on your opponent, expanding more aggressively much quicker than with Colossus based armies. Colossus based armies tend to be a little more vulnerable in the build-up phase.
Key aspects: - Expand timings - Double Upgrades - More Gateways for higher paced game.
Big maps with opportunity for large concaves are of course much better than maps with narrower gaps, e.g. I think Red City LE is unfavourable for Immortal/Archon/HT.
It seems that a transition to tempest is a more common reaction against an opponent going colossus, instead of investing in double upgrades.
Do they always go Stargate to counter colossus? That game was very strange in the sense that Squirtle started colossus at a very late stage of the game. What about a standard robo expand into colossus play?
Yongwha did a blink timing with an immortal drop, taking a third and teching to tempest behind it. The idea is pretty similar, your opponent can't move out because colossus tech is so expensive, so you have time to get stargate tech up.
On July 06 2013 10:15 eNtitY~ wrote: I heard Immortal/Archon became the new Meta in PvP, I don't understand how you beat mass colossus with that.
I think it plays on the fact that Immortal/Archon/HT based armies reach their 'optimal' composition much quicker than 9/9/9-Colossus\Archon\Immortal. Therefore you can use it to start aggression and leaning on your opponent, expanding more aggressively much quicker than with Colossus based armies. Colossus based armies tend to be a little more vulnerable in the build-up phase.
Key aspects: - Expand timings - Double Upgrades - More Gateways for higher paced game.
Big maps with opportunity for large concaves are of course much better than maps with narrower gaps, e.g. I think Red City LE is unfavourable for Immortal/Archon/HT.
It seems that a transition to tempest is a more common reaction against an opponent going colossus, instead of investing in double upgrades.
Do they always go Stargate to counter colossus? That game was very strange in the sense that Squirtle started colossus at a very late stage of the game. What about a standard robo expand into colossus play?
I am trying to remember more pro games where the transition happened. Usually. both players just stay on chargelot/immortal/archon until they get a signifcant lead after a battle/harrass, than they add colossus or tempest (as what happened today in TLHero x Best). The vulnerability seems to be trying to transition first out of it in an even game, for the reasons Teoita said.
In Parting x CJ her0 (PL rnd 6), they both stayed on chargelot/immortal/archon for a long a time. When Parting scouted a robo bay, he immediately started a stargate (both were on 3 bases). He won anyway without using tempests, but the idea was there.
In Stork x Terminator, Stork went for what used to be the standard expand into colossus timing. Terminator only started stargate after setting up a third, when Stork had almost 4 colossus on the field, but still won.
There was a Sase x Sage game in whirlwind at MLG:Anahein where Sase had a small lead and stayed in double ground upgrades chargelot/immortal/archon until maxed, while Sage started adding colossus. Sage managed to defend well until he maxed as well, and set up a good engagement where his colossus army just crushed Sase's. This would be an example of the trouble of staying to to the immortal/archon composition for too long when your opponent is doing something else, even with better upgrades, which is why the tempest transition looks better. I couldn't find a VOD link.
There is not a big enough sample to say for sure that this style is the ultimate PvP game plan, but it seems like the flavor of the month for compositions.
EDIT: I can't believe I hadn't watched the games Teoita linked above. How could I've a missed a Rain x s0s, of all protosses, haha. Thanks!
I have to confess that I'm feeling bad about myself in the past weeks. This is because I'm having 85% win rate against terran doing proxy oracle all-in with 3 gates (Platinum league).
I'm addicted to it. I can't do anything else anymore. Why deal with those sick drops, hellbats, if I can easily win the game with 8min? But it a cheap build that not will help me to get better (though my micro is getting better because of it). And as soon as I face better opponents, less the build will work I guess.
But at the same time I don't want to adopt the standards "macro" BO (like Rain builds, double forges and such) because I think that they are very passive (and boring). I want to put some pressure, make the Terran stays at his base and feel worried. In others words, I want to deal with drops and the strong Terran midgame being aggressive. "The best defense is a good offense"?
Any suggestions? Warp prism harass? DT builds?
I was thinking on keep with the fast oracle at 6:00 minute mark. Is this viable? Seeing my replays I notice that I can send that fast oracle and get some gateways and put down a nexus at 7:00 minute mark. This build would be viable?
Sry for my english. Its not my first language and I'm learning the basics yet.
If you want to put some pressure on the terran, i suggest 3 ways: 1) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=412475 1gate FE into oracle into colossus 2) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=406601 1gate FE into DT drop into colossus 3) There's really no guide for this, but you could go for warp prism+chargelot stuff, going ht and/or dt behind it. There's no guide for it, but you can check out Parting vs Flash on Daybreak, MKP vs Super on Crux DMZ from GSTL, First vs Fantasy on Whirlwind, and a few more games i'm surely forgetting by Flying and Sos for ideas. I'd recommend trying out Parting's build. Note that delayed DT drops (and dt drops and harassemt play in general) are stronger vs terrans going for faster medivac/mine/hellbat type play, and it can get scary if he does a wol style medivac timing (see mkp vs sos on Star Station from WCS Season 1).
Finally, all these styles are far, far harder to execute and way less forgiving than passive play. They are also more fun though, so maybe try it in unranked
On July 06 2013 21:56 Teoita wrote: Don't bother with such a late nexus.
If you want to put some pressure on the terran, i suggest 3 ways: 1) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=412475 1gate FE into oracle into colossus 2) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=406601 1gate FE into DT drop into colossus 3) There's really no guide for this, but you could go for warp prism+chargelot stuff, going ht and/or dt behind it. There's no guide for it, but you can check out Parting vs Flash on Daybreak, MKP vs Super on Crux DMZ from GSTL, First vs Fantasy on Whirlwind, and a few more games i'm surely forgetting by Flying and Sos for ideas. I'd recommend trying out Parting's build. Note that delayed DT drops (and dt drops and harassemt play in general) are stronger vs terrans going for faster medivac/mine/hellbat type play, and it can get scary if he does a wol style medivac timing (see mkp vs sos on Star Station from WCS Season 1).
Finally, all these styles are far, far harder to execute and way less forgiving than passive play. They are also more fun though, so maybe try it in unranked
Ow, that was a fast and great response. Thank you!
I'm reading the threads and watching the vods right now.
In general you think that a late nexus is totally out of question, right?
In PvP, how do you deal with 3gate blink stalker allin? I ask because I'm kind of at a loss for what styles I should be playing, so I've been using that build a lot and I just kind of win like every game I use it. Pretty much the only times I don't are when the other guy goes for immortals off 1 base before expanding, but then I'd say we're even since I can expand, tech to charge+archon while threatening to backstab if he moves out, and if he expands too quick I can usually just kill him anyways.
Example VOD: PartinG v JYP Proleague
So my question is:
1) How do you hold off a fully committed 3gate blink stalker allin? Do you just have to sacrifice the nexus and wait for immortals?
2) Is 3gate blink a viable opener other than as an allin?
One base mine drops can hit between 6 and 8ish minutes depending on how fast he's doing it, hellbat drops between 8 and 9, and then you have the general 10 to 11 minute bio/medivac stuff.
On July 07 2013 20:33 Teoita wrote: Depends on what he's dropping.
One base mine drops can hit between 6 and 8ish minutes depending on how fast he's doing it, hellbat drops between 8 and 9, and then you have the general 10 to 11 minute bio/medivac stuff.
I recently switched to toss and I am totally lost. Back when i played terran, as well as in PvT I always worked well with Day [9]'s idea of convergence points. For example, in TvT a series of convergence points could be 3 rax/1 fac/1 starport, into 7 rax/ 2 fac/ 1 starport (i know these aren't exactly correct.) I have been fairly successful in PvT because i could make a list like this/ However i cannot find anything like this for PvP or PvZ. Could anybody provide me with some of these "convergence points."
On July 08 2013 12:13 DBS wrote: I recently switched to toss and I am totally lost. Back when i played terran, as well as in PvT I always worked well with Day [9]'s idea of convergence points. For example, in TvT a series of convergence points could be 3 rax/1 fac/1 starport, into 7 rax/ 2 fac/ 1 starport (i know these aren't exactly correct.) I have been fairly successful in PvT because i could make a list like this/ However i cannot find anything like this for PvP or PvZ. Could anybody provide me with some of these "convergence points."
They don't really exist as such for these matchups. In PvP, you are going to be reacting heavily to what your opponent has been doing, or going for an all-in timing. You can set a goal for an endgame composition, but it's honestly going to depend heavily on what your opponent is doing, and your infrastructure will be different each game and on different maps.
In PvZ, you're more of a power race. Either choose an all-in timing, or choose an expand build to get your third base up and react to what zerg is doing. Zerg simply has options which force certain reactions, and you won't always have a certain goal to obtain with infrastructure. If Zerg goes mutas, you need to react in time with phoenix. If zerg goes swarm host, you need to get colossi out or start dropping like a madman, and so on and so forth (these are vague, there are extenuating circumstances.)
Protoss is a lot more about intuitive responses or choosing a power build and hitting a timing than terran is.
To clarify: you can have convergence points if you are aiming for an all-in: things your opponent does to mess with your build will delay it, but you can get to your attack anyway, it would just be later, but not if you're playing for a long game, you really need to feel your way through the game more if you aren't hitting an all-in timing.
On July 08 2013 12:13 DBS wrote: I recently switched to toss and I am totally lost. Back when i played terran, as well as in PvT I always worked well with Day [9]'s idea of convergence points. For example, in TvT a series of convergence points could be 3 rax/1 fac/1 starport, into 7 rax/ 2 fac/ 1 starport (i know these aren't exactly correct.) I have been fairly successful in PvT because i could make a list like this/ However i cannot find anything like this for PvP or PvZ. Could anybody provide me with some of these "convergence points."
They don't really exist as such for these matchups. In PvP, you are going to be reacting heavily to what your opponent has been doing, or going for an all-in timing. You can set a goal for an endgame composition, but it's honestly going to depend heavily on what your opponent is doing, and your infrastructure will be different each game and on different maps.
In PvZ, you're more of a power race. Either choose an all-in timing, or choose an expand build to get your third base up and react to what zerg is doing. Zerg simply has options which force certain reactions, and you won't always have a certain goal to obtain with infrastructure. If Zerg goes mutas, you need to react in time with phoenix. If zerg goes swarm host, you need to get colossi out or start dropping like a madman, and so on and so forth (these are vague, there are extenuating circumstances.)
Protoss is a lot more about intuitive responses or choosing a power build and hitting a timing than terran is.
To clarify: you can have convergence points if you are aiming for an all-in: things your opponent does to mess with your build will delay it, but you can get to your attack anyway, it would just be later, but not if you're playing for a long game, you really need to feel your way through the game more if you aren't hitting an all-in timing.
I don't like this response. I think, in general, you still end up with some fairly similar convergence points no matter what kind of tech you do in PvP or PvZ.
For instance, in PvP, on 1 base, you generally have: tech structure + 3 gateways On 2 bases: tech structure + second tech structure + ~4-6 gateways + forge 3 bases: gets a little too complicated
This holds true for most games, whether you open robo, blink, stargate, or DTs. Even in odd circumstances like mass phoenix wars, you still get a second stargate as a "second tech structure", so it's a fairly good rule to go by. The gateway count really depends on what kind of tech you're doing and how aggressive or passive you are, so it varies a lot.
In PvZ, 2-base generally looks like: tech structure + forge + 3-4 gateways On 3-bases: twilight + forge + 6-8 gateways + some kind of tech (colossus, VR, DTs) 4-bases+: Both colossus and templar tech + 10+ gateways
This varies a little bit depending on the situation and how you take your 3rd, but for the most part, your games will generally follow this kind of pattern. Again, the real variable here is gateways depending on the situation, your army comp, etc.
Adding on to that, you can argue that a twilight council doens't really count as a tech structure since you want to time it with your upgrades most of the time.
But yeah, generally, PvT: Robo+1/2 forges+6gates+twilight+archives or colossus bay PvZ: Robo+4gates+stargate+support bay PvP: there really aren't any, pvp midgame is very varied because there are so many styles that are viable.
EPT
