EPTI mean without harcountering it from the beginning... (what SoulKey did I feel on the 2 games he won)
Im totally helpless in the MU right now (Im master)
The HotS Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 65
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v_lm
France202 Posts
I mean without harcountering it from the beginning... (what SoulKey did I feel on the 2 games he won) Im totally helpless in the MU right now (Im master) | ||
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Azerbaijan
United States660 Posts
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DilemaH
Canada402 Posts
On June 11 2013 01:59 Azerbaijan wrote: So my friend that played protoss in WoL just picked up HotS and we`ve been playing together a bit. He has been using all his old builds which are mostly things like 3gate expo in to robo and 4gate. I'm so used to either being proxy 2gated or playing against a ffe on ladder that I have no idea how to react to these older ish builds. If he doesnt expand early should I just sit on 2base until I see his natural go down? Very good question. If he goes nexus first off a gateway in his main and you 15 pool, im pretty sure you may be able to ling/bane bust him to shreds. If youre not comfortable with that, take a moderately fast 3rd and keep an eye on the attack paths. Vs a 1 gate expand which is very standard, take your expo around 1 minute after his goes down. Also, take your gas as you would vs a zerg to get ling speed. If he expands, take your drones off gas at 100 gas. This helps vs any timing. If you dont see him expanding yet, keep them on gas, saturate 1 and 1/2 bases of drones, scout him, throw a spore in both bases w/ a spine at your front. its good to check his base when hes 1 basing to see if its a 4gate, dt rush or stargate rush. Burrow vs a 4gate helps a TON as burrow micro on roaches is rather effective. (4gate comes at 5:47~ if done right. I think). Vs 3 gate robo, I would get lings and roaches, a combenation of both. Lings surround teh sentries and roaches attack any power unit in range, if not then the zealots. Get your lair at 7:00 with any gas timing. I actualy SUCK vs gateway expand. I need someone to get a better response. | ||
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DilemaH
Canada402 Posts
On June 10 2013 22:20 v_lm wrote: How do you deal with sOs PvZ style (game 1 vs Soulkey) i,e, nexus first into 3 base, 3 stargate, shield upgrade, ships weapon upgrade, all of this out of 1 gate, one phoenix denying the scout, and 7 voidrays + mothership core harassing... ? I mean without harcountering it from the beginning... (what SoulKey did I feel on the 2 games he won) Im totally helpless in the MU right now (Im master) I would actualy just go mass queen upon scouting it, add on hydras. I recommend HIGHLY doing multiprong attacks. Like, drop his main and nat with roaches/hydras, burrow when he comes an swing into his third with another force. You eventually should wear him down. If not, I would go SH/spore/viper/hyda/corrupter/infestor like CatZ does in the late game vs toss. The reason for drops is that it abuses his weak gateway defense and forces him to get out of position. Early game though, if he starts mass void attacking you, a giant zergling counter helps. Mass queen once you spot it, as later creep spread HELPS. | ||
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Dalin1337
Poland2 Posts
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willstertben
427 Posts
swarm host viper corruptor infestor spine spore zvt: ultra (ling if he doesnt hellbat) bling infestor queen bl tech switch zvz: roach hydra or mass muta there shouldn't be much of a lategame but it's generally best to allin in mid game at the current meta i feel. especially zvt. | ||
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Henk
Netherlands578 Posts
On June 11 2013 01:59 Azerbaijan wrote: So my friend that played protoss in WoL just picked up HotS and we`ve been playing together a bit. He has been using all his old builds which are mostly things like 3gate expo in to robo and 4gate. I'm so used to either being proxy 2gated or playing against a ffe on ladder that I have no idea how to react to these older ish builds. If he doesnt expand early should I just sit on 2base until I see his natural go down? On June 11 2013 02:11 DilemaH wrote: Very good question. If he goes nexus first off a gateway in his main and you 15 pool, im pretty sure you may be able to ling/bane bust him to shreds. If youre not comfortable with that, take a moderately fast 3rd and keep an eye on the attack paths. Vs a 1 gate expand which is very standard, take your expo around 1 minute after his goes down. Also, take your gas as you would vs a zerg to get ling speed. If he expands, take your drones off gas at 100 gas. This helps vs any timing. If you dont see him expanding yet, keep them on gas, saturate 1 and 1/2 bases of drones, scout him, throw a spore in both bases w/ a spine at your front. its good to check his base when hes 1 basing to see if its a 4gate, dt rush or stargate rush. Burrow vs a 4gate helps a TON as burrow micro on roaches is rather effective. (4gate comes at 5:47~ if done right. I think). Vs 3 gate robo, I would get lings and roaches, a combenation of both. Lings surround teh sentries and roaches attack any power unit in range, if not then the zealots. Get your lair at 7:00 with any gas timing. I actualy SUCK vs gateway expand. I need someone to get a better response. High master zerg. Gateway expands means a couple of things. One: Don't get your third until he takes his natural Two: Get gas as soon as you scout him not going forge first. Get 100 gas for ling speed, then put the drones back on gas. Three: 4gates off a gateway expand don't get +1 attack, which means you don't need roaches (You usually won't have time to get them). A ton of speedlings will deal with it just fine. Just make sure you target down the MsC asap, because timewarp and recall are really annoying. Four: Make sure you have four queens in total - 2 queens at your third base. So produce a third queen at your natural, use it to spread creep then walk to third base. Make another queen there when it pops. Five: Normal gas timings still apply. 6:30 is the magical mark. Scout his natural gases - if he has none, throw down a RW immediately because a gateway attack is coming. If he has 2 gas, this means a tech-heavy build such as immortal sentry or double stargate. One gas usually means some expand build. This is no 100% rule, so also have another overlord which you will sac in his main at around 7:00 to see his tech. That's basically it. | ||
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Azerbaijan
United States660 Posts
On June 11 2013 03:29 Henk wrote: High master zerg. Gateway expands means a couple of things. One: Don't get your third until he takes his natural Two: Get gas as soon as you scout him not going forge first. Get 100 gas for ling speed, then put the drones back on gas. Three: 4gates off a gateway expand don't get +1 attack, which means you don't need roaches (You usually won't have time to get them). A ton of speedlings will deal with it just fine. Just make sure you target down the MsC asap, because timewarp and recall are really annoying. Four: Make sure you have four queens in total - 2 queens at your third base. So produce a third queen at your natural, use it to spread creep then walk to third base. Make another queen there when it pops. Five: Normal gas timings still apply. 6:30 is the magical mark. Scout his natural gases - if he has none, throw down a RW immediately because a gateway attack is coming. If he has 2 gas, this means a tech-heavy build such as immortal sentry or double stargate. One gas usually means some expand build. This is no 100% rule, so also have another overlord which you will sac in his main at around 7:00 to see his tech. That's basically it. Thanks that is very helpful; though my friend is doing a true 4gate with no expo at all. :/ | ||
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DilemaH
Canada402 Posts
On June 11 2013 04:34 Azerbaijan wrote: Thanks that is very helpful; though my friend is doing a true 4gate with no expo at all. :/ Thank you for this post, Henk. Vs 4gate no expo, get like 2-3 spines to finish for the ~5:50 mark, along with speedlings. Roaches are completely optional, however I like 1 gas roach/ling, as getting purely 1 unit I feel is too risky. Spines will not keep you alive, but buy time for your superior economy to eat his fingers (thats right, eat his fingers) If you want to go double gas to hold, go mass roach + burrow. Fun way to hold it. | ||
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willstertben
427 Posts
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TheZanthex
United States144 Posts
Also, I need some help early game ZvT. I'm only mid-master(ish) but I feel like a lot of the time my macro slips up and I end up falling behind going into the midgame. Could anyone recommend a macro-focused speedling build for me to try out? Thanks. It will be appreciated.  | ||
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Falcon-sw
United States322 Posts
New season, placement match. Lose to a Terran in a close match. Ranked 100 in Diamond. Uh... | ||
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Roija
United States84 Posts
Thank you. http://ggtracker.com/matches/3477183 The match Things i noticed: 1: Terrible creep spread 2: 18 minute hive 3: a couple poor engagements | ||
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Luxotican
United Kingdom13 Posts
Recently come back to playing after a long break, but finding the new styles/timings of ZvT quite difficult to adapt too. Infact i'm finding myself just playing a bit 'randomly' not really sticking to any build/timings etc, more so free-style! I Ended up in Masters league top 30 last season, somehow! ZvZ around 50%, ZvP 74% and ZvT 45%... says it all really! Mech seems okay right now, I'm holding with SH/Hydra and eventually pushing with vipers too. However Bio i'm really finding myself lost. could anybody give me some timings within the Terran Bio arsenal? Also, if any body can give me any zerg timings/standard BO's? I feel like i'm late with my lair tech/mutas.. not really knowing when to put my bane nest down etc... I'm just really all over the place right now and could do with a bit of guidance! Cheers, | ||
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Uni1987
Netherlands642 Posts
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willstertben
427 Posts
On June 11 2013 16:46 Roija wrote: I have been having some serious problems vs terran in the lategame(past 10 minutes). It seems like i keep beating his attacks but by the time i get to his base to counter he has enough to stop me and can play defensive behind building and mines. I think my tech is way too late and would appreciate any critism, i feel like i have hit a wall in avt vs high diamond/master players. Any critism would be appreciated. Thank you. http://ggtracker.com/matches/3477183 The match Things i noticed: 1: Terrible creep spread 2: 18 minute hive 3: a couple poor engagements honestly, you should roach bling allin every game vs 3 cc and forget trying to lategame vs terran in this meta. they're SO ridiculously greedy with their 3 cc 2 ebay build that they're inevitably going to have a big advantage if you don't do something aggressive. SO SO SO much more successful to just kill them off before their production starts going crazy. if you want to beat them in a macro game you'll have to be more cost efficient cause they have more income. this is pretty hard against mines and other terran units that are pretty much designed to be cost efficient. so you'll have to have much better micro than him and get out ultra queen infestor ASAP. you will need ultras with lots of tranfuses and infestors and LOTS of spines and spores against drops late game. lings used to be good but if they make any number of hellbats they're pretty much useless supply so just ust them as a quick anti drop force or for a runby. dump your minerals in queens and more spine/spore. also: never attack him in a fortified position, ultras get pretty much hard countered by buildings. try to deny his bases and keep expanding and hope he forgets to drop or something. keep a pack of like 10-16 2-0 mutas all game. if he gets too marauder heavy or if you're far ahead and want to kill them you can try a BL switch. | ||
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RaiZ
2813 Posts
On June 11 2013 21:47 Uni1987 wrote: Just played 16 games, won 9 and lost 7. All SEVEN were against protoss... I'm getting so sick and tired of that matchup. I don't understand that mu anymore either. I'm so fucking sick of that retarded joking race with all those f**king allins they have at their disposal.  | ||
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AKomrade
United States582 Posts
On June 11 2013 23:03 willstertben wrote: honestly, you should roach bling allin every game vs 3 cc and forget trying to lategame vs terran in this meta. they're SO ridiculously greedy with their 3 cc 2 ebay build that they're inevitably going to have a big advantage if you don't do something aggressive. SO SO SO much more successful to just kill them off before their production starts going crazy. if you want to beat them in a macro game you'll have to be more cost efficient cause they have more income. this is pretty hard against mines and other terran units that are pretty much designed to be cost efficient. so you'll have to have much better micro than him and get out ultra queen infestor ASAP. you will need ultras with lots of tranfuses and infestors and LOTS of spines and spores against drops late game. lings used to be good but if they make any number of hellbats they're pretty much useless supply so just ust them as a quick anti drop force or for a runby. dump your minerals in queens and more spine/spore. also: never attack him in a fortified position, ultras get pretty much hard countered by buildings. try to deny his bases and keep expanding and hope he forgets to drop or something. keep a pack of like 10-16 2-0 mutas all game. if he gets too marauder heavy or if you're far ahead and want to kill them you can try a BL switch. How would one perform the roach/bling bust? | ||
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willstertben
427 Posts
check out soulkey vs innovation game 4 for a basic idea of how to do the most effective bust. it's not even necessarily an allin because it will ALWAYS do enough damage for you to get ahead if they opened some greedy build and you have upgrades and 3 saturated bases behind it. if they're too greedy it will outright kill them, it's really difficult for terran to hold, siege tanks or no tanks. it goes like this: you saturate 3 bases, get a macro hatch, 4 queens and get lair and 1-1 upgrades for lings. basically standard. then when lair is done get bling and roach speed at the same time. skip 2-2 for a stronger attack, or start it for a better follow up if you don't think you can outright kill him. when 3 bases are saturated you make about 16 roaches, as many as you can afford from about one production cycle. follow up with pure ling and rally outside his base. take like 2-3 overseers with you, morph as many banelings as you can (you need a lot of banelings!). has to hit before his production starts going into overdrive and he has a big army, so around 11 min in a standard game. you should have around 160+ supply. then just go for it! the attack: split banelings well before you engage and try to tank mine shots with lings. try to micro some banelings to kill his scvs at his nat and send a few lings to his 3rd if he took it. terrans generally aren't very good at defensive multi tasking so chances are he won't even lift off and lose all his scvs. that way you will kill a lot of scvs and even if he survives you will be able to follow up with your standard game (lots of mutas recommended, because his best shot to get back in the game will be miracle drops and chances are he won't be able to be aggressive so mutas can keep him on the defense even longer, also you will have stockpiled a lot of gas probably) or if you did enough damage just do another bust. | ||
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BlasiuS
United States2405 Posts
Here's a short guide: 2 versions: 2 gas and 3 gas 2 gas normal 3 base opening, but cut drone production at 38 (16 at 2 bases + 6 on gas), get warren and nest. Make roaches first, morph banes as roaches arrive outside of opponents base, hit with big slowbane/slowroach/speedling army. Reinforce with ling/bane 3 gas normal 3 base opening, but get 2 more gas as soon as you take 3rd. Cut drone production at 41 (16 at 2 bases + 9 on gas). @ 100 gas, lair. @ 20/80 lair, make roach warren + baneling nest. @ 100% lair, get baneling speed + roach speed. Make roaches first, morph banes as roaches arrive outside of opponents base, hit with big speedbane/speedroach/speedling army. Reinforce with ling/bane | ||
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