EPTAny advice would be greatly appreciated!
The HotS Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 58
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zoglug
United Kingdom56 Posts
Any advice would be greatly appreciated! | ||
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FinBenton
Finland870 Posts
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b0ub0u
Canada445 Posts
On May 28 2013 02:10 zoglug wrote: Hey everyone. Im coming back to SC2 after quite a break (im back in bronze, though i did only get to Silver last time) and im looking for some ideas of current builds for each match up. I dont want exact builds, im sure i can find these online, but just an idea as to what works for each match up. Any advice would be greatly appreciated! At your level just concentrate on building stuffs, spend your money, build workers, learn to expand at the right time and don`t get supply blocked etc... If you want more info this guide might be what you are looking for : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=402758 | ||
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willstertben
427 Posts
they have the same economy as me. if i take a 3rd they can just go kill it with recall and there is pretty much nothing i can do about it. and if its 2 base vs 2 base then he does a 2 base allin that's impossible to hold because we're on even income and he has better units, blink, time warp, force fields. what exactly is zerg supposed to do? | ||
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Raisa
Netherlands30 Posts
On May 28 2013 14:51 willstertben wrote: im high master and i still haven't understood gateway openings from toss at fucking all. what am i supposed to do exactly? i get up hatch first cause of drone scouting and quick speedlings to deny ~6 min aggression and then try to take 3rd. they have the same economy as me. if i take a 3rd they can just go kill it with recall and there is pretty much nothing i can do about it. and if its 2 base vs 2 base then he does a 2 base allin that's impossible to hold because we're on even income and he has better units, blink, time warp, force fields. what exactly is zerg supposed to do? Gateway opening: Take early gas for speed. Pull off drones afterwards. Take your third base when he takes his natural. Make an extra queen and walk it to your third, so you have two queens there (Required to deal with msc + zealot + stalker harass). Gas timings still apply - no natural gas at 6:30? Most likely gateway all in - get roach warren. | ||
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fezvez
France3021 Posts
On May 28 2013 14:51 willstertben wrote: im high master and i still haven't understood gateway openings from toss at fucking all. what am i supposed to do exactly? i get up hatch first cause of drone scouting and quick speedlings to deny ~6 min aggression and then try to take 3rd. they have the same economy as me. if i take a 3rd they can just go kill it with recall and there is pretty much nothing i can do about it. and if its 2 base vs 2 base then he does a 2 base allin that's impossible to hold because we're on even income and he has better units, blink, time warp, force fields. what exactly is zerg supposed to do? Random master player here (so I know roughly both sides of the match-up) First of all, you can't take a quick third like you are used to. It is not important because you are still on a better economy. No allin really works to deny the protoss from taking his natural (if he does the standard 18 core into nexus/MC into walling the natural with 3 gates). So, focus on getting a better economy. Speedlings are great to control the map until 6~6:30. It is important to know the timing of warp gate. Either you counter the potential push with speedlings or with roaches. You just need to make a swell of units (even if nothing comes). I prefer to make roaches personally. The hard part is getting a third safely. Basically, the standard protoss openers are either 4 gate (with or without +1, this is why I prefer roaches, they are good in both cases), or stargate. A void ray can easily deny your third if you don't prepare accordingly. So, my advice is to make two queens just before you reach full saturation on two bases. They are always useful anyway. Then take your third. In the meantime, park a lings to see if he moves out, and all your other units (the swell you made around 6:00) hidden close to the protoss base. The whole point is that if they 2 base allin you, you can delay the push by countering at his natural (once again, roaches are better at those things). The most important thing for the zerg is to know that the push is actually coming (if it ever comes). Putting lings on the attack path is mandatory. Put them again if they are chased by the MC. Normally, you would have a decent two base and a half economy and you can hold him by delaying the push with a counter. If he goes for a third, drop a hydra den and try to make a big +1/+1 speedroach/speedhydra push to deny it. TL;DR : Roaches to defend a potential 4-gate. Two additional queens to spread creep and take the third. Lings to spot the map, small force to counter to delay a potential 2 base allin. Two base and a half economy of speedroaches and speedlings should hold 2 base allins. Roach hydra if nothing comes. Edit : Why are roaches good against gate expand? They don't care about +1 timings as opposed to lings. They destroy zealots. They are better to do counters. They let you more larva for drones. You still need to do other units, but that is after 6:30 | ||
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willstertben
427 Posts
protoss has more workers early before injects start to really kick in, then it evens out at 35~ workers after which zerg is able to get a lot more a lot quicker. but against gateway openings you can't really make that many more because their attacks can come so much more quickly. so it's pretty much the same economy. and on same economy it's virtually impossible to hold 2 base allins. am i missing something here? only build that i have been able to get in a comfortable position with is 3 hatch before pool but that's just pure gamble because he can just 4gate and zerg dies. | ||
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Blade2322
Japan99 Posts
On May 28 2013 14:51 willstertben wrote: im high master and i still haven't understood gateway openings from toss at fucking all. what am i supposed to do exactly? i get up hatch first cause of drone scouting and quick speedlings to deny ~6 min aggression and then try to take 3rd. they have the same economy as me. if i take a 3rd they can just go kill it with recall and there is pretty much nothing i can do about it. and if its 2 base vs 2 base then he does a 2 base allin that's impossible to hold because we're on even income and he has better units, blink, time warp, force fields. what exactly is zerg supposed to do? U need to scout the protoss alot if they are doing a gateway expo. To see if they are going for harrass, or a quick timing attack (9 min) or a later 2 base timing around 11 min+. Need to scout around 6 min then again at 9 min. IF they are going for some sort of harrass u need to set up to deny it then take a third. If they are going for a faster 2 base (9 min) timing attack u need to prepare for it and stay on 2 base to shut it down, also protoss usually cut workers for 9 min timings. If they are going for a later timing 11 min + u should be fine taking a third after the 6 min scout and going from there. Also SH are very good at holding timing attacks. :D Or u could always 2 base them with an awesome 2 base Sh nydus attack  http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=master_replays But yea just scout alot.  | ||
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Lucoda
Ireland183 Posts
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Giganthrax
Serbia19 Posts
Is there a way to know if they're going robo or stargate play before they actually start pumping air/colossi? At what time do stargate/robo go down normally? I usually sac overlord around 6 min but it has been hit or miss so far. | ||
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willstertben
427 Posts
On May 29 2013 01:05 Giganthrax wrote: Scouting a toss: Is there a way to know if they're going robo or stargate play before they actually start pumping air/colossi? At what time do stargate/robo go down normally? I usually sac overlord around 6 min but it has been hit or miss so far. you talking forge FE it seems. the only way to be 100% sure every game is to get early overlord speed. imo it's not really a good idea to sac that much economy though. just try to get a really efficient scout with the best chance to see what you want to see: between 6-7 min is a good time to scout. to get better chances to see what he's doing you can use two overlords: you sac one in his main as usual, you use the one on his nat to scout the outskirts of his nat, to see what you can see without it dying and also go suicide 1 or 2 lings into his front to check there if you see nothing. you have a pretty good chance to know what's coming that way. if you can't scout him properly just get one safety spore in each base and play on as usual and make an overseer once lair is done. it's not THAT big of a deal unless you have very specific responses. | ||
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schwza
67 Posts
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GenesisX
Canada4267 Posts
On May 28 2013 15:54 willstertben wrote: but how am i supposed to get a better economy if i can't take a 3rd? the economy will be pretty much the exact same. protoss has more workers early before injects start to really kick in, then it evens out at 35~ workers after which zerg is able to get a lot more a lot quicker. but against gateway openings you can't really make that many more because their attacks can come so much more quickly. so it's pretty much the same economy. and on same economy it's virtually impossible to hold 2 base allins. am i missing something here? only build that i have been able to get in a comfortable position with is 3 hatch before pool but that's just pure gamble because he can just 4gate and zerg dies. you don't always need a better economy to beat protoss. Thats why lots of zergs nowadays go very ling heavy with fast upgrades to control the midgame. They then fast tech to ultralisks and go for a big 3 base ultra/queen/infestor timing (see Leenock @ Dreamhack). To hold the gateways timings you usually want a roach warren. They are much more cost and larvae efficient and if you are willing to invest 150 minerals (lol) into tech you will hold pushes a lot easier. But yeah, if you like to be economically ahead of protoss, try to take a third as soon as you hold off their 4 gate 2 base pressure thing. On May 29 2013 11:41 schwza wrote: In ZvT I've been opening roach/hydra because I'm terrible with ling/bane/muta. In the later game I've been trying to figure out if it's best to add vipers, infestors, or swarm host (or some combination). I guess my current thought is bio+tank or mech -> vipers, pure bio -> infestors, bio+mines -> swarm host. My other question is should I ever transition out? I have 3/3 with range, but no melee upgrades so ultras or brood lords would have bad dps. I am diamond BTW. roach hydra generally doesn't carry very well into the late game, but if you want to try it always go vipers. Maybe mix in a few infestors, but you really want to get vipers out because they nullify any large threats to your composition eg. tanks. Blinding cloud allows you to fight cost efficiently with 3/3 bio. You usually won't have that big of a problem against mines with roach hydra since you can range them anyways. I suggest you try to end the game earlier with roach/hydra as their low mobility makes them weaker in the late game (in my opinion). Try to utilize drops and nydus a lot. Another alternative is to upgrade melee alongside your other upgrades and just transition into ultra/infestor in the late game which is pretty easy to control. I think ultras are the strongest t3 Zerg has atm. | ||
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willstertben
427 Posts
On May 29 2013 13:07 GenesisX wrote: you don't always need a better economy to beat protoss. Thats why lots of zergs nowadays go very ling heavy with fast upgrades to control the midgame. They then fast tech to ultralisks and go for a big 3 base ultra/queen/infestor timing (see Leenock @ Dreamhack). To hold the gateways timings you usually want a roach warren. They are much more cost and larvae efficient and if you are willing to invest 150 minerals (lol) into tech you will hold pushes a lot easier. But yeah, if you like to be economically ahead of protoss, try to take a third as soon as you hold off their 4 gate 2 base pressure thing. roach hydra generally doesn't carry very well into the late game, but if you want to try it always go vipers. Maybe mix in a few infestors, but you really want to get vipers out because they nullify any large threats to your composition eg. tanks. Blinding cloud allows you to fight cost efficiently with 3/3 bio. You usually won't have that big of a problem against mines with roach hydra since you can range them anyways. I suggest you try to end the game earlier with roach/hydra as their low mobility makes them weaker in the late game (in my opinion). Try to utilize drops and nydus a lot. Another alternative is to upgrade melee alongside your other upgrades and just transition into ultra/infestor in the late game which is pretty easy to control. I think ultras are the strongest t3 Zerg has atm. sure but roaches are sososo bad now with time warp and shit. zealot + time warp actually tear apart roaches so hard. so it's about having greater numbers, but how is that really possible if you can't get the economy and larvae quickly enough? also that ling ultra thing is a complete allin and a bad build that will be figured out sooner than later and never work again. immortals + archon counter ultra ling way too hard for it to make it viable against someone who properly prepares for it. | ||
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RaFox17
Finland4581 Posts
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syno
Switzerland150 Posts
So, i've also started watching some Zerg streams (mostly stephano and Jaedong). Lets say they have a group of lings on the Hotkey "1". The larvae pop, they select all larvae, build more zerglings, and kinda add them instantly to their main army, before they even pop. So the Waypoint is always where the main army is (or moves to). Are they doing this by simply build the lings, press shift + 1, then control + 1? Or is there a different, easier trick to do that? | ||
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Insoleet
France1806 Posts
On May 30 2013 15:54 syno wrote: Hey guys, i've just started playing Zerg, so this might be kind of a silly question for some of you. So, i've also started watching some Zerg streams (mostly stephano and Jaedong). Lets say they have a group of lings on the Hotkey "1". The larvae pop, they select all larvae, build more zerglings, and kinda add them instantly to their main army, before they even pop. So the Waypoint is always where the main army is (or moves to). Are they doing this by simply build the lings, press shift + 1, then control + 1? Or is there a different, easier trick to do that? ctrl+click the eggs, shitf+1 to add them to your army. | ||
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syno
Switzerland150 Posts
On May 30 2013 16:17 Insoleet wrote: ctrl+click the eggs, shitf+1 to add them to your army. What if you have like 5 hatches? You have to jump to every single hatch? And what if some eggs are Overlords or drones or whatever? | ||
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DnameIN
Poland146 Posts
1. select all larvae 2. build lings 3. without deselecting control+click eggs inside panel, not on the ground, then shift+hotkey 4. select all larvae 5. build mutas 6. ctrl+click eggs inside panel, then shift+hotkey ect. Maybe thats just me, but it actually took me some time to understand how it works. | ||
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syno
Switzerland150 Posts
 Thanks a lot sir! | ||
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