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On June 01 2013 19:09 willstertben wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2013 18:29 CommanderS wrote:On June 01 2013 18:11 MoonCricket wrote:On June 01 2013 15:48 courtpanda wrote:
probably been asked before, cant find more recent advice.
how do you hold proxy 2 rax (like innovation's) in ZvT Check out Soul Key's recent response in the GSL, which is basically Hatch cancel into a Baneling bust. I'm curious if this really is a viable response or something that only works if the terran doesn't know how to react to it. nah only worked because 1) 2 of innovations bunkers were splashable with blings, 2) innovation did a 5 depot walloff, losing all of them to 4 blings into massive supply block, 3) he tried to make reactor helions but busting the bunkers in your nat with blings is the only somewhat good way to react to having bunkers at your nat and it's nothing new either. the best response is to make a pool right after the hatch (15 hatch 14pool) and use the creep + slow ling + drone to fight marines while you make a spine and one queen at your nat. also dont get pool first! that might be counter intuitive but you actually NEED the creep to be able to defend against 2 rax.
While Innovation's building placement contributed to his loss, I doubt Soulkey would've gambled on an unprepared response to an 11/11 unless he was confident in it being a viable build order reaction. You definitely don't need the 2nd hatch to defend the bunker rush fwiw.
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On June 01 2013 22:07 Malhavoc wrote:
Talking about creep spread.. I'm decent at it, but once my opponent kills the front "active" tumors, it becomes hard to regain terrain with creep, cause I have to bring queens to the front line (and I lose injects this way). Are there some tricks I am unaware of, like for example keeping some active tumors behind, and don't just send them all to the creep borders as I expand it?
in my opinion it's good to keep one creep slave queen in zvt always. in the other matchups it's not THAT vital to keep a good creep spread so i think it's better to just respread with queen from 3rd or something.
On June 01 2013 22:12 MoonCricket wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2013 19:09 willstertben wrote:On June 01 2013 18:29 CommanderS wrote:On June 01 2013 18:11 MoonCricket wrote:On June 01 2013 15:48 courtpanda wrote:
probably been asked before, cant find more recent advice.
how do you hold proxy 2 rax (like innovation's) in ZvT Check out Soul Key's recent response in the GSL, which is basically Hatch cancel into a Baneling bust. I'm curious if this really is a viable response or something that only works if the terran doesn't know how to react to it. nah only worked because 1) 2 of innovations bunkers were splashable with blings, 2) innovation did a 5 depot walloff, losing all of them to 4 blings into massive supply block, 3) he tried to make reactor helions but busting the bunkers in your nat with blings is the only somewhat good way to react to having bunkers at your nat and it's nothing new either. the best response is to make a pool right after the hatch (15 hatch 14pool) and use the creep + slow ling + drone to fight marines while you make a spine and one queen at your nat. also dont get pool first! that might be counter intuitive but you actually NEED the creep to be able to defend against 2 rax. While Innovation's building placement contributed to his loss, I doubt Soulkey would've gambled on an unprepared response to an 11/11 unless he was confident in it being a viable build order reaction. You definitely don't need the 2nd hatch to defend the bunker rush fwiw.
well.. even with all the errors innovation made that was still somewhat close so i really don't think it's a good response to go allin with it straight after.
i am pretty sure you do need the nat creep for holding a really good 2 rax because he can just outmicro you HARD if you don't have the move speed bonus on your lings. also you can't make a spine and he can just place bunkers wherever he wants. it all depends on terran micro though, if his control is sloppy you can hold comfortably without creep there i'm sure.
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I neeeeeeeeeed help in ZvsT. High gold player vs master on ladder I know it's really hard for gold to win vs master but still i think i play good.
Can someone say where i go wrong and what to improve ?
http://drop.sc/339586
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master zerg no clue what to do in zvp.
just getting back into the game and ive just sort of been winging it and going 3 hatch before gas if they go ffe and if its gate (which i find out super late cause im relying on ovie, should i drone scout?) i just add a gas in earlier for ling speed and delay my 3rd a bit.
im usually fine if i get to mid/late game on even terms but ive been having problems with tosses going gate first and blocking my expo with a pylon/core and expoing immediately behind it. in wol you could punish this by roach/ling allin-ing and it was usually pretty effective to at least put the game back to normal. but now with mothership core, i feel like everything protoss does now is completely safe which leaves a ton more room for the protoss to be abusive early game. and if you just kill the block and expo behind him he gets his nexus finished before yours is even half done. how do you guys deal with this sort of pylon shenanigans? just kill the pylon/core and play from behind? im clueless about it and its really pissing me off.
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On June 02 2013 06:54 joon wrote:
master zerg no clue what to do in zvp.
just getting back into the game and ive just sort of been winging it and going 3 hatch before gas if they go ffe and if its gate (which i find out super late cause im relying on ovie, should i drone scout?) i just add a gas in earlier for ling speed and delay my 3rd a bit.
im usually fine if i get to mid/late game on even terms but ive been having problems with tosses going gate first and blocking my expo with a pylon/core and expoing immediately behind it. in wol you could punish this by roach/ling allin-ing and it was usually pretty effective to at least put the game back to normal. but now with mothership core, i feel like everything protoss does now is completely safe which leaves a ton more room for the protoss to be abusive early game. and if you just kill the block and expo behind him he gets his nexus finished before yours is even half done. how do you guys deal with this sort of pylon shenanigans? just kill the pylon/core and play from behind? im clueless about it and its really pissing me off.
So he.. puts a core at your natural?
Sounds like that would delay his own build quite a lot - just kill the core and expand. Guess it's basically the same as ebay block from terran. You don't want to take your expo at your third - because it would be near impossible to defend vs an early gateway all in after a gateway opening from him.
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Platinum Zerg here (so my micro is lacking  ). In ZvT, how do you set up flanks with your hotkeys? Do you bind lings and banes together in different flank positions? Do you bind lings and banes into separate hotkeys and manually flank? I've always played by binding the units separately (because that's what I've read on the forums to always hotkey lings and banes separaely) and attacking but I feel like if one side gets crushed, it'll all fall apart.
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On June 02 2013 10:30 learning88 wrote:Platinum Zerg here (so my micro is lacking ). In ZvT, how do you set up flanks with your hotkeys? Do you bind lings and banes together in different flank positions? Do you bind lings and banes into separate hotkeys and manually flank? I've always played by binding the units separately (because that's what I've read on the forums to always hotkey lings and banes separaely) and attacking but I feel like if one side gets crushed, it'll all fall apart.
my unit hotkeys for muta/ling/bane are as follows:
1 - muta
2 - ling/bane
3 - bane
this makes moving around the map much easier and then when you need to attack just a-move with 2 and move command the banes into the marines with 3. and for flanks i generally just split them up with my mouse and control the flank with the minimap to make sure all my units come in at the same time.
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On June 02 2013 06:54 joon wrote:
master zerg no clue what to do in zvp.
just getting back into the game and ive just sort of been winging it and going 3 hatch before gas if they go ffe and if its gate (which i find out super late cause im relying on ovie, should i drone scout?) i just add a gas in earlier for ling speed and delay my 3rd a bit.
im usually fine if i get to mid/late game on even terms but ive been having problems with tosses going gate first and blocking my expo with a pylon/core and expoing immediately behind it. in wol you could punish this by roach/ling allin-ing and it was usually pretty effective to at least put the game back to normal. but now with mothership core, i feel like everything protoss does now is completely safe which leaves a ton more room for the protoss to be abusive early game. and if you just kill the block and expo behind him he gets his nexus finished before yours is even half done. how do you guys deal with this sort of pylon shenanigans? just kill the pylon/core and play from behind? im clueless about it and its really pissing me off.
block his nexus as well with a hatch make 4 or 6 lings and go kill the blocking stuff at your nat. if you see his probe stick one ling to it! when you killed off the pylon and core cancel the hatch at his nat, make an evo on the residual creep there and build your expansion.
but: keep an eye out for 4gate!
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On June 02 2013 13:41 willstertben wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2013 06:54 joon wrote:
master zerg no clue what to do in zvp.
just getting back into the game and ive just sort of been winging it and going 3 hatch before gas if they go ffe and if its gate (which i find out super late cause im relying on ovie, should i drone scout?) i just add a gas in earlier for ling speed and delay my 3rd a bit.
im usually fine if i get to mid/late game on even terms but ive been having problems with tosses going gate first and blocking my expo with a pylon/core and expoing immediately behind it. in wol you could punish this by roach/ling allin-ing and it was usually pretty effective to at least put the game back to normal. but now with mothership core, i feel like everything protoss does now is completely safe which leaves a ton more room for the protoss to be abusive early game. and if you just kill the block and expo behind him he gets his nexus finished before yours is even half done. how do you guys deal with this sort of pylon shenanigans? just kill the pylon/core and play from behind? im clueless about it and its really pissing me off. block his nexus as well with a hatch make 4 or 6 lings and go kill the blocking stuff at your nat. if you see his probe stick one ling to it! when you killed off the pylon and core cancel the hatch at his nat, make an evo on the residual creep there and build your expansion. but: keep an eye out for 4gate!
personally, i dont think its worth all the resources to do all that. plus im trying to avoid drone scouting because i feel ovies are mostly sufficient.
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On June 02 2013 14:28 joon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2013 13:41 willstertben wrote:On June 02 2013 06:54 joon wrote:
master zerg no clue what to do in zvp.
just getting back into the game and ive just sort of been winging it and going 3 hatch before gas if they go ffe and if its gate (which i find out super late cause im relying on ovie, should i drone scout?) i just add a gas in earlier for ling speed and delay my 3rd a bit.
im usually fine if i get to mid/late game on even terms but ive been having problems with tosses going gate first and blocking my expo with a pylon/core and expoing immediately behind it. in wol you could punish this by roach/ling allin-ing and it was usually pretty effective to at least put the game back to normal. but now with mothership core, i feel like everything protoss does now is completely safe which leaves a ton more room for the protoss to be abusive early game. and if you just kill the block and expo behind him he gets his nexus finished before yours is even half done. how do you guys deal with this sort of pylon shenanigans? just kill the pylon/core and play from behind? im clueless about it and its really pissing me off. block his nexus as well with a hatch make 4 or 6 lings and go kill the blocking stuff at your nat. if you see his probe stick one ling to it! when you killed off the pylon and core cancel the hatch at his nat, make an evo on the residual creep there and build your expansion. but: keep an eye out for 4gate! personally, i dont think its worth all the resources to do all that. plus im trying to avoid drone scouting because i feel ovies are mostly sufficient.
if this was WOL sure. but for hots i feel like you really need to drone scout against toss especially on all these super long maps to know how to react properly. gas or no gas? hatch first, maybe even 3 hatch before pool? cancel hatch cause proxy gates? does he get 1 gas or 2? all these questions solved by a simple drone scout.
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In ZvZ, when it comes down to ling/bane wars, do you manually detonate the banes? I tend to move close to the lings with my banes when they're distracted and then a-move but sometimes I end up just running alongside them when they retreat.
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depends on how much delay you have.
the best baneling hits possible are from manual detonation but when you just have too much delay then it might be better to attack move in some situations (but you would want to avoid baneling wars as much as possible).
overall though manual detonation is by far the most efficient way.
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On June 02 2013 16:06 learning88 wrote:
In ZvZ, when it comes down to ling/bane wars, do you manually detonate the banes? I tend to move close to the lings with my banes when they're distracted and then a-move but sometimes I end up just running alongside them when they retreat.
tbh nope, you don't manually detonate.
What you usually do is attack with your lings, with your banelings right behind. Then pull back with your lings so his lings run into your banelings. Then just a-move with your banelings.
Íf he splits 2 lings and targets a baneling, move your banelings backwards (DON'T A-MOVE) and attack with your lings.
Takes some practice but works wonders - lingbling wars are one of the most micro intensive things in sc so you won't get it right the first time.
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Nothing feels better than killing every terran unit but six marines and four medivacs and then watch them kill every remaining zergling and mutalisk you have.
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I'm struggling a lot in Z vs Z right now. I'm in Diamond League and I can't seem to beat any Z players who go pool first, hatch and pushesh early. I scout in every game and get overlord upgrade so I can keep scouting without losing units, very early in the game. But even if I hold off the first attack with spine-crawlers and roaches I just seem to get out macro'd. Roaches are slow and I can't move them out of my base against lings
Am I forced to deploy same tactic as them? Early 2 hatch ling bane, counter = same?
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pretty much yes. roaches are better at defending 2 bases but it's hard to get a 3rd and you can't move out of your base.
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On June 03 2013 03:20 dehdar wrote:I'm struggling a lot in Z vs Z right now. I'm in Diamond League and I can't seem to beat any Z players who go pool first, hatch and pushesh early. I scout in every game and get overlord upgrade so I can keep scouting without losing units, very early in the game. But even if I hold off the first attack with spine-crawlers and roaches I just seem to get out macro'd. Roaches are slow and I can't move them out of my base against lings Am I forced to deploy same tactic as them? Early 2 hatch ling bane, counter = same?
What are they hitting you with? I suspect it's just a heavy speedling push, if that's the case, you'll wanna opt out of the overlord upgrade, and drop a baneling nest down, and just make speedling/baneling. Grab one evo and upgrade +1 carapace. Then macro up. Don't grab lair until the first push is done with and you don't see a second coming. try and spread overlords across the path between bases if you can and aren't already. You're now in a defensive position, and you need to do 2 at natural will commonly suffice, also an extra queen will help too. Roaches go down hard to lings because their melee attack is not as strong and if they get surrounded they're almost useless.
If he's hitting roaches early, then you should have more than adequate time to scout this, put up a couple spines, grab another queen and stack some lings. Because he won't have a decent roach force that can hold up to such things, then move to a muta build or get swarm hosts and hydras.
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guys, what is the go-to strat for zvp late game nowadays? im completely fucking lost.
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i'm having some serious trouble in ZvP also. it seems like the timing for defending your third against Protoss off of two bases is far too large and far too vulnerable.
is there a build for 2base baneling bust all-in or something similar that I can do? defending Protoss pushes and fighting their late game composition is just way too stressful for me.
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On June 03 2013 04:02 Creegz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2013 03:20 dehdar wrote:I'm struggling a lot in Z vs Z right now. I'm in Diamond League and I can't seem to beat any Z players who go pool first, hatch and pushesh early. I scout in every game and get overlord upgrade so I can keep scouting without losing units, very early in the game. But even if I hold off the first attack with spine-crawlers and roaches I just seem to get out macro'd. Roaches are slow and I can't move them out of my base against lings Am I forced to deploy same tactic as them? Early 2 hatch ling bane, counter = same? What are they hitting you with? I suspect it's just a heavy speedling push, if that's the case, you'll wanna opt out of the overlord upgrade, and drop a baneling nest down, and just make speedling/baneling. Grab one evo and upgrade +1 carapace. Then macro up. Don't grab lair until the first push is done with and you don't see a second coming. try and spread overlords across the path between bases if you can and aren't already. You're now in a defensive position, and you need to do 2 at natural will commonly suffice, also an extra queen will help too. Roaches go down hard to lings because their melee attack is not as strong and if they get surrounded they're almost useless. If he's hitting roaches early, then you should have more than adequate time to scout this, put up a couple spines, grab another queen and stack some lings. Because he won't have a decent roach force that can hold up to such things, then move to a muta build or get swarm hosts and hydras.
Thanks a lot. That makes good sense. I was getting frustrated with ZvsZ, since I don't want to resort to tactics such as 6 pool + 2 spine crawlers or other all ins 
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EPT
