I'm thinking it comes down to drone micro, but I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong micro-wise -- trying to mineral stack and attack, but it doesn't seem to be working right? Maybe I don't know how to mineral stack. Anyone point me at a decent guide/tutorial on what I should be doing to hold these?
I am not sure of what changes would exist for HotS, but I think most of the guide is still applicable. Also I don't think Blizz has changed mineral stacking mechanism.
On June 03 2013 11:21 JohnJohnson wrote: Need help from those who are familiar with 10 pool openings in zvz:
I've been doing 10 pool openings just as something different. Alot of times I'm able to cancel their nat, especially if they went 15 hatch. The issue I'm having though, is figuring out how I should be transitioning.
I make no more than 10 lings usually, but I'm not sure if it's best to get a queen and gas first, then try and expand, or try and expand while my lings are out, BEFORE getting queen/gas.
Another issue I have , is when I open 10 pool, and he went 13/13 gas/pool , or a similar opening. Should I delay my expo at that point, and gas myself, for banes?
First if you 10 pool it's best to drone scout and see the hatch timing because if they did not go hatch first its best to not build any ling and take an expo. I remember a game Nestea played where he 10 pooled but made 0 lings because the opponent didn't go hatch first. He went into the gassless play where you defend with spines and queens. Unless you are planning and going all in off it with speed and or banes check the hatch timing.
It depends on what you do, there is the 10 pool with speed which is more allinish because you have less minerals. If you 10 pool and you cancel the hatch I would expand and get the queen and skip gas for the moment and defend with spines and queens as your mineral income will be lower unless you did some major damage. As for transitions Most 10 pools go into roach play especially now with the spore buff.
For your question about 13/13 (I assume you mean 14/14) take your natural but he will have speed before you and a better mineral income so try to play catchup and defend with spines and queens. You can get a little gas and go for baneling nest before speed if you are super worried he will do a big attack. Otherwise the gassless play will work okay (Not too sure as I don't see 14/14 very often anymore) I'm not the best expert on cheese but this is just what I have observed playing against it. Hope this helps.
Thanks for the lengthy response. This is helpful.
I've been trying this gas less transition, but I still am getting super stomped vs 13/13 gas/pool speedling bane all ins. I'll show up with my 10 pool lings, and they have no hatch, they have 13/13 so they can easily defend. So I immediately send my lings back, and expo behind all this. 2 queens and lings, 1 spine to move down, but they just have too much ling bane too fast. I eventually get over run, and even if I do miraculously survive, it turns into like 15 minutes of me on the defense, while they freely expand.
What is the standard build against toss? What should my unit composition be if toss goes into void ray heavy with a ground army?
Is mutas still standard in zvz? Or should I be going for roaches off 2 base? If my opponent goes for muta when I go roach what should I do? When should I put down the roach warren and evo chambers?m
What is the build order for 2 base roach aggression vs greedy terrans? Does this only work if they are going fast 3 cc?
On June 05 2013 01:09 mokumoku wrote: What is the standard build against toss? What should my unit composition be if toss goes into void ray heavy with a ground army?
Is mutas still standard in zvz? Or should I be going for roaches off 2 base? If my opponent goes into muta will I have to get hydras and infestors?
What is the build order for 2 base roach aggression vs greedy terrans? Does this only work if they are going 3 base?
vs P Opening it depends. If they go for gateway opening you cannot go fast third. Go pool hatch gas (or hatch pool gas if they let you), get speed, pull drone off gas. Make some lings for map control, check if they wall off with 3 gateways (means 4gate pressure) or with a forge (you can chill). Take your third once you either defend the 4gate or you spot the forge. This is one way to deal with it, the other is using roaches but I dislike it. If they go for forge opening you go for the standard fast third BUT get 2 queens instead of 1 in the third base because of the standard msc zealot pressure.
Vs voidray and ground army I take it that you mean many many voids and few colossi and ht. 10-ish swarm hosts, hydra,viper and spore wall. This can deal with the protoss deathball but if you don't want to get to this stage (it's extremely boring) you have a good shot at punishing such play with a roach hydra corruptor/viper max out.
vsZ Muta standard? I only 10pool speed in this match up(I think it's an abomination) so what I say isn't direct experience. The muta usage surely dropped, before the spores 4shot'd mutas now they 3shot them. In pro streams i've seen a lot of roach play (with hydras/infestors) like in old WoL. Mutas are still used but they aren't the only way of playing it out now. If your opponent goes mutas I suggest getting infestors before hydras. Put spores in your base, get your third before they do and pressure the opponent's third base right before mutas pop. I am pretty bad at the match up so, again, take what I say with a grain of salt.
vsT you probably mean this one: 15h,16p,3:10gas(17 I think, I go with time on gas),28RW(make the overlords at 9 and 16 and supply block yourself until you put RW),3 overlords and make all the roaches you want. You can go up to 12 (first 8 will be built instantly, the other 4 a bit later). tip: make it so that the last 4 roaches come out of the natural instead of the main so they get closer to the others.
On June 05 2013 02:54 Insoleet wrote: Is there any opening out there where the zerg can be ahead of a terran doing hellbats drops into double upgrade + 3CC ?
I just cant find any...
a roach hydra max allin with 2-2 is pretty hard to stop if you defend the hellbats well.
On June 03 2013 11:21 JohnJohnson wrote: Need help from those who are familiar with 10 pool openings in zvz:
I've been doing 10 pool openings just as something different. Alot of times I'm able to cancel their nat, especially if they went 15 hatch. The issue I'm having though, is figuring out how I should be transitioning.
I make no more than 10 lings usually, but I'm not sure if it's best to get a queen and gas first, then try and expand, or try and expand while my lings are out, BEFORE getting queen/gas.
Another issue I have , is when I open 10 pool, and he went 13/13 gas/pool , or a similar opening. Should I delay my expo at that point, and gas myself, for banes?
First if you 10 pool it's best to drone scout and see the hatch timing because if they did not go hatch first its best to not build any ling and take an expo. I remember a game Nestea played where he 10 pooled but made 0 lings because the opponent didn't go hatch first. He went into the gassless play where you defend with spines and queens. Unless you are planning and going all in off it with speed and or banes check the hatch timing.
It depends on what you do, there is the 10 pool with speed which is more allinish because you have less minerals. If you 10 pool and you cancel the hatch I would expand and get the queen and skip gas for the moment and defend with spines and queens as your mineral income will be lower unless you did some major damage. As for transitions Most 10 pools go into roach play especially now with the spore buff.
For your question about 13/13 (I assume you mean 14/14) take your natural but he will have speed before you and a better mineral income so try to play catchup and defend with spines and queens. You can get a little gas and go for baneling nest before speed if you are super worried he will do a big attack. Otherwise the gassless play will work okay (Not too sure as I don't see 14/14 very often anymore) I'm not the best expert on cheese but this is just what I have observed playing against it. Hope this helps.
Thanks for the lengthy response. This is helpful.
I've been trying this gas less transition, but I still am getting super stomped vs 13/13 gas/pool speedling bane all ins. I'll show up with my 10 pool lings, and they have no hatch, they have 13/13 so they can easily defend. So I immediately send my lings back, and expo behind all this. 2 queens and lings, 1 spine to move down, but they just have too much ling bane too fast. I eventually get over run, and even if I do miraculously survive, it turns into like 15 minutes of me on the defense, while they freely expand.
Speedling openings will basically stomp gasless 10 pools almost every time. Its the risk you take. however You need to get gas ASAP and try to catch up. Even then, you are way behind and it will be difficult.
Althoug, An interesting 10 pool transition I saw a while back was a game from rootSlush against liquid Ret where he blocked his ramp with 2 queens and had a 1 base ling/infestor allin. But that was against a 15 hatch I believe but it might work against speedling openings. Edit: this occurred a super long time ago so I don't think it would work these days. Just thought the idea was interesting.
On June 04 2013 10:51 Smartwater wrote: I realized in my game play, my scouting is very weak. And I made it to high diamond with mechanics alone and barely any game knowledge. What tips would you give for scouting in all Zerg matchups. And when do you sarcrifive overlords, and how else do you use overlords in your scouting!
Between 6 and 630 for protoss. Terran you can scout the front and get a good read on what they are doing or you can send a lord in at about the same time. ZVZ usually you run a pair of lings in like 530 if you want to see what's happening. Usually zergs just scout the front though. Poke with a pair of lings. later you want to use overseers to get full scouting off and speed helps too.
For a High Masters Zerg having a ton of issues dealing with the standard Bio/Mine/Medivac 2/2 timing at around 13:30, even when I am well aware that it is coming, what are the tips of engaging this army, and which composition plays out the best against this?
- I've attempted everything from Roach/Hydra to Ling/Infestor to Ling/Bling/Muta and while some of my plays have been decent holds, none have allowed me to capitalise enough to stop the fourth base going down, let alone have some free units to do a runby while he's moving out. Is it just my control against the mines, or are there a few tricks to engage this army that I am not seeing?
Does anyone have a rough build order of the speed roach/speed bane timing with +1/+1 from game 4 between Soulkey and Innovation (Code S finals)? Here's the game (which I can't watch) http://www.gomtv.net/2013wcs1/vod/80094/?set=4
On June 05 2013 21:32 Gyoza wrote: Does anyone have a rough build order of the speed roach/speed bane timing with +1/+1 from game 4 between Soulkey and Innovation (Code S finals)? Here's the game (which I can't watch) http://www.gomtv.net/2013wcs1/vod/80094/?set=4
It's not HD but you should be able to get the build off this.
On June 05 2013 12:30 Jinxeth wrote: For a High Masters Zerg having a ton of issues dealing with the standard Bio/Mine/Medivac 2/2 timing at around 13:30, even when I am well aware that it is coming, what are the tips of engaging this army, and which composition plays out the best against this?
- I've attempted everything from Roach/Hydra to Ling/Infestor to Ling/Bling/Muta and while some of my plays have been decent holds, none have allowed me to capitalise enough to stop the fourth base going down, let alone have some free units to do a runby while he's moving out. Is it just my control against the mines, or are there a few tricks to engage this army that I am not seeing?
I've gotten pretty good at stopping this since my build is centered around getting ultralisks out. Basically what I focus on is getting 4 to 6 infestors out. The infestors alone won't do it but they make it possible for you to defend behind some spine crawlers. What happens is the terran reachs your forward positioned spines and scans. He sees your infestors and ling/bane and burrows his mines and splits up his marines. Then he tries to run forward with a small group to draw you out. This is very ineffective. You can have a sizable force of zerglings to put pressure on him when he leaves his base this way. Your creep spread and overlord scouting is very important since you may have to re-position your spines depending on where he decides to attack.
Best case scenario the terran doesn't scan when he steps onto your creep and you fungal his entire army. That happens more often than you'd think. Worse case he sets up very defensively and camps there until you do a runby or are ready to clear him out of there. Basically the spines/infestors should allow you to do enough counter pressure with your zerglings to put the terran in an awkward situtation.
On June 05 2013 21:32 Gyoza wrote: Does anyone have a rough build order of the speed roach/speed bane timing with +1/+1 from game 4 between Soulkey and Innovation (Code S finals)? Here's the game (which I can't watch) http://www.gomtv.net/2013wcs1/vod/80094/?set=4
It's not HD but you should be able to get the build off this.
Hi guys!!!Plat zerg here and i have some problem with scoutinng toss! i canot understand when toss is trying an all or marco game? i mean i usually scout around 6 : 30 -7 with ov but sometimes i see robo or canot see the robo and i get caught unguarded and lose to all . Most of the times i lost to an all in 7-8 gateway stalkers zealot with proxy pulon arounnd 8-9, is there something that can tell me that toss is doing an all in ?IF u can tell me specific i would apricient it ! thank you! sorry for my english!
On June 05 2013 12:30 Jinxeth wrote: For a High Masters Zerg having a ton of issues dealing with the standard Bio/Mine/Medivac 2/2 timing at around 13:30, even when I am well aware that it is coming, what are the tips of engaging this army, and which composition plays out the best against this?
- I've attempted everything from Roach/Hydra to Ling/Infestor to Ling/Bling/Muta and while some of my plays have been decent holds, none have allowed me to capitalise enough to stop the fourth base going down, let alone have some free units to do a runby while he's moving out. Is it just my control against the mines, or are there a few tricks to engage this army that I am not seeing?
There really are no tricks, just good macro as well as decent army control. If you keep on losing to the same timing at 13:30 try different levels of counterattacking, maybe even trying full base trades. This isn't exactly a secret, just a tactic to try as you try to tune up your micro/macro.
Why is there no OP in the thread? The Protoss help me thread has been very helpful and I always thought I could try out Zerg someday because I see this thread being bumped up. I finally click on it and no OP, LOL.
Zerg dudes, what gives? It says "...come up with new OP", is there an old one?
On June 05 2013 12:30 Jinxeth wrote: For a High Masters Zerg having a ton of issues dealing with the standard Bio/Mine/Medivac 2/2 timing at around 13:30, even when I am well aware that it is coming, what are the tips of engaging this army, and which composition plays out the best against this?
- I've attempted everything from Roach/Hydra to Ling/Infestor to Ling/Bling/Muta and while some of my plays have been decent holds, none have allowed me to capitalise enough to stop the fourth base going down, let alone have some free units to do a runby while he's moving out. Is it just my control against the mines, or are there a few tricks to engage this army that I am not seeing?
There really are no tricks, just good macro as well as decent army control. If you keep on losing to the same timing at 13:30 try different levels of counterattacking, maybe even trying full base trades. This isn't exactly a secret, just a tactic to try as you try to tune up your micro/macro.
Yup, and flanking with roach/ling/muta from 2/3 sides has been working pretty good for me (diamond)
1. What's the point of getting infestors vs terran? Medivacs heal through the dps, so it doesn't seem effective if they have enough medivacs. Lings and fungal alone still can't kill stimmed marine/marauder so you still need banelings in the end.
Can someone who regularly gets infestors ZvT tell me why you get them and why they are good? For now I'm still using ling/bling/muta.
2. What's the ideal number of mutas to have in ZvT for defense/cleanup? Pros always seem to get 10-12 mutas, but I'd think that 20 is a better number(if focus fire, 20 one-shots a medivac), since you kill medivacs much faster and cleanup after banelings/lings better.
EPT
