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On February 13 2014 08:51 Enigmasc wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2014 08:11 Moosegills wrote:On February 13 2014 08:00 Enigmasc wrote:
hey guys
im a diamond level zerg( only just got to diamond) and im really struggling with zvp atm
im usually find early and midgame against toss ( usually succesful at holding 2 base timings etc etc)
but iv reallly been struggling lategame pvz
it seems like they get to a stage with a voidray/collosus/ht deathball and they just roll over me no matter what i do
and it kinda happens pretty often since im a pretty passive player ( trying to break the habbit)
i used to win all my zvps by just roach hydra viper timings but protoss in diamond seem to realise feedback is a thing so im really struggling
is the only compositiion that works lategame an army with a SH backbone?
iv been hesitant to use them up untill now because i feel they make for boring games, but it feels like its the only thing that would work ( sorta like there neccesary vs mech)
should i work on third breaker builds to set myself up with an advantage or just give in and try and learn how to play the soulkey sorta style with Sh + corruptor into broods Its hard to say anything for sure w/o seeing a replay but if you previously liked doing roach hydra viper timings here is something you can do. If the protoss opens typical phoenix into third, you can get a hive as early as 9:30. Try to hit a roach hydra viper timing maxed with 1-1 with 3-4 vipers at 14 minutes. If they have colossus and high templar at this point they probably don't have much for a gateway army so you can bait colossus forward with a binding cloud (since its longer range than feedback) and then try pulling them. Viper timings still work fine vs standard phoenix into ground play - just try working on your timings and macro thanks for the help and the quick responce ! ima look up a few SH builds the way soulkey plays it out(im sure ill have some replays of his somewhere  ) and try and work from there, since id rather fix my lategame problems rather than just avoid the lategame with Timings since my ZvZ has already decended into spiralling allins/cheesyness :S
If you want to play swarmhosts and lategame styles I would actually recommend watching Snute's games instead of any of the koreans playing SH styles.
http://www.twitch.tv/liquidsnute/profile/pastBroadcasts
Korean styles tend to involve more corruptors less static and more losing from what I've witnessed haha. Also seems like some of the protosses have been playing really bad vs swarmhosts (never getting mothership and tempest+revelation) so its hard to see if some of the SH-->brood styles would work if the protoss played a bit more comprehensive.
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Watch Snute if you want to see winning with SH (and also incredibly boring games lol).
Can anyone help holding early 3rd vs. Hellion Banshee? What's a proper response? I don't want to get conned into making too many Roaches because they're deadweight otherwise.
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I've had some trouble with Zealot/Archon all ins in ZvP. I Take a third, get some queens, zergling speed, and lair/spire. Then as I get about 5-6 muta built I get hit with a Archon/Zealot attack. I take out all the probes with my muta, but that doesn't really help when the Archons and Zealots kill my spines, zerglings and some emergency roaches I produced, before killing everything else. They had +2shield I think, which meant my zerglings were rather useless at dealing damage.
What works against Archon/Zealot? Should I have gone for mass roaches? Or maybe instead of a spire go for early infestation pit and get swarm hots or infestors?
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On February 14 2014 01:08 kandiru wrote:
I've had some trouble with Zealot/Archon all ins in ZvP. I Take a third, get some queens, zergling speed, and lair/spire. Then as I get about 5-6 muta built I get hit with a Archon/Zealot attack. I take out all the probes with my muta, but that doesn't really help when the Archons and Zealots kill my spines, zerglings and some emergency roaches I produced, before killing everything else. They had +2shield I think, which meant my zerglings were rather useless at dealing damage.
What works against Archon/Zealot? Should I have gone for mass roaches? Or maybe instead of a spire go for early infestation pit and get swarm hots or infestors?
(Protoss player here, so I face this a lot)
I don't think Muta are good 5-6 at a time because of this precise reason. Sure you can kill all their workers, but you will just die to the pushes. IMO the best time to go Muta is after you've just traded a big army out for their army and you can get out like 15-20 muta at once.
I'd say get a lot of roaches or Roach hydra. Either that or Swarm hosts (really good agaisnt Zealot archon). Keep saving up until you have enough money to get critical mass of Muta all at once. Once you've traded armies, remax and win.
I know it's not that easy to execute, but that's the concept. Day9 did a great daily on Jaedong's muta switches ZvP and why you shouldn't make small numbers of muta (for precisely the reason you lost).
Hope that helps.
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That's very helpful, thanks. I was hoping to do some economic damage with my muta, since I hadn't seen a huge push coming. But it turns out he was massing HT and warping to archons at a random pylon halfway across the map I hadn't scouted. In retrospect if I don't see Stargate/Robotics I should assume its going to be either a blink stalker all in, or an archon/zealot all in. Either way, I need to mass roaches, maybe with some swarm hosts thrown in!
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United States248 Posts
On February 14 2014 01:04 DinoMight wrote:
Can anyone help holding early 3rd vs. Hellion Banshee? What's a proper response? I don't want to get conned into making too many Roaches because they're deadweight otherwise.
Helion Banshee response should not be roaches if you want to be playing standard ling bling muta; your build should look something like this:
Opener to 5hatch ling bling muta:
Hatch
Gas
Pool
@100 gas pull drones off
2q right away
Start a 3rd Q at natural.
@5:30 send an ol to his main to check for tech vs 3rd CC.
@6:15 (as soon as your inject pops) send a drone to 3rd and spend larva > make 3rd.
Make a 4th Q as soon as you can.
@7:15-20 start 2x more gas geysers, put guys back in main gas. Start evos.
Once your 3rd finishes add in 2x more queen (this will be 6 total).
Everything after this starts varying a lot so I won't include it.
This is a very rough outline of a build and if you like I can get more specific. Basically, you use 2-3 queens to secure your 3rd with ling queen, and once the 3rd is finished you'll add more queens to help in defense and spreading creep. This isn't easy, but it is the optimal way to play. You do not need spores at 3rd to hold hellion banshee unless you lose a lot of queens or he is going for cloak.
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On February 14 2014 03:20 Jowj wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2014 01:04 DinoMight wrote:
Can anyone help holding early 3rd vs. Hellion Banshee? What's a proper response? I don't want to get conned into making too many Roaches because they're deadweight otherwise. Helion Banshee response should not be roaches if you want to be playing standard ling bling muta; your build should look something like this: Opener to 5hatch ling bling muta: Hatch Gas Pool @100 gas pull drones off 2q right away Start a 3rd Q at natural. @5:30 send an ol to his main to check for tech vs 3rd CC. @6:15 (as soon as your inject pops) send a drone to 3rd and spend larva > make 3rd. Make a 4th Q as soon as you can. @7:15-20 start 2x more gas geysers, put guys back in main gas. Start evos. Once your 3rd finishes add in 2x more queen (this will be 6 total). Everything after this starts varying a lot so I won't include it. This is a very rough outline of a build and if you like I can get more specific. Basically, you use 2-3 queens to secure your 3rd with ling queen, and once the 3rd is finished you'll add more queens to help in defense and spreading creep. This isn't easy, but it is the optimal way to play. You do not need spores at 3rd to hold hellion banshee unless you lose a lot of queens or he is going for cloak.
<3 thanks.
Just started playing some Z from Protoss and I have no idea what I'm doing ZvT lol.
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Hello everybody .
To counter the hellion / reaper harass on my third , what is preferable ? Roach ? Only lings or queens ?
If roach , at which timing am I supposed to start my roach warren ? something like 5:45 i guess ?
Thanks 
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On February 14 2014 08:35 Irradium wrote:Hello everybody . To counter the hellion / reaper harass on my third , what is preferable ? Roach ? Only lings or queens ? If roach , at which timing am I supposed to start my roach warren ? something like 5:45 i guess ? Thanks
If you want to go into standard play (muta ling bling) you'll want to have 3 queens designated to spreading creep and defending your third. Anything less you could end up getting lots lings and your creep spreading queens BBQ'ed
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On February 14 2014 09:06 Moosegills wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2014 08:35 Irradium wrote:Hello everybody . To counter the hellion / reaper harass on my third , what is preferable ? Roach ? Only lings or queens ? If roach , at which timing am I supposed to start my roach warren ? something like 5:45 i guess ? Thanks If you want to go into standard play (muta ling bling) you'll want to have 3 queens designated to spreading creep and defending your third. Anything less you could end up getting lots lings and your creep spreading queens BBQ'ed
You make 5 queens vs this or just use your natural inject one to help out?
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are the builds in OP still up to date? i havent played in a while, and OP looks the same as 6 months ago
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United States248 Posts
On February 14 2014 12:04 courtpanda wrote:
are the builds in OP still up to date? i havent played in a while, and OP looks the same as 6 months ago
They aren't super up to date, but they work. I'd argue that ZvZ roach openings are pretty uncommon at the moment on ladder based on my experience and the bitching of every other zerg =3.
ZvT is accurate mostly, the general idea is there. The vast majority of pro players have opted to not go for Roach Warren, as its easier to defend, but can put you behind.
ZvP is still accurate vs FFE, but I don't see a gateway expo write up. FFE vs Gateway are equally common, honestly. Here's a quick and dirty write up:
VS Gateway Expo
15h
16g
16p
2xQ
@100 gas pull drones off gas, get speed
As queens finish up (around 5 minutes) send drone to take 3rd.
Big scout timings:
<5 minutes have lings at his natural looking for probes leaving, chronoboost used, and number of gateways
~5:15 get Ol ready to sac into main and see what he's up to
Everything after that is dependent on what happens before.
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If I'm not too busy later I'll try to post some general macro builds for you guys with some replays maybe.
- I'll just edit into this post later
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Ok thank you !
What about avoid muta in ZvZ ? it's really something I insta "gg" because i dont want to play against it coz I dont sucessfully transi to hydra / infestor .
I try some ling / blings allin but now in diamond they can deny that pretty ez in the most of case
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How do I deal with Widow Mines in an engangement?
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On February 15 2014 03:30 ShadoWYP wrote:
How do I deal with Widow Mines in an engangement?
If the terran dont look at his WM , u can disarm 'em by send a gling , otherwise , try to flank the terran army to at least made the mine TK him a lot .
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On February 15 2014 03:11 Irradium wrote:Ok thank you ! What about avoid muta in ZvZ ? it's really something I insta "gg" because i dont want to play against it coz I dont sucessfully transi to hydra / infestor . I try some ling / blings allin but now in diamond they can deny that pretty ez in the most of case
try 4-6 queens in your army, queens are very good for defending vs early muta because they can tank damage and transfuse. on certain maps like yeonsu i also make sure to spread creep between my main and natural (and of course just a lot of creep in general) so my queens are more mobile defensively. taking your third will be the hardest thing - try using your roaches or lings to pressure his third base and draw the mutalisks back toward his side of the map. muta play is very weak without 6 gas so if you can deny him mining gas at the third base you'll force him to play more defensively. it's ok if you lose army attacking because mutas aren't strong in a direct engagement and he won't have gas for his ground army - you're trying to buy time for tech, not kill him
by the time your opponent has enough muta to take out mass queens you should have your hydras or infestors out and he'll probably transition out of muta anyway, at which point you should be getting the roach/hydra or roach/infestor army up and taking an upgrade lead (this is big because his muta investment means his ground upgrades will end up behind yours). you can also try using overlords to poop creep at your third and make spore crawlers there before the hatch finishes. if you like to use burrowed roach play, 4-6 burrowed roaches into your opponent's main and natural can be quite good too because it draws him back and ling/muta don't have enough DPS to kill roaches before you kill some of his workers
finally, this is fairly obvious, but making sure you scout the spire early (or at least identify his playstyle because of warning signs like an early third base, few or no roaches, no ling upgrades, not many banelings, etc.) always helps you plan your defense in advance. good players can mindgame you by making a round of roaches into muta or building double evo and not using them, so if you can manage to scout the spire (usually by turning your forward overlord into an overseer, which you can also go on to use for contaminate) that's always ideal
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On February 15 2014 03:30 ShadoWYP wrote:
How do I deal with Widow Mines in an engangement?
there are two methods i like to use. one is where you just run over the entire terran army with all your lings, trying to disarm them all at once so they won't hit your banes, while at the same time doing splash damage to his marines. with this method, i usually box the lings in the front and move command them behind the terran army, because hopefully these are the lings the WMs will be targeting, then the rest of your lings start attacking the army. the other method is sending your army, then just pulling back everything except a small group in order to set off mines so you can engage later or force terran to retreat (you can't just send one or two because the bio will just kill it before the WMs trigger). like the other poster said, spreading and coming from different angles helps as well, but this isn't always possible to do
honestly how you deal with WM depends heavily on the situation and how terran uses them. i find flooding all your lings at once is usually better if terran is pre-spread and not trying to kite or retreat right away. remember that spreading marines is good against your banelings but also lets your zerglings get easier surrounds. if he's just trying to bait you into a mine field while running all his bio away, then doing the charge-then-pullback or just sending small packs of lings can work. but it's less about the method and more about your mechanics vs. his. just do your best to split and spread while attacking. personally i hotkey all banelings to 2 so i can pull them away as fast as possible if it looks like some big WM hits are about to go off. WM micro is just something you learn from experience with lots of specific situations, theory isn't the most important thing. analyze your engagements against better players who are in equal or higher league than you, because as zerg it's easy to fight a bad terran and think you're engaging well just because his macro isn't as strong as yours and you'll just overwhelm them. better players force you to engage better
finally, strong multitasking and micro on your muta ball helps deal with WM for less direct engagements. if you're fast with your mutas and terran's marines are barely out of position, you can snipe widow mines with very minimal muta losses, and over time you'll learn cute tricks like engaging 2-3 widow mines by tanking with your overseers so you can snipe the mines without losing mutas. this is very useful when terran is camping in a choke point with a lot of bio mine, because choke points also mean dead air space where your mutas can't be chased by marines. look for safe angles to take out mines. you don't have to necessarily trade better at this because when the widow mines start disappearing your ling/bling should be able to beat his marines or marine/marauder after you've hurt his widow mine support. widow mines are very cheap, but they still take production time and movement time to reinforce the army, so every WM you kill weakens terran's map presence. again, it's heavily mechanic-based. you have to be brave with your mutas so you'll learn how far you're able to go without being caught by marines
other things that don't have anything to do with anti-WM micro but are important:
-make sure you're on equal upgrades (until 3-3 of course)
-remember to build overseers for both your ling/bling and your muta, and work on pulling them back so you don't lose them to marines, including researching overlord speed
-spread creep, and when terran destroys your creep, remake the creep (i hotkey creep queens to 5 and burrow them when they're not active so they're less likely to get caught out). don't fight off of creep! terran will ALWAYS try to bait you off creep. unless you have a heavy army advantage or catch terran out of position, fighting off creep won't be efficient
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It's possible to keep minerals very low if you are on 2 base (full satured) and you only build lings? I had ~900 minerals at 8min, both queens had 0 energy (used only for injects). I have no clue how i could have improve this.
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You only need 10 drones per hatch+queen if you are going to make lings and overlords only, so with 32 drones you would need a 3rd hatchery.
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EPT
