|
On September 09 2013 21:36 morgoth813 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2013 21:19 Mahtasooma wrote:
What I'm not getting is the defense vs a sentry-heavy early game third hatch snipe off of a gateway expand.
Like we are the defensive race, which is fine, so I scout him move out, make units, which arrive at my third when he's arriving at the third as well, he walls himself in with forcefields, just snipes the hatch and recalls back.
So... I 100% fail to see how to defend this (get more units more early is instant economic fail, obviously).
When it's impossible to defend, I tend to attack. maybe if you post a replay there will be more precise feedback.
It's not just me, I've seen this tons and tons of times in recent progames, Squirtle vs Curious [IEM] KR/TW Qualifier just now. Recall makes it so that the protoss can really just FF everything off, kill a hatch and recall back. There's literally no economic answer to this I can see AND no risk of the protoss, because you'd have to build stuff so early OR totally overcommit to spines which is just as bad.
Protoss can just move out with anything really without risk at any point in time when he feels like he has enough stuff to snipe a hatch (can even be some blink stalkers). And even if he fails, he can recall back, losing some energy on the mothership core whereas Z had to stop droning and produce tons of units. It's basically a zero risk win-win situation.
|
On September 09 2013 21:41 Mahtasooma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2013 21:36 morgoth813 wrote:On September 09 2013 21:19 Mahtasooma wrote:
What I'm not getting is the defense vs a sentry-heavy early game third hatch snipe off of a gateway expand.
Like we are the defensive race, which is fine, so I scout him move out, make units, which arrive at my third when he's arriving at the third as well, he walls himself in with forcefields, just snipes the hatch and recalls back.
So... I 100% fail to see how to defend this (get more units more early is instant economic fail, obviously).
When it's impossible to defend, I tend to attack. maybe if you post a replay there will be more precise feedback. It's not just me, I've seen this tons and tons of times in recent progames, Squirtle vs Curious [IEM] KR/TW Qualifier just now. Recall makes it so that the protoss can really just FF everything off, kill a hatch and recall back. There's literally no economic answer to this I can see AND no risk of the protoss, because you'd have to build stuff so early OR totally overcommit to spines which is just as bad. Protoss can just move out with anything really without risk at any point in time when he feels like he has enough stuff to snipe a hatch (can even be some blink stalkers). And even if he fails, he can recall back, losing some energy on the mothership core whereas Z had to stop droning and produce tons of units. It's basically a zero risk win-win situation.
sure, there is no counter, abandon all hope.
Link that qualifier if you can, and your replay. I'm pretty sure you don't play like a KR pro and there are details in your replay that would help you improve, should you notice them.
In any case, if you build speedlings for the same economical cost as his army (including gas), rally them to the front of his base, and surround-kill him as he moves out, I don't see how he's ever going to snipe your third, OR be ahead.
There may be practical issues and details to iron out, but it's a loss on paper, and thus unlikely to be OP in reality.
|
Hey highmaster zerg eu here. I have problem with going roach hydra infestor vs muta players. I usually establish third and im in nice position and if he techs or switches to swarmhosts or ultras or roach infestor i often manage to win the game. On the other hand i have a problem against pure muta ling speedbane style where he doesnt risk too much with his mutas and just waits on 4 bases while slowteching to hive. I feel sorta forced to move out and then i get surrounded by millions speedbanes. Despite mass fungals and my own baneling support banes almost always manage to connect (if he spreads them well) and then 25+ mutas clear the rest. I asked nerchio about this and he said that roach hydra infestor is plain bad and not viable vs well executed muta ling bane spine. Any thoughts on this?
|
On September 09 2013 22:53 Matiz_pl wrote:
Hey highmaster zerg eu here. I have problem with going roach hydra infestor vs muta players. I usually establish third and im in nice position and if he techs or switches to swarmhosts or ultras or roach infestor i often manage to win the game. On the other hand i have a problem against pure muta ling speedbane style where he doesnt risk too much with his mutas and just waits on 4 bases while slowteching to hive. I feel sorta forced to move out and then i get surrounded by millions speedbanes. Despite mass fungals and my own baneling support banes almost always manage to connect (if he spreads them well) and then 25+ mutas clear the rest. I asked nerchio about this and he said that roach hydra infestor is plain bad and not viable vs well executed muta ling bane spine. Any thoughts on this?
(I talk in past tense because I got bored of starcraft 2)
I myself had difficulties vs mass speedling and ling/bane. What I used to do is I took a third, MASS spore/roach while double upping. I eventualy use my banked gas to pump out around 8 infestors, get hydras and move out with 2-2/maxed. ENGAGE IN CHOKES. Have your roaches surround your hydras/make a wall from all possible engagement angles. On belshir vestige, per say, exit through your natural and cut straight to your potential fifth (some terran's third). Exit through there through their 4th and cut into their third, behind the mineral field whenever possible.
Chokes and Roach walls. Some of your own banelings can help.
|
^ That's what i do but usually still its 20 hydras so if just 2-3 banes slip through and if oppontent is good he will most likely manage to do it, if he has a lot of mutas and he should have around 20-25 its still hard as fuck
|
I theory crafted: why not just mass roach bane and just rush his bases while having 2-3 spines per base with 5 bands per base and a million spores? He can't base race and you should get at least 1 base as he shouldn't have that much dps on his mutas. And if he does, then don't do this genre of push. Double ups, transitioning into roach hydra infestor AFTER you kill his economy to finish him. Even rally remaxed roaches to his other base. Think about it. Low cost. Burrow could help too.
|
Hey all. Great thread with a SICK OP.
I was wondering what the best way to hit marines when your opponent is mixing in a lot of marauders. It seems my banes always just hit the closest target (the marauders).
|
On September 10 2013 06:40 TRaFFiC wrote:
Hey all. Great thread with a SICK OP.
I was wondering what the best way to hit marines when your opponent is mixing in a lot of marauders. It seems my banes always just hit the closest target (the marauders).
Easy question, important question.
Move command your banelings ONLY and a-move once they're past the marauders. Even move command after a big burst further to a-move further into the marine ball.
Also try engaging from multiple from multiple angles. If you come in from all angles possible, you will see their army get rofl stomped. Its disgusting yet amazing how amazing it is. It may not seem to make that much of a difference, but its like mmphmmmmm that went well. try it.
|
On September 08 2013 15:07 11B wrote:My favorite is Quantic Massan. Very intellectual, well spoken, considerate, and I like his playstyle: http://www.twitch.tv/massansc
Thanks, love his stream, and tons of uploaded videos. He sometimes chats with opponents which is pretty informative.
I'm going to learn his queen inject method - it takes like .1 seconds to inject everything. Looks like hotkey all queens, use backspace method.
|
Are baneling landmines worth it in ladder play?
I know this maybe just the frustration speaking out of me, but I've been playing baneling landmines for months now in my TvZs and I feel like a lot of my macro losses come from me having 10-20banelings around the map and my opponent either just scans them or never walks over them, at least not when I'm looking.
It's getting frustrating, because anytime I don't have them I feel like I just have so many more blings that I can just wins battles, while with them I'm really reliant on getting a hit off and you sometimes just don't and it's sinply not in your hands.
Not to mention that it is ladder... Some people there actually just have a weird build that includes a Raven...
|
On September 10 2013 17:08 Big J wrote:
Are baneling landmines worth it in ladder play?
I know this maybe just the frustration speaking out of me, but I've been playing baneling landmines for months now in my TvZs and I feel like a lot of my macro losses come from me having 10-20banelings around the map and my opponent either just scans them or never walks over them, at least not when I'm looking.
It's getting frustrating, because anytime I don't have them I feel like I just have so many more blings that I can just wins battles, while with them I'm really reliant on getting a hit off and you sometimes just don't and it's sinply not in your hands.
Not to mention that it is ladder... Some people there actually just have a weird build that includes a Raven...
The effectiveness of mines depends on your target's necessity to cross the area.
In other words, let's say your opponent has a nat and a third, you plant bane mines between the nat and the third, and send your speedlings in to the third.
Because he HAS to cross, he will go very fast without checking, AND you will be prepared because you were the one who set up the trap.
You can't really expect a terran to move out of position, you'll have to force it.
You can also attack third with mutas, let him backup, fly away while you plant banes in the nat->third highway, then catch him on his way back.
The core thing is you will never lose a game just because you have 10-20 banelings there, and mines well used are worth a lot more than they cost.
Unless you're GM (and sometimes even there), there's always a bigger mistake to focus on than mis-spending 250/500 in the mid game.
|
The core thing is you will never lose a game just because you have 10-20 banelings there, and mines well used are worth a lot more than they cost.
Well, that's the point I disagree with. If you get a good baneling mine (2-3blings) off its usually like 10marines killed. If you roll into your opponent with 5more banelings you easily get 10more marines. But for the first scenario you need like 10-20 baneling landmines on the map.
And I mean, I'm placing landmines on main paths where his army walks, and he just scans. Or he randomly walks a different path. Or he doesn't walk straight, so my banelings would at best brush him. Hell, I get the feeling if you just show a ladder player burrowed banelings once and then completely abbandon them it would be best, because they just start scanning everywhere anyways, whether you actually use landmines or not.
|
On September 10 2013 17:55 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +The core thing is you will never lose a game just because you have 10-20 banelings there, and mines well used are worth a lot more than they cost. Well, that's the point I disagree with. If you get a good baneling mine (2-3blings) off its usually like 10marines killed. If you roll into your opponent with 5more banelings you easily get 10more marines. But for the first scenario you need like 10-20 baneling landmines on the map. And I mean, I'm placing landmines on main paths where his army walks, and he just scans. Or he randomly walks a different path. Or he doesn't walk straight, so my banelings would at best brush him. Hell, I get the feeling if you just show a ladder player burrowed banelings once and then completely abbandon them it would be best, because they just start scanning everywhere anyways, whether you actually use landmines or not.
What I mean is that 250/500 is easily offset by a slightly better macro / scouting / engagement.
|
On September 10 2013 18:11 morgoth813 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2013 17:55 Big J wrote:The core thing is you will never lose a game just because you have 10-20 banelings there, and mines well used are worth a lot more than they cost. Well, that's the point I disagree with. If you get a good baneling mine (2-3blings) off its usually like 10marines killed. If you roll into your opponent with 5more banelings you easily get 10more marines. But for the first scenario you need like 10-20 baneling landmines on the map. And I mean, I'm placing landmines on main paths where his army walks, and he just scans. Or he randomly walks a different path. Or he doesn't walk straight, so my banelings would at best brush him. Hell, I get the feeling if you just show a ladder player burrowed banelings once and then completely abbandon them it would be best, because they just start scanning everywhere anyways, whether you actually use landmines or not. What I mean is that 250/500 is easily offset by a slightly better macro / scouting / engagement.
Anything is offset by better macro. There is no (pro)player that couldn't improve his macro to the point that half of his moves become redundant in the light of better macro. Point is, noone magically has better macro just because it would be better to have better macro.
|
On September 10 2013 18:33 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2013 18:11 morgoth813 wrote:On September 10 2013 17:55 Big J wrote:The core thing is you will never lose a game just because you have 10-20 banelings there, and mines well used are worth a lot more than they cost. Well, that's the point I disagree with. If you get a good baneling mine (2-3blings) off its usually like 10marines killed. If you roll into your opponent with 5more banelings you easily get 10more marines. But for the first scenario you need like 10-20 baneling landmines on the map. And I mean, I'm placing landmines on main paths where his army walks, and he just scans. Or he randomly walks a different path. Or he doesn't walk straight, so my banelings would at best brush him. Hell, I get the feeling if you just show a ladder player burrowed banelings once and then completely abbandon them it would be best, because they just start scanning everywhere anyways, whether you actually use landmines or not. What I mean is that 250/500 is easily offset by a slightly better macro / scouting / engagement. Anything is offset by better macro. There is no (pro)player that couldn't improve his macro to the point that half of his moves become redundant in the light of better macro. Point is, noone magically has better macro just because it would be better to have better macro.
Wrong. macro is just the most mechanical skill so everyone can learn it.
At every level in starcraft2, all the other skills are relevant as well.
Point is, you probably lose because you play worse than your opponent, not because you make baneling mines.
If your question is "do my 10-20 unused baneling mines make me lose?", the answer is "no".
|
Hey highmaster zerg eu here. I have problem with going roach hydra infestor vs muta players.
A nice alternative is to start an earlier than normal +1 Missle (you can forgoe 2 evo's at first) and push out quite a bit sooner with Nydus -> Roaches -> and 5-6 Queens. The +1 should finish sooner than any +1 Cara lings while the Nydus allows you to support your Roaches with Queens. Basically, you need the Nydus cause Queens move to damn slow off creep, plus this really puts quite a bit of pressure on any 3rd, and or original natural choke.
The timing works out so that you're attacking with 24-30 +1 Roach, 5-6 Queens, 1 Nydus around the time they'll have 36-48 Lings (w/ potential to turn some of those into Blings) and 9-12 Muta just morphing or just finished morphing and a 3rd base that would have finished around 15s to 1m before you attack.
I like to wall off my natural w/ evos/sunk as I move out. If they counter attack your 3rd they won't have enough forces to defend their 3rd OR their natural. TBH, the only way they can actually hold from my experience is by mass spining they're natural. They'll almost certainly lose their 3rd which in the worst case scenario you're up 3 bases to 2.
Now on maps like Derelicht things can be tricky simply because they can mass spines at 1 choke......but on maps w/out one choke or in games where they don't throw down excessive spines you should be ahead. I follow the initial 1 evo build up with a faster IP and quicker Infestors.......so basically you can attack with +2 Missle/Infestor support for follow up pushes.
Are baneling landmines worth it in ladder play?
I see Massan and Blade use them all the time so my answer is Yes.
|
On September 10 2013 18:47 morgoth813 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2013 18:33 Big J wrote:On September 10 2013 18:11 morgoth813 wrote:On September 10 2013 17:55 Big J wrote:The core thing is you will never lose a game just because you have 10-20 banelings there, and mines well used are worth a lot more than they cost. Well, that's the point I disagree with. If you get a good baneling mine (2-3blings) off its usually like 10marines killed. If you roll into your opponent with 5more banelings you easily get 10more marines. But for the first scenario you need like 10-20 baneling landmines on the map. And I mean, I'm placing landmines on main paths where his army walks, and he just scans. Or he randomly walks a different path. Or he doesn't walk straight, so my banelings would at best brush him. Hell, I get the feeling if you just show a ladder player burrowed banelings once and then completely abbandon them it would be best, because they just start scanning everywhere anyways, whether you actually use landmines or not. What I mean is that 250/500 is easily offset by a slightly better macro / scouting / engagement. Anything is offset by better macro. There is no (pro)player that couldn't improve his macro to the point that half of his moves become redundant in the light of better macro. Point is, noone magically has better macro just because it would be better to have better macro. Wrong. macro is just the most mechanical skill so everyone can learn it. At every level in starcraft2, all the other skills are relevant as well. Point is, you probably lose because you play worse than your opponent, not because you make baneling mines. If your question is "do my 10-20 unused baneling mines make me lose?", the answer is "no".
Please, just don't respond to me if your point is that "you lose because you play worse than your opponent". No shit, that's how playing worse is defined... by losing.
I'm asking whether excessive baneling landmines play is worth it on the ladder, and your answer is that "I should play better and then it won't matter when it doesn't pay off." Well, my question is whether it actually pays off on average. Because right now I don't feel like it does.
|
Does anyone know of a style based on Queen/ling/bane/infestor ?
Thanks.
|
i see so few burrowed banelings used. If we do this more, terran will be forced to use scans more. it seems like this is a largely unexplored solution.
|
On September 10 2013 21:27 waffling1 wrote:
i see so few burrowed banelings used. If we do this more, terran will be forced to use scans more. it seems like this is a largely unexplored solution.
Theyre worth it. Players dont do it and they should do it vs terran Bio.
On September 10 2013 20:43 morgoth813 wrote:
Does anyone know of a style based on Queen/ling/bane/infestor ?
Thanks.
You can do some scarlett style ZvP which aims for powerful double up lings. Composition is ling/queen/infestor/ultra, but banes arent used. Vs zerg there would be a lot of problems because queens are useless in that comp vs zerg until theres ultras.
In general, lings and infestors do have good synergy. And when ultras are there, make queens; they have good synergy with ultras. Banes are good vs terran bio almost always and can help vs mass zealot.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
