On September 05 2013 21:01 DjayEl wrote: Hi, I'd like to know if it is ok to blindly open no gas vs a Terran, because of the reaper. I'm testing a BO from Scarlett which is very economical (she takes double gas at 5:30) and helps me a lot against 3CC -> 4M push, but I feel like drone scouting hurts my economy a lot. Is it possible to just take gas reactively as soon as I see the first reaper, or should I micro with my 4 queens and slow lings and follow the build normally ? (in which case speed may come too late to counter hellion+reaper trying to deny my 3rd ?)
I also see some players doing a 3 hatch before pool opening after scouting a CC first, but I tried the build a lot at slow speed vs AI and it does not seem to get me any better economy than the 2 base (3rd at 6:00) and fast 4 queens Scarlett's BO.
What in your opinion is the best go-to opening vs Terran if I want to go full macro and be extremely greedy, but without outright dying if T opens gas ?
Thank guys!
It's perfectly fine to not get an early gas against reaper openings. If you choose to not drone scout you should make 4 lings when your pool finishes while simultaneously starting your first 2 queens. The lings are there to delay the reapers from messing with your dronies to much until your queen come out. You dont actually have to kill the reapers just keep them away from your dronies. If he for some reason continue to make reapers thats a huge investment on his part and just starting some extra queens should easily win you the game.
I prefer not to drone scout since I feel safe anyway. making those 4 lings is a less investment than the 13 drone scout so the main thing is if you feel insecure against things like 2 rax or proxy reapers. Scarletts build order is very good, stick with that one. it's as standard as it can get. It's the standard 4 queen opening from wol everyone does but it got unpopular for while with people scared of reapers but just getting those 4 lings and microing the queens and you safe vs everything.
As for 3 hatch before pool I really don't know how big the advantage is but I imagine it isn't all that significient but maybe it compensates the cost of a drone scout. Either way i feel it's better to just stick to standard unless you are death scared of proxys.
i'd like Blade, 11B or any other one of the good players in this thread's opinion though.
I'm not good ^^. I'm more talk! 2 years ago I was mid-high masters in WoL (bar code account baby!) but now I haven't even played ladder in HoTs lol. My mechanics and skills are quite diminished ^^. I'd probably have to work 1-2 hours a day just to reach high Diamond!!
That late 3rd from IIB or whatever his name is (Belial is that you ?) was pretty unexpected but he still managed to get 100+ supply @ 9 min.
My name is Sean ^......... and that late 3rd was plopped down at 5:20 (my other variation is 4:40) seconds and at 9 minutes I was actually at 117 supply Imo, good builds let you reach 44 supply nlt 5:50 (6:00 is too late ^) and 75-78 supply nlt 8:00. If you can do those 2 things on a regular basis you should be in excellent shape.
Eh. my vision of you came from the long reading of this very long thread.
But basically my point was that pool first 3 hatch sounds like a very bad idea.
I asked when I shuold go for 3rd Hatch (vs FFE). My problem is that I have always ~400 unspent minerals at ~18 supply ,so then I go build my 3rd Hatch at ~18. I can do nothing at this point because I have no larvas (they are injecting) etc.
i'd like Blade, 11B or any other one of the good players in this thread's opinion though.
I'm not good ^^. I'm more talk! 2 years ago I was mid-high masters in WoL (bar code account baby!) but now I haven't even played ladder in HoTs lol. My mechanics and skills are quite diminished ^^. I'd probably have to work 1-2 hours a day just to reach high Diamond!!
That late 3rd from IIB or whatever his name is (Belial is that you ?) was pretty unexpected but he still managed to get 100+ supply @ 9 min.
My name is Sean ^......... and that late 3rd was plopped down at 5:20 (my other variation is 4:40) seconds and at 9 minutes I was actually at 117 supply Imo, good builds let you reach 44 supply nlt 5:50 (6:00 is too late ^) and 75-78 supply nlt 8:00. If you can do those 2 things on a regular basis you should be in excellent shape.
Eh. my vision of you came from the long reading of this very long thread.
But basically my point was that pool first 3 hatch sounds like a very bad idea.
Okaaaaaaaaaaaay, After reading your posts for the 10th entire time, I think I understand why you were arguing with us. Obviously, he was getting queens while doing this build. I'm not sure where you read that he wanted to make the 3rd hatch before making any queens. He wouldn't get 400 minerals by the time he was @ 21 supply. More like 1000 minerals. Obviously i'm exagerating, but this whole argument sure got on my nerves. I just didn't understand what you were talking about for the last few posts. My bad.
@dingodile : It's perfectly fine to build your third @ 18, in fact there's not much of a big difference between putting your third @ 18 or 30 supply macro-wise. Here's my replay : http://drop.sc/357348?pass=ef8eef3b-d7f2-4627-8221-d4dfe7d7aa4b It's basically a combination of nerchio's and stephano's build. Nerchio's because of the 14 pool and stephano's because of the 1st queen injecting both main and nat and then putting a creep tumor to connect the third. I managed to get only 8 more supply compared to the one of 11B but that's because I made 1 more overlord. I'm pretty sure we can do better but the problem is that the game will never go perfectly against a real opponent.
On September 05 2013 21:01 DjayEl wrote: Hi, I'd like to know if it is ok to blindly open no gas vs a Terran, because of the reaper. I'm testing a BO from Scarlett which is very economical (she takes double gas at 5:30) and helps me a lot against 3CC -> 4M push, but I feel like drone scouting hurts my economy a lot. Is it possible to just take gas reactively as soon as I see the first reaper, or should I micro with my 4 queens and slow lings and follow the build normally ? (in which case speed may come too late to counter hellion+reaper trying to deny my 3rd ?)
I also see some players doing a 3 hatch before pool opening after scouting a CC first, but I tried the build a lot at slow speed vs AI and it does not seem to get me any better economy than the 2 base (3rd at 6:00) and fast 4 queens Scarlett's BO.
What in your opinion is the best go-to opening vs Terran if I want to go full macro and be extremely greedy, but without outright dying if T opens gas ?
Thank guys!
It's perfectly fine to not get an early gas against reaper openings. If you choose to not drone scout you should make 4 lings when your pool finishes while simultaneously starting your first 2 queens. The lings are there to delay the reapers from messing with your dronies to much until your queen come out. You dont actually have to kill the reapers just keep them away from your dronies. If he for some reason continue to make reapers thats a huge investment on his part and just starting some extra queens should easily win you the game.
I prefer not to drone scout since I feel safe anyway. making those 4 lings is a less investment than the 13 drone scout so the main thing is if you feel insecure against things like 2 rax or proxy reapers. Scarletts build order is very good, stick with that one. it's as standard as it can get. It's the standard 4 queen opening from wol everyone does but it got unpopular for while with people scared of reapers but just getting those 4 lings and microing the queens and you safe vs everything.
As for 3 hatch before pool I really don't know how big the advantage is but I imagine it isn't all that significient but maybe it compensates the cost of a drone scout. Either way i feel it's better to just stick to standard unless you are death scared of proxys.
Alright, thanks. So when I see reaper your advice is I basically follow the build and get double gas at 5:30 ? The scary part for me would not be early reapers but more the 2 reaper + 5-6 hellions follow up to pressure my 3rd, but I guess I can just let the hatch finish till speed finishes and I would be fine...
On September 05 2013 21:01 DjayEl wrote: Hi, I'd like to know if it is ok to blindly open no gas vs a Terran, because of the reaper. I'm testing a BO from Scarlett which is very economical (she takes double gas at 5:30) and helps me a lot against 3CC -> 4M push, but I feel like drone scouting hurts my economy a lot. Is it possible to just take gas reactively as soon as I see the first reaper, or should I micro with my 4 queens and slow lings and follow the build normally ? (in which case speed may come too late to counter hellion+reaper trying to deny my 3rd ?)
I also see some players doing a 3 hatch before pool opening after scouting a CC first, but I tried the build a lot at slow speed vs AI and it does not seem to get me any better economy than the 2 base (3rd at 6:00) and fast 4 queens Scarlett's BO.
What in your opinion is the best go-to opening vs Terran if I want to go full macro and be extremely greedy, but without outright dying if T opens gas ?
Thank guys!
It's perfectly fine to not get an early gas against reaper openings. If you choose to not drone scout you should make 4 lings when your pool finishes while simultaneously starting your first 2 queens. The lings are there to delay the reapers from messing with your dronies to much until your queen come out. You dont actually have to kill the reapers just keep them away from your dronies. If he for some reason continue to make reapers thats a huge investment on his part and just starting some extra queens should easily win you the game.
I prefer not to drone scout since I feel safe anyway. making those 4 lings is a less investment than the 13 drone scout so the main thing is if you feel insecure against things like 2 rax or proxy reapers. Scarletts build order is very good, stick with that one. it's as standard as it can get. It's the standard 4 queen opening from wol everyone does but it got unpopular for while with people scared of reapers but just getting those 4 lings and microing the queens and you safe vs everything.
As for 3 hatch before pool I really don't know how big the advantage is but I imagine it isn't all that significient but maybe it compensates the cost of a drone scout. Either way i feel it's better to just stick to standard unless you are death scared of proxys.
Alright, thanks. So when I see reaper your advice is I basically follow the build and get double gas at 5:30 ? The scary part for me would not be early reapers but more the 2 reaper + 5-6 hellions follow up to pressure my 3rd, but I guess I can just let the hatch finish till speed finishes and I would be fine...
Anyway I'll stick with this build now
yepp its fine. queens can defend double reaper no problem. and with the ~10-16 lings you get later you can prevent helions from eating your drones to. The one thing you should check out for is if your opponent doesnt expand. His helions from one base will come one min earlier.. at your base 6:30? i think and there may be followups like banshee that can do dmg. anyway sending a standard scouting overlord at like 6:30 can spot weird things like widow mine or hellbat drops in which case you have to deviate sligthly.. getting spores. or if your lings see 30 marines coming from a 5 rax you may want to try get a few more lings. Your first overlord should always go to his natural and be there on time to spot whats going on. A cc around 3:40-4 min is a 1 rax expo. if its later than that the most common is rax into factory before cc so earlier helis
Edit: as for the helion pressure later. queens + lings do fine. if he runs that into creep his helions will very likely die to your lings+queens so you shouldnt take damage from it. What it will do however is slow down your creeping a bit which is their main job anyway. Some players prefer getting a lot more lings to actually kill the helions even of creep and then get free mapcontrol but it cuts a lot into your econ.
I played lvery similiar 11B replay, the one difference is that I build 2 gas (3rd and 4th) 20sec earlier than him. I'd hit 66 supply at 8min, 114 at 9min and 144 at 10min.
I scream cheater LoL ^^. You only had me by 7 more supply at 9:11 Um.... you had 124 ^^. So I played a real fast game again......yes with another delayed Expo, albeit, my new norm, which is 4:40 (gives you +1 larvae vs 4:00 Hatch my way ^^) and I reached 134 supply at 9:11 so Humph ^^. And that was with mistakes of only 2 drones on a gas too .
Edit: And I was floating quite a bit of minerals for earlier macro hatch (norm is at 9:00-9:30) that I didn't add. And if you actually get all your gas then +1 Missle/Roach speed timing works good. And this lets you max out at 200/200 at 10:50.
How do I go about playing a Roach-Hydra style in ZvT? Are there any extra defensive measures I should take when playing this style, such as getting more static defense etc.
Keep in mind you need to do some initial damage before Medivac count starts kicking in, at which point roach/hydra is horribly bad w/out Infestor support. But here's Soulkeys Z vs T style with Roach/Hydra. And yea, as the game goes on you need lots more static Defense. Adding some Blings to patrol at home can help, as well as more queens to snipe in coming drops.
If you don't like a 5 Time Champion because he is too much of a fucking moron and noob for you then try StarTaleLife's (15 time World Champion) Z vs T style found here:
And if that doesn't work for you try Scarletts standard Z vs T, and a build she used with a lot of success in WCS America season 2:
And finally, 10 Tips to help vs Bio/Mine (when your using Muta/Ling/Bling):
1
Actually the Life vs JJakji is a match where there are almost no widow mines - not really sure that qualifies as biomine, even though there is bio and mine
I think it counts ^^. Gotta take into account Life's macro kicked in before the 11:30 mark....or right before Terran begins powering up. So even if he had a few more mines a 5 hatch flood vs 1 Factory mine does fine. Day[9] actually talked about this same subject in part 3 and came to same conclusion.......it wouldn't have mattered.
Besides, this is the build Life used to steamroll every Terran that tourney.....never reaching Hive a single time. So it's got some good merit I believe.
I asked this earlier but didn't get too many responses so I'm just going to repost this.
In ZvP, I was watching the Day[9] Daily #625 - Jaedong vs First WCS Semi-Finals P1-P2 where JD went rather early Hive and got 3-3 Ultras. Essentially, the build is kind of like standard ZvT build, skipping Mutas and going for a handful of Infestors, denying Protoss' 3rd, and eventually getting 3-3 Ultras w/ Queen and Infestor support. As a mid-Gold player, my understanding of the game is not all that great but I was wondering what are the weaknesses of this build against a FFE? Is this build safe or is it only good because of Whirlwind?
I was thinking of making this build kind of like my standard because I just LOVE ling-centric play. But I just have some questions:
1. How would this build do against a Protoss player that opted to continue Stargate and make Void Rays? With so many lings, the VRs wouldn't be able to defend that well but you wouldn't be able to break into their nat anyways. Should I just bust in with Banelings and just flood with Lings to seal the game and would that not work? Maybe switch to Muta play because I would be banking gas anyways and Mutas VS VRs is actually not that bad.
2. What if the Protoss player decides to just stay in their base and get 200/200 because they can't get their 3rd anymore? Is this when busting in with Banelings a good idea?
3. And finally, if Protoss opened with Robo instead of Stargate, how can I deviate this build to combat Robo? Or does this ling flood still work against earlier Collosi? Maybe I can go into Mutas and stay on Lair for a bit longer?
I was thinking of making this build kind of like my standard because I just LOVE ling-centric play. But I just have some questions:
1. Keep adding Queens while picking up some Infestors on your way to Ultras. Banelings are unreliable and will get hard countered by VR and FFs. You could always switch to Muta/Corruptor or Hydralisk/SH but if your trying to learn a "Ling-centric into Ultra" build I'd stick with Queens/Infestors/Lings/Ultras as your main forces.
2. Expand everywhere and RE-Max with the perfect counter unit......whatever that may be at the time.
3. In DreamHack Leenock vs Naniwa - Leenock was using the Ling/early evos/Ultra build and as soon as he spotted eary Robotics Bay he immediately threw down a Spire > Corruptors > and then transitioned to Hive/Ultra. And IMO, try watching Leenocks Z vs P Ling/Ultra games and builds. He had quite a bit more success with his style. Matter of fact, Naniwa beat Jaedong (who was going Ling/Ultra style) while Leenock beat Naniwa in the finals.
Final game of DreamHack Open 2013 (jump to 1:30:00 mark for final game): Leenock (early gas/evos/lings/corruptor/ultra) vs NaNiwa, who goes early Robotics Bay.. Side note........Game 1 Leenock also uses early gas > 2 early evos > into Ultras.
On September 07 2013 01:59 11B wrote: I think it counts ^^. Gotta take into account Life's macro kicked in before the 11:30 mark....or right before Terran begins powering up. So even if he had a few more mines a 5 hatch flood vs 1 Factory mine does fine. Day[9] actually talked about this same subject in part 3 and came to same conclusion.......it wouldn't have mattered.
Besides, this is the build Life used to steamroll every Terran that tourney.....never reaching Hive a single time. So it's got some good merit I believe.
Noone's dissing the build. it's just that as a non-pro player, mines hurt me a lot and while I could probably handle that specific engagement well enough to win (against masters at least), there is no way I would be as successful if the Terran added 6 mines.
From the Life-Jjakji game it looks as if he's more or less defenseless until 12, sort of a very greedy timing.
The way it looks is that any 11 minute timing would completely crush it, as some can be much more offensive than Life's drone-> commit two minutes -> drone -> defend/commit/kill - albeit less good and lacking follow-up.
Is biomine always incredibly greedy to be viable, or is this mostly Jjakji's choice for this game ?
Also, Jjakji looks rather passive until the attack, although he has the capability to do mine/marine drops, is that part of his greed or is it because Life would crush his attempts at that point ?
I have been losing vs Protoss in the early-mid game ALOT. Especially vs Gateway allins. I generally like playing a Mutalisk style, but I transition to them when I know toss is not 2 base allining me. Vs 2 base allins, how many drones should I have? I often find that I cant drone to 66 drones fast enough before I get gateway allined. Any help appreciated.
On September 07 2013 01:59 11B wrote: I think it counts ^^. Gotta take into account Life's macro kicked in before the 11:30 mark....or right before Terran begins powering up. So even if he had a few more mines a 5 hatch flood vs 1 Factory mine does fine. Day[9] actually talked about this same subject in part 3 and came to same conclusion.......it wouldn't have mattered.
Besides, this is the build Life used to steamroll every Terran that tourney.....never reaching Hive a single time. So it's got some good merit I believe.
Noone's dissing the build. it's just that as a non-pro player, mines hurt me a lot and while I could probably handle that specific engagement well enough to win (against masters at least), there is no way I would be as successful if the Terran added 6 mines.
From the Life-Jjakji game it looks as if he's more or less defenseless until 12, sort of a very greedy timing.
The way it looks is that any 11 minute timing would completely crush it, as some can be much more offensive than Life's drone-> commit two minutes -> drone -> defend/commit/kill - albeit less good and lacking follow-up.
Is biomine always incredibly greedy to be viable, or is this mostly Jjakji's choice for this game ?
Also, Jjakji looks rather passive until the attack, although he has the capability to do mine/marine drops, is that part of his greed or is it because Life would crush his attempts at that point ?
Actually I think the only reason Life's build and timing worked, is because Belshir doesnt allow for "three easy bases", thereby forcing the terran to split forces.
When Life attacked, he totally ignored the third, and Jjakji's forces were forced to fall back to help defend the natural, which of course put them in a horrible situation, with the banelings, speedlings and mostly, no appropriate mine placement.
Had this been a "3 safe bases" map, that kind of attack wouldn't do much damage there, and Jjakji's counter would have been devastating.
That being said, it's good to remember that on this kind of map, ling/bane into ling/bane/muta is more than viable.
Which begs the question: what the hell are zerg supposed to do on "three easy bases" maps vs 4M ? SoulKey and Life videos were both about 2safe + 1unsafe base maps.
On September 07 2013 23:49 LucoxP wrote: I have been losing vs Protoss in the early-mid game ALOT. Especially vs Gateway allins. I generally like playing a Mutalisk style, but I transition to them when I know toss is not 2 base allining me. Vs 2 base allins, how many drones should I have? I often find that I cant drone to 66 drones fast enough before I get gateway allined. Any help appreciated.
1. 4-gate ? 3gate-robo ? 7gate ? without information that makes no sense 2. 6.30 / 10.00 timing ? 3. there are countless posts in this thread that talk about 4-gate and maybe even 7-gate. Read them.
On September 07 2013 23:49 LucoxP wrote: I have been losing vs Protoss in the early-mid game ALOT. Especially vs Gateway allins. I generally like playing a Mutalisk style, but I transition to them when I know toss is not 2 base allining me. Vs 2 base allins, how many drones should I have? I often find that I cant drone to 66 drones fast enough before I get gateway allined. Any help appreciated.
1. 4-gate ? 3gate-robo ? 7gate ? without information that makes no sense 2. 6.30 / 10.00 timing ? 3. there are countless posts in this thread that talk about 4-gate and maybe even 7-gate. Read them.
7 gate mainly yea, I just keep losing to it. How many drones should I stop at? I generally get a RW at around 6:30. They hit around 7:00 and then do the big big push a minute or so later.
Had this been a "3 safe bases" map, that kind of attack wouldn't do much damage there, and Jjakji's counter would have been devastating.
I'll re-iterate from my previous post.......... Besides, this is the build Life used to steamroll every Terran that tourney (it wasn't just one map).....never reaching Hive a single time. So I don't agree with your other points. So we agree to disagree. If you don't like the build use something else
And........Bel Shir Ves (sp?) is widely accepted as being favored for Terran in this MU because it's normally quite difficult for Zerg to get a 4th base. So when a Zerg does well on this map its quite impressive imo.
EPT
Imo, good builds let you reach 44 supply nlt 5:50 (6:00 is too late ^) and 75-78 supply nlt 8:00. If you can do those 2 things on a regular basis you should be in excellent shape. 
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