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morgoth813
43 Posts
On September 03 2013 15:20 11B wrote: I did a few post up: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=402752¤tpage=109#2173 That was against a 1base 4gate right ? or did I miss something ? @Vies, I think you're talking about MSC+stalker/zealot pressure, is that correct ? | ||
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Shottaz
United Kingdom414 Posts
Other that not being a noob. I know he basically won through my inability to respond correctly. Do I go evo, spine and queen to defend or tech to lair earlier and get overseer with lings? I lost the game becuase I didnt even consider it but if I see a WM spam, what should I do? | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On September 03 2013 14:15 Vies wrote: Hi Guys I recently switched to Zerg and am having trouble vs a protoss that opens for a 1 gate FE with MsC. From a bit of research I have seen pro zergs opt for a fast gas for speed + roach warren. But this delays my 3rd and I don't know where to go from there. Does anyone have a build order or general plan when facing 1 gate FE zvp? Well, I have one, but it's probably not what you are looking for: 15hatch 16pool 16gas drones out of gas @100, speed + 2queens asap zerglings & Overlords until he dies  | ||
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morgoth813
43 Posts
On September 03 2013 21:25 Shottaz wrote: I only got HoTS recently. I'm getting served by Widow Mines atm, what is the counter to reactorfact widow mines rallied directly to your expo and buried before lair. Other that not being a noob. I know he basically won through my inability to respond correctly. Do I go evo, spine and queen to defend or tech to lair earlier and get overseer with lings? I lost the game becuase I didnt even consider it but if I see a WM spam, what should I do? if it's just one mine, you can trigger it with an overlord and return to mining right after. (the ov won't die) if it's a lot of mines, one spore and one spine will clear them all - that may need uprooting but still. in HotS spores suck except against muta, but they're available from pool. You should probably prevent them from reaching into your mineral line though, by harassing the mine before it reaches your mineral line. | ||
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RaFox17
Finland4581 Posts
On September 03 2013 21:41 Big J wrote: Well, I have one, but it's probably not what you are looking for: 15hatch 16pool 16gas drones out of gas @100, speed + 2queens asap zerglings & Overlords until he dies Precisely my favourite tactic also :D | ||
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Vies
Australia57 Posts
Sounds interesting... Do either of you have a replay or a pro vod of someone doing this? | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On September 03 2013 23:00 Vies wrote: Sounds interesting... Do either of you have a replay or a pro vod of someone doing this? The build order is actually 16gas/15pool not the other way around. Master vs Master (though at the first one I was right after my placement match, so still diamond) http://drop.sc/357116 http://drop.sc/357117 Neither of those two are really good examples (but they are the only ones I have currently), because in both cases the Protoss just was caught extremly offguard. The important information for this BO is: If he doesn't scout/block you, you can go for the hatch first, but it could still be a forge expand. In that case, you have to be aware of a canonrush and once your overlord sees the forgeexpand, you should abandon the attack and go for a 3rd instead (keep the speed; hatch first into speed is quite a good macro opening as well and you can really deny all forms of pylons on the map with good zergling placement) The way to counter this is to close the wall at the front, or to build a wall at the ramp and close it, while defending the expansion with the nexus canon. Just using the nexus canon is usually not enough, because you can just go to the other base instead and kill the main. | ||
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zerge
Germany162 Posts
On September 03 2013 14:15 Vies wrote: Hi Guys I recently switched to Zerg and am having trouble vs a protoss that opens for a 1 gate FE with MsC. From a bit of research I have seen pro zergs opt for a fast gas for speed + roach warren. But this delays my 3rd and I don't know where to go from there. Does anyone have a build order or general plan when facing 1 gate FE zvp? Hi, you can not take a fast third, get speed and roaches. Your options are: 1. Get a quick 3rd like against ffe (4:00), then Gas immidiatly after, you have to scout then if your opponent is going going for fast 4 gate pressure (scout the main gas, 1 gas usually means fast pressure, and look for tech buildings in the wall in, when do his gates at the front go down?). If you think he is going for a 4 gate pressure get your roach warren before 5 minutes and Produce roaches once it finishes, dont get ling speed. Produce roaches and slow lings untill the pressure is over. If you scout a tech opener you can get ling speed and a later roach warren. 2. Get a quick gas 3:20 at latest after pool-hatch/hatch-pool, get 3 queens, pull off gas once you start metabolic boost. The rest of the build goes like this: 30/36 Overlord 44/44 Overlord send Drone to 3rd (will arrive when you have 300 minerals at 6 minutes) Roach Warrnen Refill gas in the main take 2nd gas start zergling production edit: The best openers against gate expand are certainly hatch-gas-pool or hatch-hatch-gas-pool i would label these as metagame builds i wouldn't do them against random oponents on ladder unless you enjoy getting proxy gated or cannon rushed. Going hatch-gas-pool on 4 player maps will probably work more often then not although it is not a safe build. With any opener you pretty much always have to produce a round of zerglings at the 6 minute mark because of the threat of some light 3 gate pressure. Only skip these if you know exactly what your oponent is up to. | ||
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jdsowa
405 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On September 04 2013 01:44 jdsowa wrote: Just curious for people's thoughts.. I haven't really seen much burrowed bane usage in ZvT HOTS. It seems that mines allow T to safely hold position in the middle of the map with their army. When Z attacks, they retreat back to their mine field. If you have scattered pockets of burrowed banes, it would make them far more cautious about moving out in this fashion. Then you haven't watched a lot of ZvT. Especially Jaedong, but also Leenock and Life have used baneling mines extensively. Though the more successful Zergs - Soulkey, hyvaa, Symbol, KangHo - seem to use them less. | ||
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MstrJinbo
United States1251 Posts
On September 04 2013 01:44 jdsowa wrote: Just curious for people's thoughts.. I haven't really seen much burrowed bane usage in ZvT HOTS. It seems that mines allow T to safely hold position in the middle of the map with their army. When Z attacks, they retreat back to their mine field. If you have scattered pockets of burrowed banes, it would make them far more cautious about moving out in this fashion. If you watched JD vs Polt or JD vs Bomber there was a good amount of burrowed banes. Terrans nowadays save up lots of scans because they also want to clear creep (well, unless you are bomber). Also terrans dont bait with their entire marine force. They try to bait a response with 10-12 marines wheel everything else is behind pre spread and ready to stim forward small groups once all the banes are dead. Basically, JD never really got off huge money baneling blasts and tended to only get like 6 -8 marines for each unscanned trap. | ||
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ReMinD_
Croatia846 Posts
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MstrJinbo
United States1251 Posts
On September 04 2013 02:12 ReMinD_ wrote: I've once blown up ~ 30 marines with 3 burrowed banelings. Needles to say, I won that game. But this was on Neo Planet S. On most maps you need to get lucky with burrow locations. Progamers make their own luck sometimes. Soulkey was the first I saw doing this but they will position their burrowed bane in between the marines and the flock of mutas. The mutas will poke the marines and try to get them to chase over the burrows banelings. | ||
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morgoth813
43 Posts
On September 04 2013 02:28 MstrJinbo wrote: Progamers make their own luck sometimes. Soulkey was the first I saw doing this but they will position their burrowed bane in between the marines and the flock of mutas. The mutas will poke the marines and try to get them to chase over the burrows banelings. You can also do that in a much less obvious fashion, i.e. poking with a bunch of lings where he needs to backup after having mined the path. | ||
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ZigZiglar
Australia2 Posts
Ill be working on a terran one next, so any suggestions also welcome. Protoss Actions 1. 4:30 Check natural base has been taken 2. 6:00 Check gas mined at natural 3. 6:30 Sac OL at main (and natural if necessary) 4. 9:00 Check third has been taken Reactions 1. Poke his main with lings and check army composition/gas expenditure - if still no natural by 5:00, sac an OL. 2. If no gas, assume mineral heavy play; aggressive gateway builds/all ins - get a roach warren and build army and spines if still no indication of gas by 6:30-7:00 3. Look where chronoboost is being spent/if upgrades are being researched. 4. If no third by 9:30-10:00, assume 2 base all-in and drop spines and spam army and ling patrol for proxy pylons. Cheers! | ||
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Buddy168
United States157 Posts
So I know on paper it's not a great idea but vs Terran, I've been struggling staying interesting in the MU, I don't like going ling/bane/muta so much. It's just not my style, even though I know it's really the best way to fight 4M. Now for the question, would it be viable to go ling/bane/hydra/infestor rather than ling/bane/muta? | ||
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Qgelfich
Germany90 Posts
I just feel like i never get any mapcontroll whatsoever with any style. They start with the hellions and by the time i push those back or clean them up, the mine marine medivac party starts at my front door. | ||
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11B
United States188 Posts
Now for the question, would it be viable to go ling/bane/hydra/infestor rather than ling/bane/muta? It's not the norm but it's fine in my eyes. The only real reason Muta/Ling/Bling is preferred is because it's more mobile, lets you react to drops better, and helps keep Medivac count down to a reasonable level. But on the flip side, Hydra's with range do great vs mines and if you land fungals you can do quite well. Personally, I wouldn't get more than 10-12 Hydras. Use them mostly for mines and some Medivac sniping in main encounters. The down side is you'll need more static defense.....and some more lings/blings back home to react. My suggestion would be change up the standard gasless opening slightly........at least in terms of how your spending your gas. A standard Z vs T opening follows something like Hatch > Pool > 2x gas around 5:25ish > 3rd Hatch 6:00 > get speed 1st 100g > 2x evo at 7:00 and then start +1/1 with next 250g > 2x gas around 7:00 -> start Lair around 8:00. If you're going Ling/Bling/Hydra/Infestor I'd swap the Lair and upgrade timings around (but still get 2x evo at 7:00 for Hellion blocks). So start ling speed at the normal 6:25 but start Lair with the next 100g after that, so around 6:50. This way, if you throw down IP and Den at same time you can have upgraded Infestors on the field around 11:10 seconds......before Terrans first big push. Besides, most Terran start dual upgrades around 8:00 themselves......which is the same time you'd be getting yours if you flip flopped Lair/Upgrade timings. | ||
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morgoth813
43 Posts
On September 04 2013 16:08 Qgelfich wrote: Hey guys, does anyone have special tactics vs the 4M ZvT? Muta ling bane gets rolled sooner or later since they can out eco me because im nonstop pressured and the mines and well split bio doesnt get cleaned up easily enough.... they keep on rallying and take a 4th and eventually my defense breaks because i cant keep up with the pressure. I tried ling bane roach infestor into fast ultras with some success but that forces me to spend millions on static defense vs drops and if i lose one fight the game is over because they roll all my expos which ive fought for over the course of the game. I just feel like i never get any mapcontroll whatsoever with any style. They start with the hellions and by the time i push those back or clean them up, the mine marine medivac party starts at my front door. http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-565-liquidsnute-zvt-vs-mine-openings-p1-6563117 You (like me) lose to 4M because you feel under pressure, way more than there actually is pressure, and treat mines as all-powerful items of death. In order to win you must: 1) learn to repel reapers until you lose no workers (or almost) 2) learn to repel hellions until you lose no workers (or almost) 3) learn to handle mine shots, be it with suicide lings, leading overlords or whatever. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On September 04 2013 16:03 Buddy168 wrote: Okay. So I know on paper it's not a great idea but vs Terran, I've been struggling staying interesting in the MU, I don't like going ling/bane/muta so much. It's just not my style, even though I know it's really the best way to fight 4M. Now for the question, would it be viable to go ling/bane/hydra/infestor rather than ling/bane/muta? I think that infestors and hydras are fine on some maps where the ground layout doesn't allow a Terran to basejump very fast with drops (like Derelicted) and there aren't a thousand angles to drop in. But on maps like Whirlwind or Akilon I think that mutas are obligatory if you don't want to gamble on no/bad dropplay. | ||
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