EPTThe HotS Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 111
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Falcon-sw
United States324 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On September 05 2013 08:32 Falcon-sw wrote: I scouted a proxy three rax from my opponent, went 14 hatch, no expansion, and got rolled by bunkers and marines creeping towards my mineral line. I went for speed immediately, threw down a spine immediately, and it still didn't matter. Do I need to pull workers and kill the SCVs building the barracks? If you scout it early enough to pull workers and kill the scv's do it. It's like a free win for you. Also proxy 3 rax isn't any better then proxy 2 rax, so sounds like the guy is doing it wrong as well. You should pull workers in general vs proxy rax and try to stop bunkers going up or surround the marines if possible. | ||
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Falcon-sw
United States324 Posts
On September 05 2013 09:16 blade55555 wrote: If you scout it early enough to pull workers and kill the scv's do it. It's like a free win for you. Also proxy 3 rax isn't any better then proxy 2 rax, so sounds like the guy is doing it wrong as well. You should pull workers in general vs proxy rax and try to stop bunkers going up or surround the marines if possible. Thanks a bunch. I'll pull next time. | ||
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learning88
United States160 Posts
If I was playing against a Muta player, Spores essentially keep me safe and if they decide to attack with lings, they would be behind in melee upgrades so they'd be rather useless. Against Roach/Hydra, my lings should either be ahead or even with their range upgrades and SH should be able to aid in the fight with free locusts. I remember back in WoL, you were able to do that but instead of SHs, you would make Infestors and just play defensive behind spines and counterattacking. So in HotS, would like ~12 SHs, spines, 2-2 lings/banes be favorable against 2-2 Roach/Hydra? So the build would be just be like the quick 1-1 melee upgrades that used to be really popular until the Spore buff, transition to Lair and get SHs and spines for defense while getting 2-2 and teching to Hive to get Ultras. Also, in ZvP, I was watching the Day[9] Daily #625 - Jaedong vs First WCS Semi-Finals P1 where JD went rather early Hive and got 3-3 Ultras. Essentially, the build is kind of like standard ZvT build, skipping Mutas and going for a handful of Infestors, denying Protoss' 3rd, and eventually getting 3-3 Ultras w/ Queen and Infestor support. As a mid-Gold player, my understanding of the game is not all that great but I was wondering what are the weaknesses of this build against a FFE? Is this build safe or is it only good because of Whirlwind? I was thinking of making this build kind of like my standard because I just LOVE ling-centric play. But I just have some questions: 1. How would this build do against a Protoss player that opted to continue Stargate and make Void Rays? With so many lings, the VRs wouldn't be able to defend that well but you wouldn't be able to break into their nat anyways. Should I just bust in with Banelings and just flood with Lings to seal the game and would that not work? Maybe switch to Muta play because I would be banking gas anyways and Mutas VS VRs is actually not that bad. 2. What if the Protoss player decides to just stay in their base and get 200/200 because they can't get their 3rd anymore? Is this when busting in with Banelings a good idea? I'm sorry for the long post but right now, I'm having a difficult time in SC2 and just want to try out ANYTHING!!!!! (except Roaches...I just don't like that unit for some reason -_-) | ||
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11B
United States188 Posts
SH can work fine too but it would take you longer to produce Ultras and the excess gas on SH would limit your initial production. Mass spine/and some spore with 1/1 and then 2/2 lings should be able to hold if you just beelined Ultra, at least in theory (i think lol). If they go muta though I don't really how you can skip on Infestors. So SH vs Muta would then require Infestor/SH/into Ultra. Lot's of time and gas. Another possible negative of getting lots of static D and SH first is once they scout it all they need to do is switch to SH themselves, and take more bases than you (they should be able too because they wasted less $$ on defense) > and transition into SH/BL. So I think SH is perfectly viable but I'm curious as to how effective > at least when you beeline it. I'd be curious to hear some more thoughts on it.  | ||
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learning88
United States160 Posts
 And I don't know about you guys but for me, Roach/Hydra with Infested Terrans seemed to ruin my Ultras because the Infested Terrans would mess up the pathing of my Ultras and they just died attacking ITs instead of the Roach/Hydras. Maybe if I had Baneling support, that would've nullified that since the splash on the IT would get on their army if they were close enough? | ||
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11B
United States188 Posts
100 speed 100 lair 100 pit 100 +1 150 +1 200 Locust 150 +1 225 +1 1200 on SH That's 2400 in gas before you even start making your Hive/Ultra Den/and Ultras. I'm not saying it won't work but it will definitely take quite a bit more time to accomplish yea? | ||
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Destruktor
Spain60 Posts
Thanks in advance. | ||
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Dingodile
4135 Posts
14*pool 16*hatch 21*hatch (?) I dont like that I have 400minerals at 18~supply because I dont have larvas at this point to build something, so than I build my 3rd at ~18* to keep my minerals low. edit: I always hit 90supply (mass roaches) at 9min but without this "problem" I am sure I can build more units at 9min mark. | ||
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morgoth813
43 Posts
On September 05 2013 13:39 learning88 wrote: In ZvZ, I was wondering, because of how effective Spores are against Mutas, can I transition from a 1-1 ling composition into like 12 Swarm Hosts while getting 2-2 melee ups and go for quick Ultras w/ 5-3 against both playstyles of Mutas and Roach/Hydra? If I was playing against a Muta player, Spores essentially keep me safe and if they decide to attack with lings, they would be behind in melee upgrades so they'd be rather useless. Against Roach/Hydra, my lings should either be ahead or even with their range upgrades and SH should be able to aid in the fight with free locusts. I remember back in WoL, you were able to do that but instead of SHs, you would make Infestors and just play defensive behind spines and counterattacking. So in HotS, would like ~12 SHs, spines, 2-2 lings/banes be favorable against 2-2 Roach/Hydra? So the build would be just be like the quick 1-1 melee upgrades that used to be really popular until the Spore buff, transition to Lair and get SHs and spines for defense while getting 2-2 and teching to Hive to get Ultras. Also, in ZvP, I was watching the Day[9] Daily #625 - Jaedong vs First WCS Semi-Finals P1 where JD went rather early Hive and got 3-3 Ultras. Essentially, the build is kind of like standard ZvT build, skipping Mutas and going for a handful of Infestors, denying Protoss' 3rd, and eventually getting 3-3 Ultras w/ Queen and Infestor support. As a mid-Gold player, my understanding of the game is not all that great but I was wondering what are the weaknesses of this build against a FFE? Is this build safe or is it only good because of Whirlwind? I was thinking of making this build kind of like my standard because I just LOVE ling-centric play. But I just have some questions: 1. How would this build do against a Protoss player that opted to continue Stargate and make Void Rays? With so many lings, the VRs wouldn't be able to defend that well but you wouldn't be able to break into their nat anyways. Should I just bust in with Banelings and just flood with Lings to seal the game and would that not work? Maybe switch to Muta play because I would be banking gas anyways and Mutas VS VRs is actually not that bad. 2. What if the Protoss player decides to just stay in their base and get 200/200 because they can't get their 3rd anymore? Is this when busting in with Banelings a good idea? I'm sorry for the long post but right now, I'm having a difficult time in SC2 and just want to try out ANYTHING!!!!! (except Roaches...I just don't like that unit for some reason -_-) The swarmhost ZvZ won't work because it's way too static, and when you will start pressuring him, he'll just backstab you all over the place. And remember mos of the game happens outside of your base, so spores at your base are really not as great as they sound. If you're mid-gold, don't bother with any complex build, just do one simple all-roundish build, try to execute it perfectly every game you play. Probably a pool first. (as in 14+p, not 10) Void rays suck vs queens. just make more queens and more hatcheries. Don't forget to creep spread, and w/ two infestors and a bunch of queens you'll be ahead in no time. If a toss is static, you can probably get static too, so start swarmhosting and static D in front of his base like hell. You can add infestor and viper to make it even worse for him, but wasting banelings on his wall + colo doesn't sound very good. A ling flood is useless if he has enough colo or sentries or storm or even zealots. not a good choice. | ||
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morgoth813
43 Posts
On September 05 2013 14:59 learning88 wrote: Yea I used to do what Blade55555 said in his thread but it never turned out to be solid for me because it only worked when my opponent was worse than me unforetunately And I don't know about you guys but for me, Roach/Hydra with Infested Terrans seemed to ruin my Ultras because the Infested Terrans would mess up the pathing of my Ultras and they just died attacking ITs instead of the Roach/Hydras. Maybe if I had Baneling support, that would've nullified that since the splash on the IT would get on their army if they were close enough? IT = slow, just bait the IT, retreat, reengage and go for the kill. you'll want infestors to keep him in place while you shred him. | ||
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morgoth813
43 Posts
On September 05 2013 18:57 Dingodile wrote: how is the best 3rd pool opening (ZvP)? 14*pool 16*hatch 21*hatch (?) I dont like that I have 400minerals at 18~supply because I dont have larvas at this point to build something, so than I build my 3rd at ~18* to keep my minerals low. edit: I always hit 90supply (mass roaches) at 9min but without this "problem" I am sure I can build more units at 9min mark. In don't see the point of pool first w/ 3 hatch fast. what I am sure of is that 90 supply of roaches by 9 minutes is worse than what you can do with a more standard BO. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=402752¤tpage=87#1736 | ||
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Dingodile
4135 Posts
my question about "3rd pool opening" is very wrong, a very wrong title xD | ||
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RaiZ
2813 Posts
On September 05 2013 19:23 morgoth813 wrote: In don't see the point of pool first w/ 3 hatch fast. what I am sure of is that 90 supply of roaches by 9 minutes is worse than what you can do with a more standard BO. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=402752¤tpage=87#1736 Don't listen to him, it's perfectly fine to build a pool first followed by 2* hatches (edited). Especially when a lot of protoss like to proxy gates. Happened a lot lately... 2nd edit : Wait i'm not sure what exactly is the problem here ? 3rd hatch @ 18 suppy or 22 or 24, it's pretty much the same. That late 3rd from IIB or whatever his name is (Belial is that you ?) was pretty unexpected but he still managed to get 100+ supply @ 9 min. The only problem I see here is the 90 supply only @ 9 min, but that could happen all the time especially if you get harrassed a little or when the protoss isn't doing your standard FFE. | ||
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DjayEl
France252 Posts
I also see some players doing a 3 hatch before pool opening after scouting a CC first, but I tried the build a lot at slow speed vs AI and it does not seem to get me any better economy than the 2 base (3rd at 6:00) and fast 4 queens Scarlett's BO. What in your opinion is the best go-to opening vs Terran if I want to go full macro and be extremely greedy, but without outright dying if T opens gas ? Thank guys! | ||
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morgoth813
43 Posts
On September 05 2013 20:16 RaiZ wrote: Don't listen to him, it's perfectly fine to build a pool first followed by 2* hatches (edited). Especially when a lot of protoss like to proxy gates. Happened a lot lately... 2nd edit : Wait i'm not sure what exactly is the problem here ? 3rd hatch @ 18 suppy or 22 or 24, it's pretty much the same. That late 3rd from IIB or whatever his name is (Belial is that you ?) was pretty unexpected but he still managed to get 100+ supply @ 9 min. The only problem I see here is the 90 supply only @ 9 min, but that could happen all the time especially if you get harrassed a little or when the protoss isn't doing your standard FFE. If you're going to 3-hatch, it's not going to be in the face of a proxy gate. If you're going to pool first, it makes NO sense at all to go 3 hatch before you get the queens. The main reason you pool first is to have a military advantage. The only way you're going to capitalize is by getting queens, which in turn will reveal the macro benefit of making a pool, thereby bringing you closer to a greedier build economy wise. That being said, proxy gate is something you *react* to, not something you base your build on. In my humble opinion, pool first 3 hatch is a bad choice, because you would rather pool first 2base 2 queens then fast third OR simply 3hatch right away. i'd like Blade, 11B or any other one of the good players in this thread's opinion though. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On September 05 2013 21:41 morgoth813 wrote: If you're going to 3-hatch, it's not going to be in the face of a proxy gate. If you're going to pool first, it makes NO sense at all to go 3 hatch before you get the queens. The main reason you pool first is to have a military advantage. The only way you're going to capitalize is by getting queens, which in turn will reveal the macro benefit of making a pool, thereby bringing you closer to a greedier build economy wise. That being said, proxy gate is something you *react* to, not something you base your build on. In my humble opinion, pool first 3 hatch is a bad choice, because you would rather pool first 2base 2 queens then fast third OR simply 3hatch right away. i'd like Blade, 11B or any other one of the good players in this thread's opinion though. Both things are viable: pool-->hatch-->queen-->queen-->hatch--queen and pool-->hatch-->queen-->hatch--queen-->queen but the second one is more economical as you actually have the money/larva to build 3drones instead of the second queen at that time. You won't get larvablocked with that build anyways, though the second queen is really just for creep at that point. Creep is pretty good and the difference is tiny. (like 50minerals worth of mining time and a larva that you lose) If you could you'd want to get away with hatch-->hatch-->hatch-->pool-->queen-->queen-->queen against a FFE, but that is risky as it could be a gateway expand, a canon rush at the natural or third or a proxy two gate. @Dingodile Not sure if it is the best way to open, but my BO against a FFE is usually: 14pool 15hatch (if the natural is blocked, take the 3rd first) 14queen 16zergling 17overlord spend all my larva in my main on drones and take the third (not sure what supply, I guess 20-21 or something like that) then drones and an overlord (don't get supply blocked at 28) and the second queen on the natural | ||
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morgoth813
43 Posts
On September 05 2013 23:29 Big J wrote: Both things are viable: pool-->hatch-->queen-->queen-->hatch--queen and pool-->hatch-->queen-->hatch--queen-->queen but the second one is more economical as you actually have the money/larva to build 3drones instead of the second queen at that time. You won't get larvablocked with that build anyways, though the second queen is really just for creep at that point. If you could you'd want to get away with hatch-->hatch-->hatch-->pool-->queen-->queen-->queen against a FFE, but that is risky as it could be a gateway expand, a canon rush at the natural or third or a proxy two gate. if you pick a less economical build, its probably not for its more economical variant, but ok | ||
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RaiZ
2813 Posts
On September 05 2013 23:32 morgoth813 wrote: if you pick a less economical build, its probably not for its more economical variant, but ok May I know what build were you talking about ? The one from catz or something which is like 3 hatch before pool ? Then yeah, I don't know which build is better as i'm not familiar with it. | ||
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11B
United States188 Posts
i'd like Blade, 11B or any other one of the good players in this thread's opinion though. I'm not good ^^. I'm more talk! 2 years ago I was mid-high masters in WoL (bar code account baby!) but now I haven't even played ladder in HoTs lol. My mechanics and skills are quite diminished ^^. I'd probably have to work 1-2 hours a day just to reach high Diamond!! That late 3rd from IIB or whatever his name is (Belial is that you ?) was pretty unexpected but he still managed to get 100+ supply @ 9 min. My name is Sean ^......... and that late 3rd was plopped down at 5:20 (my other variation is 4:40) seconds and at 9 minutes I was actually at 117 supply Imo, good builds let you reach 44 supply nlt 5:50 (6:00 is too late ^) and 75-78 supply nlt 8:00. If you can do those 2 things on a regular basis you should be in excellent shape. | ||
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