EPTThe HotS Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 10
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jaguarz
Hong Kong21 Posts
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Diddywhop
United States42 Posts
On March 21 2013 15:08 roadrunner343 wrote: I would actually like a further in depth response to this as well. I too am a mid-master zerg, and have been since the league was created in WOL. I have 2 finishes in diamond, the first season, and last season when I took a 4 month break for GW2. Still, I was right back up to mid-high master in no time. I too play with almost no build order. I play almost entirely off of intuition. I disagree with the one response that said you will find you don't know what to do when an awkward situation arises; I find this to be more true of people who stick to rigic build orders. Playing by feel, I can see when the opponent does something weird, and react based on my game sense (Generally, anyways). It's got me this far, but I too wonder if the lack of optimized build orders is hurting me. I used to play super reactively in WoL, so my build order was always Drones, into drones, transition to more drones, build enough to barely survive, more drones, then crush. In HotS, I feel like you have to play more aggressively, so optimized BO may help... thoughts? Thanks in advance. Yeah any more opinions on the matter would be great. I actually agree with the above quote. I would think if it helped at all, it would be in the scenario where the game leaves the meta. | ||
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Dreamer.T
United States3584 Posts
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Servius_Fulvius
United States947 Posts
On March 21 2013 15:08 roadrunner343 wrote: I disagree with the one response that said you will find you don't know what to do when an awkward situation arises; I find this to be more true of people who stick to rigic build orders. Playing by feel, I can see when the opponent does something weird, and react based on my game sense (Generally, anyways). All build orders are fluid. Build orders found on liquipedia assume you're left alone, but I agree that one rigidly following the build will get crushed when the opponent doesn't leave you alone. The advantage to using a build is structure. Deviations are common, and once you've defended something strange you can continue your plan immediately. It focuses more on quantitative milestones instead of "this feels right". The focal point of a build is to optimize your strategy, so a well-refined build will probably get you to your goal faster than intuition. Keep in mind that if you play enough games the timings and reactions of the build become intuitive based on sheer level of practice. Also, following a build does not make up for bad mechanics. If you can't spend your money, hit injects, and scout then you're probably going to lose regardless of strategy. You don't need a build order to have good macro and scouting and it's been well-established that good macro alone can get you to masters league. Therefore, if you took two players of equal macro/scouting where one followed a build order and the other did not, I think that the player following the build has an advantage because they can get to their goal faster. Ultimately, if you enjoy playing without a build then keep doing it. Don't let my opinion or the opinions of others put a stop to that. | ||
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SirPsychoMantis
United States180 Posts
On March 22 2013 02:21 Dreamer.T wrote: Not a zerg player, but was just wondering, do zergs use swarm host much? I hear they are amazing if you get lots of them when you have a lead on the other player. You don't want to mass them like crazy, but only having a few doesn't do much. The sweet spot for them seems to be having around 12-14, where they are enough to dish out damage, but not too many that you have inactive locusts in the back of the bunch never attacking. I have been doing a SH/nidus/spore/queen all in against P that is pretty effective and seems to induce a lot of rage out of my opponents. | ||
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DeCoup
Australia1933 Posts
On March 22 2013 03:14 SirPsychoMantis wrote: You don't want to mass them like crazy, but only having a few doesn't do much. The sweet spot for them seems to be having around 12-14, where they are enough to dish out damage, but not too many that you have inactive locusts in the back of the bunch never attacking. I have been doing a SH/nidus/spore/queen all in against P that is pretty effective and seems to induce a lot of rage out of my opponents. Oh yeah. Any early SH push induces a lot of rage from my P opponents too haha. | ||
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StillRooney
Sweden106 Posts
http://drop.sc/311972 Any advice (beyond the obvious work on inject and creep spread)? Should I have scouted more over his base, and if so at what timing? Should I have gone to spire faster? | ||
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ThePianoDentist
United Kingdom698 Posts
On March 22 2013 03:14 SirPsychoMantis wrote: You don't want to mass them like crazy, but only having a few doesn't do much. The sweet spot for them seems to be having around 12-14, where they are enough to dish out damage, but not too many that you have inactive locusts in the back of the bunch never attacking. I have been doing a SH/nidus/spore/queen all in against P that is pretty effective and seems to induce a lot of rage out of my opponents. When i was playing random this was my go-to strat after i think seeing tlo do it. Surely it doesnt even have to be all-in though? You have nydus to save your units incase he gets enough to break you and you are keeping him on 2 base eco even if you are delaying your own third...and when you are attacking with free units being ahead economically isnt as important as usual....anybody know why this isnt standard in zvp? havent been playing zerg recently but just came in this thread today to ask what with the lategame zvp problems has anybody tried combining abduct and neural? people only stopped using neural because it was shorter than colossi range, but with neural + abduct range surely that even outranges tempests? Although it doesn't seem easy to pull off, you'd need to have your non spellcasters on move command or pulled back to stop them instakilling whatever you're trying to abduct neural. | ||
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roadrunner343
148 Posts
On March 22 2013 03:07 Servius_Fulvius wrote: All build orders are fluid. Build orders found on liquipedia assume you're left alone, but I agree that one rigidly following the build will get crushed when the opponent doesn't leave you alone. The advantage to using a build is structure. Deviations are common, and once you've defended something strange you can continue your plan immediately. It focuses more on quantitative milestones instead of "this feels right". The focal point of a build is to optimize your strategy, so a well-refined build will probably get you to your goal faster than intuition. Keep in mind that if you play enough games the timings and reactions of the build become intuitive based on sheer level of practice. Also, following a build does not make up for bad mechanics. If you can't spend your money, hit injects, and scout then you're probably going to lose regardless of strategy. You don't need a build order to have good macro and scouting and it's been well-established that good macro alone can get you to masters league. Therefore, if you took two players of equal macro/scouting where one followed a build order and the other did not, I think that the player following the build has an advantage because they can get to their goal faster. Ultimately, if you enjoy playing without a build then keep doing it. Don't let my opinion or the opinions of others put a stop to that. Thanks for the input. I think what I may be running into was your point of doing something so much, it will eventually become instinctual. I've played several thousands games, and so maybe at this point, I am more or less following builds based on my gut feeling. What I mean is, I've played so many games, I know when throw down my spire in ZvZ, or my baneling nest, or whatever it may be... it's probably very likely that I am following a build almost exactly without realizing it, based solely on watching pro games and my own failures. I mean, if I throw down a spire too early in ZvZ and I keep losing to all ins, then I have to change something in my play, and I do. So maybe saying I don't follow ANY build is a bit off. It's just a don't follow them very rigidly, and I certainly don't follow them after the first few minutes. In WoL this wasn't a huge deal, because I played extremely reactive. EDIT: Just checked my profile... 5601 games. I know there ar eplenty of people with more (And less) than that, but I would say that's enough to start playing intuitively. Maybe getting some refined builds are the way to advance my skills though, maybe even pop into GM someday =) | ||
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A_Scarecrow
Australia721 Posts
On March 21 2013 14:25 A_Scarecrow wrote: Im currently a plat zerg and ran into a masters terran. i had 100% win rate against terran till then and he was the first to go mech. i really didnt have much chance and would like some tips on how to deal with helion siege tank and WM comps around 10-14 min mark cause i just got blown away. also all protosses i verse atm are all'ining everytime. ussually stargate or 7 gate all in. should i stay 2 base or got fast 3? im confused this expansion versing toss atm, just need some help if anyone is willing to reply thanks.  Btw its almost always gateway FE.Anyone? | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
Sorry didn't see that question. So zvt if you face mech going swarmhost/hydra/roach will crush any sort of fast mech push as well as you should be teching hive fast (starting at 11-12 minutes) and getting viper/hydra/swarmhost/ultra as your end game composition. Swarmhosts super good verse mech :D. As for zvp, going fast 3 base is fine you just need to scout the all in coming, have a roach warren and hold with roach/ling. sacrifice an overlord at 6:20 so you can see the gates going down. | ||
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A_Scarecrow
Australia721 Posts
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ManiacTheZealot
United States490 Posts
On March 22 2013 09:06 blade55555 wrote: Sorry didn't see that question. So zvt if you face mech going swarmhost/hydra/roach will crush any sort of fast mech push as well as you should be teching hive fast (starting at 11-12 minutes) and getting viper/hydra/swarmhost/ultra as your end game composition. Swarmhosts super good verse mech :D. As for zvp, going fast 3 base is fine you just need to scout the all in coming, have a roach warren and hold with roach/ling. sacrifice an overlord at 6:20 so you can see the gates going down. Two additions to this. Firstly I think if you get drop against mech regardless of whats happening in the game it's always a good thing. Have it by the time he starts to spread his tanks thin to defend multiple locations and then abuse the hell out of it. But don't over commit. He'll have to get vikings which will weaken his army composition. And secondly against protoss take advantage of the overlord speed upgrade at hatchery tech. Protoss have never been strong attacking zerg without the element of surprise. When they gateway expand that is always a sign they want to be aggressive. Make sure you're ready. 1 zealot/2 stalker/mothership core is the most common follow up in my experience. | ||
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jaguarz
Hong Kong21 Posts
and also question for blade, i asked b4 but no one answered. lets say u get to 5-6bases vs toss n he turtles on 3 for mass carrier voidray what kind of composition can u get to go against that army? i tried everything n nothing seemed to work well | ||
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Deign85
United States13 Posts
On March 22 2013 04:26 StillRooney wrote: I'd love some critique on this ZvP, it's me going roach/hydra vs Colossus on Korhal City. I just switched to zerg in HotS so still learning the ropes. http://drop.sc/311972 Any advice (beyond the obvious work on inject and creep spread)? Should I have scouted more over his base, and if so at what timing? Should I have gone to spire faster? Please take my critique with a grain of salt as I'm no masters player, but here are my comments. I typed up my notes as I watched from your vision and amended them with extra comments after, so if I repeat myself, thats why. Make your overlord on 9 instead of 10. Gj with 2nd overlord (moving it to your natural to scout for any cannon rush cheese. No lings? Should get up a 2-4 lings early to deny the scouting probe and any proxy pylons as well as expansion blocking shenanigans. These lings can be used to scout for 3rd expansion timing (or lack there of). The protoss didn't try to expand by 8 to 10 minutes, this should have been a tip off that he was planning on being pretty aggressive and you could have built units instead of drones in that time. You built 21 drones between the 8 minute mark and when he attacked you. Had you droned up harder in the early game, you could have stopped drone production at 8 minutes and those 21 larva that were drones could have been roaches/hydras or lings (or even corrupters). You take your gas early, but you don't do anything with it. You get ling speed, but you only make 2 lings the entire game. I spose that's fine as you can make lings and have speed if you need them, but I would lean towards having the extra minerals early on if you're not going to attack with the lings. 3:20 - You see 2 gas, so you know there probably wont be much early pressure. (ergo, drone up harder) 5:15 - Whats with the spine crawler? What were you afraid of? Roach warren is relatively early given your scout. I would prefer a faster third instead 8 minutes into the game and you're at 43 drones. You've put on no aggression and you've had no aggression put on you. You should be up higher at 55 to 60 drones under these circumstances. 10minutes in and you haven't scouted for a 3rd base, you have an overlord sitting behind his base that you haven't sent in either. Work on your overlord spread. When you make overlords, give them a rally point where you want them to sit. There's a lot of empty space in the northwest corner of this map. There could have been a drop coming and you wouldn't have known until it was right on top of you. With the lack of knowledge of what your opponent is doing, i would have liked to have seen you build some defensive spores to protect against DTs, oracles, and phoenix. This wouldn't have helped in this case, but it's something to consider in the future. Your attack at around 10:30 started out ok, but you didn't have roach speed and so you weren't able to run away very effectively. You lost a lot of roaches that you shouldn't have. I think you lost this game before the final attack came at you. I think that if you were to have droned up a lot harder earlier on, that you would have been in a financial situation enough to have had a lot bigger of an army. Also your spire was pretty late. It didn't go down for another 90 seconds or so after you saw the first colossi, but you should have seen the robo much sooner with a nice overlord scout. Hope I was helpful | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On March 22 2013 11:38 jaguarz wrote: i checked out blade's overview n start doing roach hydra viper vs mech, if u didnt take too much damage from the hellion n bancheese harrass its almost a sure win just make sure u mass expand a bit and fast tech to hive for the vipers once those are out there is not much the terran can do everytime they seige up u just blinding cloud n engage. that would push them all the way back home. also once u have 5-6 vipers get a couple of infestor for stopping those pesky hellbats from coming close to your army. and also question for blade, i asked b4 but no one answered. lets say u get to 5-6bases vs toss n he turtles on 3 for mass carrier voidray what kind of composition can u get to go against that army? i tried everything n nothing seemed to work well Swarmohst/hydra/ultra/viper will take out that army very well. If he has no templar/colo then hydra/viper is all you need for that :D | ||
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jaguarz
Hong Kong21 Posts
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NightHawXXX
United States16 Posts
Should I be putting put lots of static defense or leave a small group lings & blings at every base? | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On March 22 2013 12:53 jaguarz wrote: how do u engage him if he only has carriers void n zealots n a mothership core. blinding cloud works on interceptors? Oh that's easy, swarmhosts, hydras and use vipers to abduct them. A couple ultras work great to On March 22 2013 13:06 NightHawXXX wrote: I'm having trouble with ZvT against mass drops with marine marauder widow mines. Should I be putting put lots of static defense or leave a small group lings & blings at every base? You need static defense at your bases once you start getting a mineral bank. Leaving a little bit of ling/bane is good to to deal with the drops. | ||
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ETisME
12478 Posts
I am in diamond league only and wondering if any higher league players have tried this composition. I have good success with ling hydra in zvp where I can do run by and kill off two base push relatively easily. Then just transition in muta or swarm host. I have a very unstable win rate against Terran on the other hand. It sometimes work against Terran bio mech and sometimes just fail awfully. A high bio count will just trade relatively better against ling hydra. Even after putting in binding cloud. But if I managed to get into ultra, ling hydra ultra and viper does a not bad job against bio ball But when bio hits 3 3 and high medivac count, I don't know what to do. My game plan overall is to stay lair tech heavy and get the upgrades for armor and hydra. Why not melee is because Ultras do fairly well for dps even without the melee upgrade, especially with binding cloud. Lings purely act as meat shield for hydra In zvp, abduct is useful to kill anything that can hurt the Ultras badly I would just like someone to give me some thoughts because if it isn't viable in higher league for zvt, I will just go back to the usual ling muta. | ||
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