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Have to scout it. If this is happening a lot to you and the only way you scout it is your drone scout, send it earlier. I've been sending my 10th drone as a scout lately to avoid getting cheesed. If you know its coming, you can drop your pool first instead of hatch first and get your spines up sooner.
Specifically:
311754 - If you sent your overlord to your natural as soon as it popped, you would have seen it immediately. You do this in the 2nd game which is good, but they placed the proxy further away. You also saw when you entered his base the first time no gateways which should have been the immediate tip off.
311755 - I doubt you could have scouted it unless you were specifically looking for it there or if you had sent an earlier drone. But what you should have done as soon as you saw it was cancel your hatchery and immediately make spine crawlers. Instead you allowed it to finish and that was 300 minerals you were never going to see again. You weren't going to get enough larva fast enough to make enough lings to kill off the flood of zealots, so spine crawlers would have been your best bet I think.
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On March 21 2013 06:21 Diddywhop wrote:
I find that I don't really play with a build order (past basic mu openings) and go off feel. Is that hurting me?
Yes, playing without a build order is probably hurting you.
Your build order is an optimization of the general idea you have for the game. I'm sure you have a general idea on where to go, and your macro must be good enough to vie with others in masters league (unless you all-in a lot). Let's keep in mind that the game is new and there aren't many optimizations, so you're not likely to find many build orders used by pros.
Your current style of play will probably work as long as you have equal or better macro and whenever your opponent isn't surprising. You seem to be playing through intuition, which will likely fail when in unknown territory.
I think it's a lot better to have a plan, even if it's a rough plan. This way, you can get a lot of repetitive practice with the more common strategies
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On March 21 2013 01:32 kernel_mode wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2013 03:25 kernel_mode wrote:On March 19 2013 18:58 kernel_mode wrote:On March 19 2013 18:04 kernel_mode wrote:Hi! I am a beginner at SC2 HTOS and I have a BIG problems when playing Zerg against AI (not playing with real people for the time being). I am obliterating things with Protoss, but I can't do a thing with Zerg. What am I doing wrong? Thanks in advance for your answers. Zerg replay link Managed to do this in 45 min (brood lord spam)... Still too long. Zerg win replay No one helps me  Link on another replay. ZvT (Veteran AI), I lost again. What I've done wrong? As protoss, I had no problems defeating veteran AI. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/37488240/hots-zerg-veteran-ai.SC2Replay
I took a look at your replay against the Terran AI. Your main issue is that you are simply not making enough workers. It's really easy for zerg players to start making army units too early, but you have to learn to drone up hard in the initial min of the game. Keep in mind you want 16 drones on minerals in each base and 6 in gas. Then it's just a matter of building up units and killing the enemy. Good Luck.
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How viable is a BW-esque Hydra bust in ZvP? I remember Life doing something like it vs MC at this last MLG, although I'm fairly certain it was a response to MC's tendencies for heavy stargate play. I'm thinking something like Stephano's old 12 minute max build, except instead of roaches, you prioritize Hydras w/ speed and Lings. Obviously, vs something like fast colossus, this just dies, but what about in other situations?
I switched to random at the start of HotS, so I'm just trying to learn everything I can about my two new races ^.^
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Hydra bust are situational.
Life just hit a perfect timing when MC was transitioning into third base and teching into collosus tech.
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in zvz, does it help to add in corruptors in muta fight.
I always try to get air armor upgrade as soon as spire finishes. is this okay?
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^ Don't. The whole point of mutas is map control, and corruptors completely lack that. Better off with static defense than corruptors. And you always want to race in armor upgrades. 0-2 beats 1-1 and 2-0 pretty handidly (in muta vs muta it's so random even with 2 less mutas you can sometimes win, though it's still chance). And corruptors aren't really that good against mutas, only in small numbers do corruptors really beat mutas.
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so yesterday i was up against this toss which goes skytoss carriers n voidrays. refer to the hyun vs whitera show match.
couldnt breakin at the beginning n knew he was going sky got like 5bases. but that composition with some zealots on the ground just melt watever i thrown at him. void melts corruptors n hydras vaporized once the toss has like 4-5 carriers with a few voidrays n zealots on the ground. i have the resources like Hyun did in the match vs whitera but nothing seemed to work. has any1 come across it n beat it without like crippling the protoss b4 hand??
edit: HOTS tt. WhiteRa v Quantic.Hyun Bo9 SHOWMATCH g1
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On March 21 2013 12:24 jaguarz wrote:
so yesterday i was up against this toss which goes skytoss carriers n voidrays. refer to the hyun vs whitera show match.
couldnt breakin at the beginning n knew he was going sky got like 5bases. but that composition with some zealots on the ground just melt watever i thrown at him. void melts corruptors n hydras vaporized once the toss has like 4-5 carriers with a few voidrays n zealots on the ground. i have the resources like Hyun did in the match vs whitera but nothing seemed to work. has any1 come across it n beat it without like crippling the protoss b4 hand??
edit: HOTS tt. WhiteRa v Quantic.Hyun Bo9 SHOWMATCH g1
well if they have 5 bases and an upgraded air / storm army you pretty much have to peel them apart, you can't fight straight on. Nyduses and drops is your best ally (with cheap units). I think a good way to prevent them from having such a powerful econ and army is by opening SH. Most protosses didn't find any answer to that.
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Im currently a plat zerg and ran into a masters terran. i had 100% win rate against terran till then and he was the first to go mech. i really didnt have much chance and would like some tips on how to deal with helion siege tank and WM comps around 10-14 min mark cause i just got blown away. also all protosses i verse atm are all'ining everytime. ussually stargate or 7 gate all in. should i stay 2 base or got fast 3? im confused this expansion versing toss atm, just need some help if anyone is willing to reply thanks.  Btw its almost always gateway FE.
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On March 21 2013 06:21 Diddywhop wrote:
I'm a masters Zerg who is having trouble beating top 25 consistently, or even often. I'm curious to those who have experience or similar issue as to how they got over that cusp.
I find that I don't really play with a build order (past basic mu openings) and go off feel. Is that hurting me? If not, do you guys have any suggestions? I will submit replays when I get off work. I haven't noticed much of a skill gap from the leap to high diamond to masters, until I start playing top 25s. After that, the leap is somewhat considerable. I hear it even gets worse when you get closer to top 8.
Thanks
I would actually like a further in depth response to this as well. I too am a mid-master zerg, and have been since the league was created in WOL. I have 2 finishes in diamond, the first season, and last season when I took a 4 month break for GW2. Still, I was right back up to mid-high master in no time.
I too play with almost no build order. I play almost entirely off of intuition. I disagree with the one response that said you will find you don't know what to do when an awkward situation arises; I find this to be more true of people who stick to rigic build orders. Playing by feel, I can see when the opponent does something weird, and react based on my game sense (Generally, anyways). It's got me this far, but I too wonder if the lack of optimized build orders is hurting me.
I used to play super reactively in WoL, so my build order was always Drones, into drones, transition to more drones, build enough to barely survive, more drones, then crush. In HotS, I feel like you have to play more aggressively, so optimized BO may help... thoughts? Thanks in advance.
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Argh haven't played in a year and now my macro's gone to shit. I can keep my mins to a low level and my apm is still high(280), but for some reason eventually I always end up with 2k mins. Any tips to help keep it in check? Maybe a list of things to spend my money on / prioritize.
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On March 21 2013 15:37 agtemd wrote:
Argh haven't played in a year and now my macro's gone to shit. I can keep my mins to a low level and my apm is still high(280), but for some reason eventually I always end up with 2k mins. Any tips to help keep it in check? Maybe a list of things to spend my money on / prioritize.
There's a few things I would suggest looking into. First, you say you CAN keep your minerals low, but you end up with 2k minerals (Which is an oxymoron).
I suppose this means you have the ability to keep them low, but you still for some reason can't. The first thing I would say to look into then is your larvae. Are unable to spend the money because you are out of larvae? If so, work on your injects. If you are hitting your injects, then it's time to add on a macro hatch (Or just expand or double expand with all those minerals).
Finally, if you have 2k minerals, you are hitting your injects, and you have plenty of larvae, it sounds like gas is the hold up. Zerg is very gas hungry, so be sure to get plenty of gas so you can spend those minerals on those expensive units. Hopefully that helps. Could be more help if you list some specific scenarios or replays.
EDIT: Also, your league would help to get a better idea of your overall playing level.
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On March 21 2013 15:43 roadrunner343 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 15:37 agtemd wrote:
Argh haven't played in a year and now my macro's gone to shit. I can keep my mins to a low level and my apm is still high(280), but for some reason eventually I always end up with 2k mins. Any tips to help keep it in check? Maybe a list of things to spend my money on / prioritize. There's a few things I would suggest looking into. First, you say you CAN keep your minerals low, but you end up with 2k minerals (Which is an oxymoron). I suppose this means you have the ability to keep them low, but you still for some reason can't. The first thing I would say to look into then is your larvae. Are unable to spend the money because you are out of larvae? If so, work on your injects. If you are hitting your injects, then it's time to add on a macro hatch (Or just expand or double expand with all those minerals). Finally, if you have 2k minerals, you are hitting your injects, and you have plenty of larvae, it sounds like gas is the hold up. Zerg is very gas hungry, so be sure to get plenty of gas so you can spend those minerals on those expensive units. Hopefully that helps. Could be more help if you list some specific scenarios or replays. EDIT: Also, your league would help to get a better idea of your overall playing level.
Id also like to add the units you choose to produce is a big part of how your money is spent. Making zerglings versus making broodlords/ultralisk are very very different. 10 drones on minerals will give you 100% enough money for lings+overlords with 1 queen on 1 hatch. So think about that before you make zerglings while you bank 2k.
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If you have no gas and are stockpiling minerals, the 2 most common cases disregarding mechanical skill are:
1. You have too many drones.
2. You have too few bases.
Problem 1 can cause you unable to avoid problem 2 because securing bases becomes more difficult, so that's where I'd start. I really hope it's not something simple like forgetting injects because you can check that in replays easily.
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Two quick questions:
1) as a general rule, should I be building production buildings (eg hydra den, baneling nest) preemptively at certain times, or only when I scout they are needed?
2) I have a lot of trouble against cannon rushes, bunkers or pylons at my natural or third expansion, and other assorted cheeses. Ok, that's not a question, but is appreciate some advice.
Thanks in advance.
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For 1: Baneling nest should be preemptive, in ZvZ you should get it either with your first 50 gas if your opponent's speed would finish significantly before yours or with the next 50 gas after speed. In ZvT somewhere between 7-8 mins is standard (get it around the same time as you go lair). Hydra den only when needed (generally the only time is when you scout stargate in ZvP, or mutas in ZvZ if you're committing to a ground army, or possibly against mech in ZvT).
For 2: Need some replays. Defending bunkers and cannons are 2 pretty big topics, there's a lot of different things you could be doing that cause you trouble. But basically, you need to scout your nat and third while hatches are morphing. Letting cannons or bunkers go up without you noticing is often game ending. If you see a bunker going up and its a 2 rax, you need to pull plenty of drones (don't skimp here, pulling 10 or so drones to fight is not unreasonable), and try to stop the bunker going up by killing the scv and screening away the marines with your drones until lings are out. If you know you can't stop the bunker you need 1-2 spine crawlers to fight it, along with plenty of lings. 2 rax kills pro players surprisingly often, it's hard to reliably stop, so don't worry too much if you struggle against it. A more detailed guide to 2 rax can be found in the thread here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=401063. All other bunker rushes can be stopped by just noticing the bunker in time and attacking the scv with a few drones.
Cannons are less difficult, you just need to see the pylon going up and stop it with lings. You shouldn't 15 hatch in ZvP unless you're very confident with your cannon defense. With a 14 or 15 pool into hatch opening your lings will arrive in plenty of time to stop cannons. The most important thing is to either park an overlord or check with a drone to make sure you opponent isn't being sneaky while your hatch is morphing.
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Hey guys, new Zerg here. Was a four time GM protoss but I decided in HotS I wanted to start new, so I need some help in ZvT and ZvZ.
ZvT:
- When is it safe to take my third? I feel like taking my third is such a gamble, and with Terran being hard to scout how do you identify if they are doing a greedy 3rd CC build or tech?
- What is the ideal unit composition in HotS? I've still been doing the 3-3 lings into Ultralisk but I feel like vs. Widow Mines it's really hard to do anything.
- What do I do vs the strong bio/widow mine pushes?
- What's the ideal way to deal with drop oriented play?
- Are vipers a good answer to turtle mech play? Been watching a lot of IdrA stream and he seems to go roach/hydra with vipers vs mech.
ZvZ:
- Is there anything I can do before what is seemingly the annoying muta meta? I'm not sure at highest level but at high master MMR/GM MMR it seems everyone plays ling/bane and rush into muta. From my expierence roach busts seem to have a minimal effect vs. spines and mass ling. It's easy for me to tell when they are going muta, is there anything I can do vs the 2base into 3base muta play?
Thanks for your time! :D
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On March 21 2013 04:11 Requizen wrote:
Every single Toss I come against on ladder FFE's into Stargate, I think I'm just going to blind Spire when I load into ZvP nowadays lol.
Do the rushing Swarmhost build thats floating around here (cant find the link, sorry). With the Swarmhosts buired behind a wall of spores there is nothing Skytoss can really do.
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This question is directed to LiquidRet exactly. I`ve watched VODs of your games vs Suppy and need to say I really enjoyed that. Quite brilliant muta build. But how did it come you have no fear to be all-ined by Z opponent? Cause you build spire really early which grants you metagame advantage but every baneling all-in or even aggresion could kill you as I can see that. What was that: knowledge of opponent or something else?
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EPT
