|
Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
On May 31 2013 08:14 policymaker wrote:
Hi all, high diamond here,
Previous season my TVZ used to be my best matchup. Zerg seem to have figured out hots a bit better right now and its currently a rather weird mu for me, mutalisks either keep me in base or roach hydra kills my usual midgame advantage. If I dont kill his 3rd with some kind of 12ish push, I feel outright helpless. I like dropping a lot, but good overlord spread and a couple of spines keep countering my drops. Cam some1 recommend me a strong mid game transition/composition opting for a macro advantage in the next five minutes so I kill him off? thanx in advance
It's hard to give advice without a replay but I will try to help you.
I'm 1200 point Masters with a 50% TvT and TvP winrate and a 80% TvZ winrate. It's hard to lose the matchup if you are vs a player of similar skill and you have good multitask/speed. Bio/mine is the most solid composition. The 'transition' towards the end of mid game comes from adding maradaurs to your composition to deal with ultras, though with Innovation's style (most recent game he played vs Soulkey in PL) if you simply keep up the aggression for the game's entirety he will never be able to afford an ultra transition because of the constant need of banelings/mutas.
Also, OL's seeing your drops aren't a big deal, because you should never be dropping without doing something else. If you are pushing and clearing creep in the center with bio/mine, and have multiple dropships on the map even if he sees them its hard to react in time. And even then, it's hard to be cost effective while cleaning them up and if he sends his whole army to kill a drop, even if the drop doesn't kill a single unit, it gives you time to make plays elsewhere on the map with your main army.
Your goal is simply to be cost effective, which is very hard not to do with a good widow mine count and decent splitting, and force the zerg to make mistakes. (not game ending mistakes, but like missing an inject because he's dealing with 2 drops, or leaving 5 drones on gas. Little things that add up over time while you wear him down)
"Macro advantage" in the early game should never be your goal, as it means you're too reliant on a coinflip build. With standard 14 cc, or reaper, cc cc (you can build an early tank or too if you have a hard time holding all ins) you set yourself up for a nice macro game.
|
On May 31 2013 08:58 snaga90 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2013 08:14 policymaker wrote:
Hi all, high diamond here,
Previous season my TVZ used to be my best matchup. Zerg seem to have figured out hots a bit better right now and its currently a rather weird mu for me, mutalisks either keep me in base or roach hydra kills my usual midgame advantage. If I dont kill his 3rd with some kind of 12ish push, I feel outright helpless. I like dropping a lot, but good overlord spread and a couple of spines keep countering my drops. Cam some1 recommend me a strong mid game transition/composition opting for a macro advantage in the next five minutes so I kill him off? thanx in advance It's hard to give advice without a replay but I will try to help you. I'm 1200 point Masters with a 50% TvT and TvP winrate and a 80% TvZ winrate. It's hard to lose the matchup if you are vs a player of similar skill and you have good multitask/speed. Bio/mine is the most solid composition. The 'transition' towards the end of mid game comes from adding maradaurs to your composition to deal with ultras, though with Innovation's style (most recent game he played vs Soulkey in PL) if you simply keep up the aggression for the game's entirety he will never be able to afford an ultra transition because of the constant need of banelings/mutas. Also, OL's seeing your drops aren't a big deal, because you should never be dropping without doing something else. If you are pushing and clearing creep in the center with bio/mine, and have multiple dropships on the map even if he sees them its hard to react in time. And even then, it's hard to be cost effective while cleaning them up and if he sends his whole army to kill a drop, even if the drop doesn't kill a single unit, it gives you time to make plays elsewhere on the map with your main army. Your goal is simply to be cost effective, which is very hard not to do with a good widow mine count and decent splitting, and force the zerg to make mistakes. (not game ending mistakes, but like missing an inject because he's dealing with 2 drops, or leaving 5 drones on gas. Little things that add up over time while you wear him down) "Macro advantage" in the early game should never be your goal, as it means you're too reliant on a coinflip build. With standard 14 cc, or reaper, cc cc (you can build an early tank or too if you have a hard time holding all ins) you set yourself up for a nice macro game.
I'm a 1.05k masters player, and, generally, I disagree that it's "hard to lose the matchup if you are vs a player of similar skill." It's a completely untrue statement. The matchup goes to the player who plays better, simple as that. If you attack with bio/mine, sure its easy to pummel a player who a-moves ling bane constantly, but if he is smart and splits his lings, drawing mine splash into bio, its very hard for the terran as well. Versus players who build spores in key locations, you will need to spend apm making sure your drops don't die to them, costing valuable attention from your push. In addition, getting caught without 4+ tech lab rax vs an ultra switch is basically gg, as marines are complete trash vs them. What you said about the zerg not being able to transition to ultras eventually if you keep the aggression up is completely false. If they establish a fourth, which, on many maps, isn't too difficult, cutting down on muta production past 20 will leave enough gas for banelings to stay alive and ultra/infestor/viper, the combination of which is impossible to beat with marine/marauder/medivac mine if the zerg controls well. The TvZ matchup is one of the most skill-based and balanced matchups in the game, you're high winrate attests solely to your skill and does not imply any general trend.
|
Hi. I'm a high Diamond Terran. I want to progress to masters and eventually to pro level play (as long as it takes) I've been dying pretty consistently to all match-ups using solid builds.
Using ForGG's mass hellion build, I've been massacred with CS/Stimmed marines and a higher tank count then ForGG's build allocates for me.
http://drop.sc/339235
In accordance to the build, I don't scout the opponent to collect as much minerals as possible. I see his tank/marine squad and I turtle up in anticipation for it.
I believe I have something wrong going in the build, how does ForGG make mass hellions and goes 43-3 and doesn't die to critical tanks with BFH and +1 attack in an engagement?
Also, I have a pretty secure TvZ build that I have been working on the past few hundred games where i wall off and get early +1 upgrades + WM for a ten minute push outside the opponents main base. I've just recently started doing more drop work than usual but things get a lot difficult when I hit around the 12-13 minute mark when I have to macro and simcity and spend my floating +1k and my bio is getting engaged by ling/banes, and when mutas hit critical mass. GG
Why does it pretty much mean GG when mutas approach critical mass?
Thors are too wonky and they sometimes get locked inside your base.
Widow mines are extremely coinflippy, especially after watching ForGG kill himself to mines.
I believe it's of these games where I drop and destroy two evo chambers and delay +2 upgrades, but a minute later I drop the same undefended base with exposed evo chambers but opt to kill workers or tech instead of killing upgrades
I think I need to start utilizing tank ravens more often. For PDD and Siege mode in certain instances to combat muta aggression and ultra advances respectively.
http://drop.sc/339238
http://drop.sc/339239
Thanks.
|
forgg Hellion play is from what i see strongly timing based. it is very strong , because it hits right before the whole factory stuff gets out. and a really big number of Hellions (Forgg builds 1 reactor factory, + adds 2 naked factories if he scouts that the opponent is playing greedy (greedy tech like hellbat drop, banshee, or greedy opener with triple cc double ebay), and masses hellions to do a timing push that hits right before the hellbating / bansheing t gets his additional factories up, but he does it as a response to scouting). He proceeds normal macro play if the opponent builds 3+ siegetanks from first factory with defensive posture, but waits for hellion runbuys as soon as the opponent moves out, and against bio: forgg nows exactly how many hellions he needs to oneshot bunkers + all repairing scvs behind.
Against zerg-heavy mutaplay, just mass up thors. The zergs spends all his gas into mutas, and the t is forced to spend all your gas into thors, and turtle up, until u have a critical ammount (2 rounds of thor production to 8, or so, before starting the engagement, accompanied by hellbats to guard thors from lings). If u have gas to add some raven, its nice too. Heavy mutaplay is pretty much guaranteed to be default loose against mech, and only a very fast unscouted 2-base muta play might be dangerous. A potential Ultralisk followup is not very scary, as thors hold themselves pretty well against ultralisk, especially on defensive positons and hellbats blocking. Unsieged tanks also do pretty well against ultralisk forces.
As iBio-Terran, upgraded marines just rape heavy mutalisk play, its so costeffective, that the zerg has a very big pay day in ever single battle with his mutalisks.
.
Best showcase for how bad mass muta vs mech works, is dimaga vs mvp in wcs europe semifinals, map 2.
Mutaswitch, 40 mutas, no antiair up, 5 factories start thor production, mutas are useless 2 minutes after they have been made, 4 k gas wasted, as a followup, any amount of ultralisk are wasted too due to amount of thors on the field.In wol heavy thor play was extremely weak to mass ling production, but hellbats have changed this to a large degree.
|
How do you stop a Terran that goes mass Banshees into mass Battlecruisers and proceeds to GG roll you 15 minutes into the game? I scouted his dual Starports so I expected mass Banshees, which I was right about. Then 5 minutes after his attack hits, he got his mass BCs.
Also I just lost to proxy Oracles again. What should I be looking for when I go for a Reaper or SCV scout? I tend to go Reapers because they're quick and regen health, just like all the pros, but I feel like Reaper opening = automatic loss if Protoss go Oracles. I watched the replay and so far I can think of the following when I scout: Count Pylons. Look at amount of gas geysers and Chronoboost energy. But specifically what am I supposed to look for? Is there a general time of when Protoss should have X pylons and Y gas? I know a fast Nexus comes at around 5 minutes, if they decide to get a Stalker out. Not too sure if that includes getting a Zealot too.
To face and win against a Zerg who is going quick Hive and skipping Mutas, defending only with Speedling-Baneling, how can you win when your splits are not as good as Innovation? I tend to try and pre-split, then as they clump together, I just randomly try and split again to the best that I can.
|
On May 31 2013 14:37 geokilla wrote:
How do you stop a Terran that goes mass Banshees into mass Battlecruisers and proceeds to GG roll you 15 minutes into the game? I scouted his dual Starports so I expected mass Banshees, which I was right about. Then 5 minutes after his attack hits, he got his mass BCs.
Also I just lost to proxy Oracles again. What should I be looking for when I go for a Reaper or SCV scout? I tend to go Reapers because they're quick and regen health, just like all the pros, but I feel like Reaper opening = automatic loss if Protoss go Oracles. I watched the replay and so far I can think of the following when I scout: Count Pylons. Look at amount of gas geysers and Chronoboost energy. But specifically what am I supposed to look for? Is there a general time of when Protoss should have X pylons and Y gas? I know a fast Nexus comes at around 5 minutes, if they decide to get a Stalker out. Not too sure if that includes getting a Zealot too.
To face and win against a Zerg who is going quick Hive and skipping Mutas, defending only with Speedling-Baneling, how can you win when your splits are not as good as Innovation? I tend to try and pre-split, then as they clump together, I just randomly try and split again to the best that I can.
Vikings counter both of those, and vikings can semi-kite battlecruisers. He shouldn't be ABLE to go into MASS BC unless he's on like 4-5 bases, which he can't survive to after a failed mass banshee opening. Raven-Viking composition owns all of that. For viking kiting, u attack, then kite away, and attack again. You can hit H for the hold position kite to stop and fire, or do the move - attack click - move method, whatever suits you best. A few vikings will handle BC's nicely if the BC count is still low enough to where they can't yamato most of your vikings out of the sky. The ravens can even help with PDD or HSM.
Vs oracle play, you're looking for that 3rd pylon in the protoss base that usually goes down around 4 minutes (I think). You can check up on that pylon timing in other threads, but you're trying to see if there's a missing pylon to indicate proxy tech. Either way, if u see two early gasses, and don't manage to scout what tech he's going, you have no choice but to build adequate defense (either enough rines, turret at mineral line, or mines) to hold oracles or whatever other thing he might be doing. Without more scouting (if the nexus isn't started by abt 5 minutes, expect an all-in coming your way, like proxy oracle, blink, 3gate robo, dt, 3gate vr, who knows, etc.), you kind of have to build stuff to be able to hold everything that can possibly be coming. The upside is that if the nexus isn't down, you're not getting behind by teching and playing super defensively.
If zerg skips mutas, drop him everywhere non-stop. Pickup before banelings connect, drop somewhere else, repeat. There's a reason why pros dont skip mutas on their way to hive.
|
Hi, when going for a reactor/expo/factory/starport into 3rax in TvP, against a stargate into robo build with phoenix/colossus, when should I add a second starport ?
|
On May 31 2013 14:37 geokilla wrote:
Also I just lost to proxy Oracles again. What should I be looking for when I go for a Reaper or SCV scout? I tend to go Reapers because they're quick and regen health, just like all the pros, but I feel like Reaper opening = automatic loss if Protoss go Oracles. I watched the replay and so far I can think of the following when I scout: Count Pylons. Look at amount of gas geysers and Chronoboost energy. But specifically what am I supposed to look for? Is there a general time of when Protoss should have X pylons and Y gas? I know a fast Nexus comes at around 5 minutes, if they decide to get a Stalker out. Not too sure if that includes getting a Zealot too.
To face and win against a Zerg who is going quick Hive and skipping Mutas, defending only with Speedling-Baneling, how can you win when your splits are not as good as Innovation? I tend to try and pre-split, then as they clump together, I just randomly try and split again to the best that I can.
There should be a third pylon making as the stalker is coming out or making, not to sure on that one though.
I played countless games of that marine splitting arcade game and eventually I got pretty good at it. So I recommend playing that a bit and if you can do level 6 or 7 then you're trading cost efficiently and that's all you really need to do 
|
Hello, what is the best way to break enemy tank lines in a TvT? Are nukes a viable option?
|
On May 31 2013 20:13 isaachukfan wrote:
Hello, what is the best way to break enemy tank lines in a TvT? Are nukes a viable option?
Nukes if it's super late game, Banshees, BC Yamato Cannon, Drops(disperse his forces).
I really think Yamato is underused in TvT. Anytime I see a mech terran turtling I break out the BC/Yamato. I don't go overboard but 4-6 BC's are enough to wear a tank line to the point where you can take it down by other means.
If he's turtled on 2/3 bases & refuses to move out if it's early you can just expand & bank. When you have enough saved & the production to back it, trade
|
On May 31 2013 11:22 Nicekidnice wrote:Hi. I'm a high Diamond Terran. I want to progress to masters and eventually to pro level play (as long as it takes) I've been dying pretty consistently to all match-ups using solid builds. Using ForGG's mass hellion build, I've been massacred with CS/Stimmed marines and a higher tank count then ForGG's build allocates for me. http://drop.sc/339235In accordance to the build, I don't scout the opponent to collect as much minerals as possible. I see his tank/marine squad and I turtle up in anticipation for it. I believe I have something wrong going in the build, how does ForGG make mass hellions and goes 43-3 and doesn't die to critical tanks with BFH and +1 attack in an engagement?
Ur build is close but its not forgg build, read more here. I will explain below.
1. He tries to drop your main once, u overreacted and start mass building turrets, more then 10 for sure. This delays your 3rd, your gasincome, more productionfacilities (factories) and your supply alot. Dont overreact with turrets!
2. U didnt harras him or took mapcontrol once. Forgg is allways keeping his opponent in his base and not the other way around (i.e. 7 minute drop + runbuy with hellions or the elevatorhellion approach).
3. U take your expo a bit late.
4. When u saw the banshee, just let them raven and a viking deal with it and go harras with your hellions/medivac/marines
5. Produce vikings constantly.
6. Final battle.
![[image loading]](http://s24.postimg.org/4lfay7qad/forgg_wrong.gif)
Your engagement was not the best. Your not playing a marinetank composition which means u have to engage differently. Your hellion army A-moved against an army that was on highground:
a. your hellions cant reach there troops to do maximum of AoE;
b. A-move command is bad with hellions against marines+sieged tanks to do maximum of AoE. Wiggle the hellions in between the sieged tanks and marines. The AoE of your BFH+there tanks is enought to kill allmost everything;
c. Take an engagement in the open field, where your hellions can wiggle between there sieged tanks+marines. There own sieged tanks+your BFH will destroy most there army leaving u with the higher tankcount if had macro-ed a little bit better.
If u look at forgg's engagements more closely its the discissionmaking of how, where and when to engage that gives him his awesome winrate. Look at the vods in the link above, u will notice the difference between your reactions (mass turrets) and how forgg reacts to an early drop, also look at the difference how u engage and forgg engages (howto engage with hellions and when he sieges or not). Dont forget mass turrets isnt needed : Maybe 1 turret early per mineralline if u are getting hellbatdropped/Wm dropped, else dont see the need for more because u are constantly producing vikings (antiair) and have a raven for the minedetection right?
I hope this helps u a bit. Goodluck!
|
On May 31 2013 20:13 isaachukfan wrote:
Hello, what is the best way to break enemy tank lines in a TvT? Are nukes a viable option?
Get hellbats, a-move, possibly with medivac dropping hellbats on enemy tanks. Hellbats soak up so much tank fire.
And besides the already mentioned options there is also the raven + seeker missiles option.
|
What's the best way to defend hellbat drops throughout the early to mid to late game? Also, is there a reliable way to scout it in the early game?
|
On June 01 2013 10:32 halpimcat wrote:
What's the best way to defend hellbat drops throughout the early to mid to late game? Also, is there a reliable way to scout it in the early game?
If you can see a reactored factory and a reactored starport than it will most likely be hellbat drops.
The really isn't a 100% way to defend hellbat drops. Try to have vision of your entire base allowing you more time to react to the drops.
If you have hellions you should be able to kite his hellbats easily
having a turret in the mineral line will make it a one way trip if he does do the drop
I have seen other players build a bunker near the mineral line missing with the AI
|
Please, (high master), how do I deal with Mutas into mass Swarmhosts when going mech? I need to get Thors for Mutas (about 4 I would say), then obviously Tanks to hold position. But how do I ever kill the hosts? Getting Ravens off 3 Base turned out really badly since I dont have enough gas to support that and a ground army, also he can snipe them easily with mutas. I am considering 3 possibilites: 1) Banshees with the Thors, 2) Hellbat drops in his bases and on top of hosts and pray his mutas dont snipe it, 3) Mines running on top of hosts or dropping them on them. Also lets say it is Neo Planet S, how do I ever get a 4th base if I have to sit and defend my third and mutas are flying around? Thanks!
|
On June 01 2013 16:53 Aquila- wrote:
Please, (high master), how do I deal with Mutas into mass Swarmhosts when going mech? I need to get Thors for Mutas (about 4 I would say), then obviously Tanks to hold position. But how do I ever kill the hosts? Getting Ravens off 3 Base turned out really badly since I dont have enough gas to support that and a ground army, also he can snipe them easily with mutas. I am considering 3 possibilites: 1) Banshees with the Thors, 2) Hellbat drops in his bases and on top of hosts and pray his mutas dont snipe it, 3) Mines running on top of hosts or dropping them on them. Also lets say it is Neo Planet S, how do I ever get a 4th base if I have to sit and defend my third and mutas are flying around? Thanks!
Heya. I'm a high master zerg, and honestly I'd say mech overall is almost a free win for me in zvt. I think I have like a 90% winrate vs mech. Swarmhosts and vipers are just so incredibly good.
What you could try is to boost a couple of medivacs with hellbats in them and drop on top of the swarmhosts (works a lot better than mines) and scan. This only works if his roach/hydra army isn't nearby the hosts though. So you'll have to occupy that part of the army by doing drops on bases or feigning a push or something.
|
On June 01 2013 19:48 Henk wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2013 16:53 Aquila- wrote:
Please, (high master), how do I deal with Mutas into mass Swarmhosts when going mech? I need to get Thors for Mutas (about 4 I would say), then obviously Tanks to hold position. But how do I ever kill the hosts? Getting Ravens off 3 Base turned out really badly since I dont have enough gas to support that and a ground army, also he can snipe them easily with mutas. I am considering 3 possibilites: 1) Banshees with the Thors, 2) Hellbat drops in his bases and on top of hosts and pray his mutas dont snipe it, 3) Mines running on top of hosts or dropping them on them. Also lets say it is Neo Planet S, how do I ever get a 4th base if I have to sit and defend my third and mutas are flying around? Thanks! Heya. I'm a high master zerg, and honestly I'd say mech overall is almost a free win for me in zvt. I think I have like a 90% winrate vs mech. Swarmhosts and vipers are just so incredibly good. What you could try is to boost a couple of medivacs with hellbats in them and drop on top of the swarmhosts (works a lot better than mines) and scan. This only works if his roach/hydra army isn't nearby the hosts though. So you'll have to occupy that part of the army by doing drops on bases or feigning a push or something.
Thanks, I should get medivacs anyway for healing and mobility. I also have to try out if enough hellbats and medivacs can outheal the locusts but I dont think they will^^
|
What is the best way to spam mules? Right now I use 5e,5e,5e,5e,5e... but I feel like I should be able to just hold the e button down is there an option I have to activate for this?
|
On June 02 2013 01:35 NadaSound wrote:
What is the best way to spam mules? Right now I use 5e,5e,5e,5e,5e... but I feel like I should be able to just hold the e button down is there an option I have to activate for this?
Ummm can't you just press 'e'? O_o
|
On June 02 2013 01:35 NadaSound wrote:
What is the best way to spam mules? Right now I use 5e,5e,5e,5e,5e... but I feel like I should be able to just hold the e button down is there an option I have to activate for this?
i use e and spam mousebutton.. so i can rally them to different mineralpatches.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
