EPTI don’t see how I can defend against a possible strong ground push and an air push.
Any advice would be much appreciated.
Thanks.
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Edpayasugo
United Kingdom2216 Posts
I don’t see how I can defend against a possible strong ground push and an air push. Any advice would be much appreciated. Thanks. | ||
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gh0st
United States98 Posts
a) He techs straight to storm off 2 base. (I think he can have it ready just before 10-11 minute medivac timing). b) He makes 1 colossus without range into storm. (I'm really not sure what this timing is). c) He make 3-4 colossus into storm.. (I doubt there is a firm benchmark timing but I'm thinking sometime around 16 minutes gametime... is that wildly off?) Thank you for the help. I want to hit the window right before storm for situations b and c above, but not entirely sure when that is. | ||
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geokilla
Canada8244 Posts
Ok this is pretty bad. Every single Protoss I lose to today, it's all to 4 Gate Blink Stalkers. | ||
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CircusCL
United States2 Posts
I am opening 12 Rax/12 Gas with a quick Command Center. I prefer to play bio vs mech or Marine/Tank vs bio or Marine/Tank. It goes like this. I scout with my Reaper and see an early Factory and/or Starport. If I see add-ons it's one thing, but sometimes I don't get a chance to see. When I see a quick 1-1-1, I think either Banshee, Siege push, or Hellbat/Mine drop. Assuming I don't see the add ons, what do I do? The Banshees come a little bit later so if I see no Tank at ~6 I immediately get Ebay and save a scan. But it's when they Tank push or Hellbat drop that messes me up. How do I defend this? I basically always have a Reactored Barracks, but I have been playing around with a fast second Rax + Tech Lab for a Marauder or a quick Factory for a fast Tank. In my opinion the fast Marauder is better because if they do a quick Tank push, a small worker pull + 4-6 Marines + Marauder will annihilate it. But from my testing it seems like Marines are better vs Hellbats in small numbers. Two Hellbats beat one Tank (with no micro). So do you guys recommend a fast Marauder if I sense an early attack? Or should I just 1-1-1 expand and build a Viking and Hellions? | ||
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govie
9334 Posts
On May 28 2013 01:06 Edpayasugo wrote: Hi Guys, I’m having trouble against Protoss. I am trying to go early Reaper into Hell bat drops, but I don’t know how I can prepare for whatever P is going to throw at me. I just lose to a 4gate which I was completely unprepared for, if I had tried to Rax and bunker up I might have defend it ok, but if instead he had gone for an Oracle/Mothership core push then he would have simply manoeuvred around my bunkers and hit my mineral line straight. I don’t see how I can defend against a possible strong ground push and an air push. Any advice would be much appreciated. Thanks. Read Original Post TvP section. The volunteers have put alot of effort into it and its really good. Also scout, if ya dont know... defeat! | ||
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rice_devOurer
United States773 Posts
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fezvez
France3021 Posts
On May 28 2013 13:44 rice_devOurer wrote: is hellbat-viking a viable composition?(vs Protoss) Just this? Unfortunately, no. So many things counter it. If the protoss doesn't see it, he may be surprised and lose all his zealots. But stalkers can just kite you all day. Archons and storms are extremely good also. I would say immortals too can kite, but there are never much immortals in PvT except if you show lots of tanks and thors. Just a few sentries can block your whole ground army. Hellbats are slow, and the MC can slow your whole ground army to a crawl. If you want to go hellbat-vikings, mix in medivacs and marauders (with stim and concussive shells). Anyway, you would have an excess of gas with such a build. | ||
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Marathi
298 Posts
On May 28 2013 01:06 Edpayasugo wrote: Hi Guys, I’m having trouble against Protoss. I am trying to go early Reaper into Hell bat drops, but I don’t know how I can prepare for whatever P is going to throw at me. I just lose to a 4gate which I was completely unprepared for, if I had tried to Rax and bunker up I might have defend it ok, but if instead he had gone for an Oracle/Mothership core push then he would have simply manoeuvred around my bunkers and hit my mineral line straight. I don’t see how I can defend against a possible strong ground push and an air push. Any advice would be much appreciated. Thanks. I think reactor expand is one of the safest openers in TvP (in the OP) you should have enough marines to deal with most/all oracle timings. Keep 6 in your main mineral line until you get turrets up or you are sure he's not going oracles. If he is going blink you will need a bunker at your natural choke and on the high ground where he is likely to blink, but not near the edge so he can snipe it with high ground vision. 4g is easy to hold when you know its coming, check his expo, check for forward pylons, keep a marine out in front of your ramp for an alarm, get watchtowers, etc. | ||
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ThePianoDentist
United Kingdom698 Posts
if my hellions scout some kind of roach bust, or roach baneling all-in. should i stick to the plan of making hellbats ...or make widow mines instead? (obviously i build more bunkers and keep making marauders but im just not sure how to best utilise my factory to help hold this with minimal damage) | ||
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geokilla
Canada8244 Posts
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Thor.Rush
Sweden702 Posts
On May 29 2013 03:22 ThePianoDentist wrote: in tvz, going for early hellbat drops after cc first (like in many mvp games at wcs europe finals)... if my hellions scout some kind of roach bust, or roach baneling all-in. should i stick to the plan of making hellbats ...or make widow mines instead? (obviously i build more bunkers and keep making marauders but im just not sure how to best utilise my factory to help hold this with minimal damage) I would rather make mines, but I've seen pros continue with hellbat production. The main thing is having marauders + bunkers like you said. On May 29 2013 05:31 geokilla wrote: Looks like beating 4 Gate Blink Stalkers is impossible... I just did what is the perfect hold and he just rolled over me. So you had a sieged tank (and continuing to make more), bunker at ramp with scvs on auto repair + bunker where he can blink to main surrounded with scvs on auto repair. And you also repaired tank fast enough when the toss targeted it after failing to take down the bunker...and you still lost? brb calling blizzard. | ||
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govie
9334 Posts
On May 29 2013 05:31 geokilla wrote: Looks like beating 4 Gate Blink Stalkers is impossible... I just did what is the perfect hold and he just rolled over me. replay? | ||
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geokilla
Canada8244 Posts
Too many to list and upload.. See back a couple posts. All usually the same scenario >.> | ||
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Jazzman88
Canada2228 Posts
On May 29 2013 06:17 geokilla wrote: Too many to list and upload.. See back a couple posts. All usually the same scenario >.> We need to see a replay to tell you where it could be improved. If you lose to it every time, it's not a 'perfect hold', because people like Taeja and Innovation regularly curbstomp Protoss all-ins such as Blink/Oracle/DT, and it's not always perfect in their hands either. 4-Gate Blinkstalkers correct hold has been described above with the proper placement of Bunkers and Tanks and auto-repair SCVs, plus correct targeted repair when the attack happens. Unless we have a replay to verify that all of those things happened correctly as described, we can't say for sure why you keep dying to it. | ||
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mothergoose729
United States666 Posts
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Jazzman88
Canada2228 Posts
On May 29 2013 09:08 mothergoose729 wrote: In tvt marine tank vs marine tank, I often have a problem where as I attempt to attack my opponent and deny them baseses, I end up in awkward base trade scenarios because they just counter my main. If you feel like you have more units than your opponent and you want to be aggressive, how do you do this without ending up in awkward base trade scenarios? More generally, where are some good techniques for keeping track of your opponents army as you are out in the map? Thanks .Something I see many pro players do is minimap click to send their army in one direction, deselect 1 Marine, re-hotkey remaining army, repeat for the other direction, then head to mid (or wherever their position of choice is). This allows you to send out sort of 'Marine outriggers' to keep an eye for sneaky army movements along alternate attack paths. In addition, the Sensor Tower is a critically underused building in many TvTs, as you can use smart placement to give you such an enourmous lead time on preparing for incoming drops that it sometimes prevents drops from going down at all. In addition, if you know that your opponent's army was moving (i.e. your last Scan saw it shifting about), always Scan ahead of where you're positioning to avoid walking into Tank fire. The techniques of splitting off Marines, Sensor Towers, and scanning ahead are all very general techniques that are just as helpful in TvP as TvT (TvZ you should be the heavy aggressor in the later midgame, so there's less of a base trade worry and more of a 'make sure you don't lose Mines stupidly' worry). | ||
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SHODAN
United Kingdom1144 Posts
On May 26 2013 09:32 TheDwf wrote: Personally, after Reaper expand I play a quick EB and 3 rax Medivacs, then going for a ~9'30 Armory and second EB before a 3 rax third, which allows me to have 2/2 at 13'45. I don't understand, why do they build their Robotics Bay this late? Even if they have to concede some defensive measures against your 1-1-1 pressure, it sounds needlessly late. But maybe it's just an impression. Or is it single Colossus without range into Storm? How many Colossi do they play afterwards before Templar tech? I didn't see the games in which sC and GuMiho built a Raven. You mean you swap the factory on the reactor for Hellions after you send your drop, and get a Raven before your bio transition? If you delay your bio transition this way, it really has to pay off in terms of Probes kills. You probably have troubles because your 1-1-1 phase likely lasts too long compared to the results it yields (i. e. in the end, you slow down your development more than his). 200 gas is a huge deal at this time since you have to get bio tech, Medivacs and +1, and a later stim + Medivac push indeed allows him to take his third earlier uncontested, which is not good at all with his early forge. When I play Reaper expand into 1-1-1, I go the standard rax rax lab lab EB gas bio transition directly afterwards (unless I want to head for a 2-bases bio/Tanks push of course). Maybe the best way to play behind your heavier harass is simply to go third + dual EB before powering +4 rax and bio tech, the way Hellions/Banshees builds vs P were played by LucifroN or GuMiho in the last weeks of WoL, but you really have to make sure Protoss is pinned at home without any way to just kill you while you build your bio infrastructure (which should be OK though given their build). For Bogus' guide, I don't know. many thanks for this, TheDwf. 2 colossus with range before taking a third base. from there they go into zealot legs, templar tech, and 3-4 additional cannons in the main & third. they move out at 3-3 with a handful of templar, about 2-3 archons, colossus production resumes back at home and they attack with a massive gateway army. If I have enough ghosts to defend my third, they will just soft contain and take a fourth (game over). I tried the standard rax/rax/lab/lab/EB and I'm having a much better time vs. the late gateways. I might have read this wrong, but when you said "~9'30 Armory and second EB before a 3 rax third", is that an armory before a third command center? quick 2-1 upgrades? Gumiho built a raven/viking squad in his first set vs. Rain in the ro32 (http://www.gomtv.net/2013wcs1/vod/72029/?set=7). sC built a raven in sets 1 & 2 vs. Stats in the special "code B" up & down tournament (the VOD disappeared from the eSF twitch channel). Maru played a raven vs. Ruin in yesterday's up & downs, using PDD to bypass stalker defenses and block photon overcharge. | ||
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geokilla
Canada8244 Posts
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Ruined Gamer
United States36 Posts
I'm playing all three races recently (woo level 90!) but TvP is by far my worst match-up, worse than my ZvZ actually. I just can't beat protoss late game. I used to do siege tanks - widow mine pressure but it was just too weak. Should I go 11/11 rax pull all SCVs or try for the late game? | ||
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padfoota
Taiwan1571 Posts
On May 29 2013 15:13 geokilla wrote: How are you supposed to efficiently control your Ghosts + MMM + Vikings over 3 hotkeys? Just trying to emp them is impossible to do. As I try to EMP with 16 Ghosts, I cause my whole army to commit suicide instead. This time, there was no Ghosts in my MMM hotkey, but still got rolled over as I tried to launch EMPs. And yes, they were split over 3 hotkeys as they should be. Stay calm when controlling them. Do not panic. Step 1. Scan for opponent army positioning + composition. Step 2. Get own army into respective positioning. Step 3. Repeat 1 and 2 until ideal. Step 4. Play accordingly. Abuse what ever holes his current composition and positioning has. Too balled up? Either scan and snipe the obs then bring in the blanket emp, or just blanket emp and run everything in. Spread out? Poke around with the vikings and ghosts and test multiple angles. The key here is to never stim too early. Its actually ok to stim a bit late, but stimming too early not only allowed the protoss to back off, essentially getting free heavy damage on your entire army, but even if he doesnt back off theres a chance you still have to stim again. You want to stim as little as possible. Late game TvP with bio is about being as delicate as possible, and not brute forcing it like we usually do vs zerg, and early-mid game vs protoss. The main thing I hate about the TvP bio late game is that the whole mindset is suddenly changed. In TvZ it was pressure pressure trade trade into a much grander scale, but remaining relatively the same. In TvP after a certain mark suddenly the roles are flipped and you are forced to become the protoss while the protoss can just brute force through. Personally I feel its rather unhealthy. On May 29 2013 16:01 Ruined Gamer wrote: Are there any good all-ins for TvP? I'm playing all three races recently (woo level 90!) but TvP is by far my worst match-up, worse than my ZvZ actually. I just can't beat protoss late game. I used to do siege tanks - widow mine pressure but it was just too weak. Should I go 11/11 rax pull all SCVs or try for the late game? 14 minute mark scv pull before storm with bio viking is still reliable. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=413803 This thread needs some love too | ||
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