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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
So I picked up the game again these last few days after a ~6months break (so before HotS release), I don't really have troubles in one particular matchup right now, but I have a few questions:
-TvP, is there an actual use for the new units (mines/hellbats) in this matchup? I'm making like 2 mines for early game defense, but beside that i'm playing exacly like in WoL. Is it worth it using my factory to mix in a few Hellbats against Zealot heavy play?
-TvZ, when playing 4M, how do you deal with infestors? do you switch back to tank production or do you keep making mines? In WoL, tanks could zone out infestors due to range but mines don't have that advantage and i'm just getting fungaled to death (maybe is it just a crappy micro issue ? :>)
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On May 13 2013 15:23 heartagram wrote:
Ok, how the hell do you hold the new 5:10 oracle timing?
I went reaper into reactor cc rax, and the oracle was in my mineral line right as my first 2 marines popped. My reaper scouted a gateway that made a zealot and a stalker and 2 gas. Should I count the amount of gas mined?
I put a huge hole in my wall because the build seems insanely stupid. With my build I get an engi bay blindly at 4:30, and that wasn't nearly fast enough, even though I thought it was the safest thing I could do. he walked a zealot and stalker across the map too, and I don't even have enough marines to deal with the oracles.
Is my build completely obsolete from this? are widow mine builds necessary now?
It is completely true that an oracle hits the base around 5min mark and would eventually harass the mineral line. If going for reaper into reactor barrakcs + factory, around the WM is still like 30 to 45%, widow mine is already harassing.
I would rather suggest to scout and dont swap the factory to the reactor, just constantly making marines and widow for defense till we get a turret up.. i guess lol.
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On May 13 2013 18:59 BobMcJohnson wrote:
So I picked up the game again these last few days after a ~6months break (so before HotS release), I don't really have troubles in one particular matchup right now, but I have a few questions:
-TvP, is there an actual use for the new units (mines/hellbats) in this matchup? I'm making like 2 mines for early game defense, but beside that i'm playing exacly like in WoL. Is it worth it using my factory to mix in a few Hellbats against Zealot heavy play?
-TvZ, when playing 4M, how do you deal with infestors? do you switch back to tank production or do you keep making mines? In WoL, tanks could zone out infestors due to range but mines don't have that advantage and i'm just getting fungaled to death (maybe is it just a crappy micro issue ? :>)
-TvP mixing in hellbats(possibly upgrading armor instead of air wpn) is a great way to add a bit more staying power in your army. Especially if toss isn't going colossi. They aren't a must, but I atleast feel that having that those 2 hellbats are going to be worth more than 4x rines. Just make sure not to overmake them. I'd say like 20 supply max. Also remember if you are going to retreat you want to fight until your hellbats are dead, since you can't really pick them up nor run away with them.
-TvZ what I've seen people just split against infestors and/or snipe infestors with rauders. If you keep like 4 rauders infront of your army that means that either the infestors are in range of the rauders or you have decent enough time splitting your army before the FGs land. Other than that people just drop the shit out of zergs who open infestor.
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On May 13 2013 18:59 BobMcJohnson wrote:
So I picked up the game again these last few days after a ~6months break (so before HotS release), I don't really have troubles in one particular matchup right now, but I have a few questions:
-TvP, is there an actual use for the new units (mines/hellbats) in this matchup? I'm making like 2 mines for early game defense, but beside that i'm playing exacly like in WoL. Is it worth it using my factory to mix in a few Hellbats against Zealot heavy play?
-TvZ, when playing 4M, how do you deal with infestors? do you switch back to tank production or do you keep making mines? In WoL, tanks could zone out infestors due to range but mines don't have that advantage and i'm just getting fungaled to death (maybe is it just a crappy micro issue ? :>)
I'm only diamond but I think I can help you a little bit :
TvP : Mines are often used for early defense (oracle/stalker pressure). Hellbats are used against zealot heavy play (I add hellbats to my army when I the protoss is going templar first.)
TvZ : Pre-split your army and stim a little squad of marauder, use this squad to focus fire infestors while the rest of your army is dealing with the others zerg units. If you have problems dodging fungals, get alot of medivac (I think around 13-14 is enough) so the fungal doesn't do much damage.
GL!
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On May 13 2013 15:23 heartagram wrote:
Ok, how the hell do you hold the new 5:10 oracle timing?
I went reaper into reactor cc rax, and the oracle was in my mineral line right as my first 2 marines popped. My reaper scouted a gateway that made a zealot and a stalker and 2 gas. Should I count the amount of gas mined?
I put a huge hole in my wall because the build seems insanely stupid. With my build I get an engi bay blindly at 4:30
That's too late, if your SCV scouts lack of second Pylon in his base you have to build it at 4'20 (or even 4'15) so the Turret is ready at 5'20 (5'15). Bunker highground to deal with any poke and shield your Marines.
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So assuming I read the OP correctly:
TvZ
Proxy 11/11 (or 11/12, or 12/12) with at least 3 SCVs pulled. Flash vs Life, Newkirk City, MLG; Last vs Stephano, Cloud Kingdom, MLG.
Proxy Reapers (11r 11g or 12r 12g) into fact CC CC or CC fact CC. Mvp vs Stephano, Akilon Wastes, IEM [starts at 0:19:36]; Last vs Life, Akilon Wastes, MLG.
Since these are recommended openers I assume they aren't really cheese if by my definition cheeses depend on your opponent reacting poorly or not scouting? If my Z opponent reacts properly I'm not terribly behind with any sort of 11 or later proxy rax?
And regarding 11/11 marines, what is the purpose of pulling SCVs? And can I do a 11/11 or 11reaper on a 4p map or would it be entirely dependent on scouting him first/second? And with a 11/11 if I kill the natural and the Z overbuilds units / spines to defend, i'm perfectly fine to go home and defend behind ccs+helions right?
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On May 13 2013 18:59 BobMcJohnson wrote:
So I picked up the game again these last few days after a ~6months break (so before HotS release), I don't really have troubles in one particular matchup right now, but I have a few questions:
-TvP, is there an actual use for the new units (mines/hellbats) in this matchup? I'm making like 2 mines for early game defense, but beside that i'm playing exacly like in WoL. Is it worth it using my factory to mix in a few Hellbats against Zealot heavy play?
-TvZ, when playing 4M, how do you deal with infestors? do you switch back to tank production or do you keep making mines? In WoL, tanks could zone out infestors due to range but mines don't have that advantage and i'm just getting fungaled to death (maybe is it just a crappy micro issue ? :>)
TvP, with bio builds you usually don't get any mines. Turrets and bio are enough to defend. Alternatively, if you open 1-1-1 then mines are the factory unit you want to get, both for defense and dropping them. Hellbats are okay against mass zealots, but not required. They have the big drawback that you will be limited severely in kiting/retreating as well as the overall mobility of your army.
TvZ, most people just try to split vs infestors. A common style is also to start dropping around 12-13m and never stop, while avoiding any big engagement basically forever. If you play like that, there is no room to make really good fungals.
On May 14 2013 07:26 S7EFEN wrote:
So assuming I read the OP correctly:
TvZ
Proxy 11/11 (or 11/12, or 12/12) with at least 3 SCVs pulled. Flash vs Life, Newkirk City, MLG; Last vs Stephano, Cloud Kingdom, MLG.
Proxy Reapers (11r 11g or 12r 12g) into fact CC CC or CC fact CC. Mvp vs Stephano, Akilon Wastes, IEM [starts at 0:19:36]; Last vs Life, Akilon Wastes, MLG.
Since these are recommended openers I assume they aren't really cheese if by my definition cheeses depend on your opponent reacting poorly or not scouting? If my Z opponent reacts properly I'm not terribly behind with any sort of 11 or later proxy rax?
And regarding 11/11 marines, what is the purpose of pulling SCVs? And can I do a 11/11 or 11reaper on a 4p map or would it be entirely dependent on scouting him first/second? And with a 11/11 if I kill the natural and the Z overbuilds units / spines to defend, i'm perfectly fine to go home and defend behind ccs+helions right?
Double proxy is a bit cheesy by any definition, and if he finds your building SCV with a drone you are in a lot of trouble. The reason for several SCVs is to make sure you can get bunkers up and even repair them, and also you need 2 to build the barracks (obviously). Note that 11/11 is much better on maps where you can block off the natural completely with 3 bunkers (for example Neo Planet S). In that case, no zerglings can do a run-by until the bunkers are destroyed. Going to defend/macro is fine, after the aggression is over. What else are you going to do  ?
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On May 13 2013 16:21 Matrijs wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2013 15:42 U_G_L_Y wrote:On May 13 2013 15:23 heartagram wrote:
Ok, how the hell do you hold the new 5:10 oracle timing?
I went reaper into reactor cc rax, and the oracle was in my mineral line right as my first 2 marines popped. My reaper scouted a gateway that made a zealot and a stalker and 2 gas. Should I count the amount of gas mined?
I put a huge hole in my wall because the build seems insanely stupid. With my build I get an engi bay blindly at 4:30, and that wasn't nearly fast enough, even though I thought it was the safest thing I could do. he walked a zealot and stalker across the map too, and I don't even have enough marines to deal with the oracles.
Is my build completely obsolete from this? are widow mine builds necessary now? An oracle cannot hit at 5:10 if he made a stalker. You should be able to have 6 marines in your mineral line with no reaper, a fast reaper forces a stalker which delays the oracle. This is not accurate. Perhaps you mean he can't get a stalker early enough to deny a reaper? + Show Spoiler +Stalker comes out at 4:15, oracle comes out at 5:00, hits the base at 5:05. Seems like there's significant probe cutting going on here, though. Maybe counting the probes is the way to go?
Hmm. I go 11/11 reaper, when I practiced against my friend, he would chrono out a stalker to deal with my reaper in his base, and this was why his oracle was hitting later (plus he is creative with his proxies because he knows that I know he never expands.) When I made the reaper, which he would scout with his 9th/pylon probe, he would chrono out a stalker before making a stargate, and so the oracle was getting in my base right at 5:30 just as my 6th marine pops, but looking at Halby's video with a 10 gateway and probe cut on 14 and only 1 pylon in base, I think things would shake out differently. I think a good player (no offense to my low master buddy) would just say screw it and not react at all until after the stargate is started, because it takes 6 shots to kill a probe and if he chases you or micros, it takes way more, while his oracle can kill a half-dozen workers no problem.
I think you are right, counting probes and only seeing ONE pylon when I get to his base shortly before the 4 minute mark means that you have to make an ebay immediately, that is the only way to hold. If you go 12 rax, 12 gas, 2 marines, reactor, then more marines, you have 6 at 5:10 but that means no scouting, and it is kind of a retarded build unless you know oracle is coming...
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2 Stalker mothership core openings basically get to kill 2 depots for free if you do a full wall, so you lose to many many things if you expanded, but I got proxy 2 gated a couple of times now because the meta is not to wall... What am I missing here? If 3 zealots show up in my base at 3:20 (or 2 zealots and a probe ready to make cannons,) my reaper isn't even done yet, Or I have 1 marine...
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On May 13 2013 20:48 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2013 15:23 heartagram wrote:
Ok, how the hell do you hold the new 5:10 oracle timing?
I went reaper into reactor cc rax, and the oracle was in my mineral line right as my first 2 marines popped. My reaper scouted a gateway that made a zealot and a stalker and 2 gas. Should I count the amount of gas mined?
I put a huge hole in my wall because the build seems insanely stupid. With my build I get an engi bay blindly at 4:30 That's too late, if your SCV scouts lack of second Pylon in his base you have to build it at 4'20 (or even 4'15) so the Turret is ready at 5'20 (5'15). Bunker highground to deal with any poke and shield your Marines.
how do you know its not proxy robo for immortal bust though so you are getting a ridiculously early engi bay and turret just hoping they are opening oracles? do you just blindly do it, then start making tanks and bunkers if no oracle comes?
also in this situation when scouting no 2nd pylon do you think its worth it to make your engi bay in their natural? does proxy oracle tend to have any gateway units out in time to stop an ebay block?
also its going to be annoying the first time a gsl protoss uses his scouting probe to randomly proxy 2nd pylon to fake out proxies and everyone on ladder starts copying it 
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Seeing the harras potential of protos. Has anyone ever opened :
12 gas
13 rax -->marines
@100 gas factory
+@50 gas for 2 widowmines (this is around 4:00 which means first2 mines are out before 5:20)
CC+bunker (maybe even get scv's off gas after 2nd WM production until enough minerals for CC )
into standard bio?
Im asking this because alot of people have problems against protos (seeing previous posts). Now, with 2 mines out early, your save against zealot/stalker/MSC harras and oracles. I have time enough to scout whats comming, if no early harras i can drop some mines in his base. I dont like the turret early because its expensive, cant attack and is static as this defense is more flexible and can be used offensively(opening bit similar as early hellion elevator without the starport). Anyone?
Edit : misread OP. sorry
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I'm recently having a huge problem against zergs who go swarmhost corrupter viper.
I'm kinda a pure mech player. how do you counter this or how do you stay alive with mech?
People have been telling me alot of things already but i'm just not sure.
Some say mass attack upg siege tanks + viking + banshee, some said full air switch (but wouldn't the locust have free reign then?), others said tank raven and the last (silly trolls) said alt+f4 was the best option.
I was wondering how you guys thought of this.
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Hello,
Masters Terran here.. been working on my tvz alot lately.. but I just played this game and had a really hard time getting any foothold in the game i felt.. after reviewing the replay.. i determined that i guess i needed to be more active with my main army.. while i was trying to do dmg with drops.. like clean up creep on the other side of the map.. but other than that.. looking for any advice to improve my play.. thank you
replay: http://drop.sc/334662
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On May 14 2013 19:09 Veetz wrote:Hello, Masters Terran here.. been working on my tvz alot lately.. but I just played this game and had a really hard time getting any foothold in the game i felt.. after reviewing the replay.. i determined that i guess i needed to be more active with my main army.. while i was trying to do dmg with drops.. like clean up creep on the other side of the map.. but other than that.. looking for any advice to improve my play.. thank you replay: http://drop.sc/334662
No master but i got a shiney logo beside my name and watched it so my day-before-birthday observation is:
8:00 U lost your 4 hellions --> mapcontrol/vision/denyingcreep is gone till 13 minutes. Be more carefull of speedlingtiming or just pull them back in time, because its a waste if u loose them.
14:30 U had the gas for +3/+3 but took 3 minutes to click it and u forgot to mine 1 gas on the third the whole game.
14:40 & 16:30 U get on creep but fail to clear the creep+queen succesfully, later on u loose a portion of your retreating army thx to that (this happened more then twice).
Whole game U do drop but forget to clean the air of overlords and clear creep. Doing this wright makes drops and retreating more succesfull. I.e. he saw drops comming from 30 seconds away because the creep and overlords were still there mutiple times. In one of your last drops, to the 5th base of zerg, u can clearly see that zerg saw the drop 30 seconds to early and he send 3 ultra's + lings to clean it up (happened more then once).
Endgame Your transition to vikings or ravens was a bit to late. Ravens are good against alot of units but especially broodlords as they cant run the target unit away on time or to your units (so no damage to your army). Backupplan : If no ravens+vikings etc then try to get the widowmines beneath the broodlords.
I think best to focus on is :
1. Dont loose early hellions;
2. Deny creep and overlords (1 viking will help alot) on map better early on;
3. Upgrades constantly;
4. Scout the transitions earlier and respond in time.
If u do the above i believe your drops are better, u can regroup with less losses when retreating, have an upgrade advantage and can respond in time to transitions.
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On May 14 2013 18:27 Juice! wrote:
I'm recently having a huge problem against zergs who go swarmhost corrupter viper.
I'm kinda a pure mech player. how do you counter this or how do you stay alive with mech?
People have been telling me alot of things already but i'm just not sure.
Some say mass attack upg siege tanks + viking + banshee, some said full air switch (but wouldn't the locust have free reign then?), others said tank raven and the last (silly trolls) said alt+f4 was the best option.
I was wondering how you guys thought of this.
sink your minerals into hellbats/hellions and harass him to death with his immobile army.
before corrupters are on the field if you usually work drilling claws into your build you can flank with a medivac speedboosting on top of swarm hosts...or do the same with hellbats. if you scan and catch them as they are trying to make the swarm hosts you can push then and force them to be used defensively...
or if it goes into a long game you need ravens for pdd to let you move forward without taking big losses. as any mech style looking to transition to lategame tends to incorporate mass ravens this is fine. playing mech you kind of need to switch to a mix of mech and air super-lategame to not die to broodlords
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On May 14 2013 18:27 Juice! wrote:
I'm recently having a huge problem against zergs who go swarmhost corrupter viper.
I'm kinda a pure mech player. how do you counter this or how do you stay alive with mech?
People have been telling me alot of things already but i'm just not sure.
Some say mass attack upg siege tanks + viking + banshee, some said full air switch (but wouldn't the locust have free reign then?), others said tank raven and the last (silly trolls) said alt+f4 was the best option.
I was wondering how you guys thought of this.
I hit a bit of trouble with SH. Personally I've just started being way more aggressive to force the burrow to happen closer to his base. Normally what zergs have been doing to me is to make 7-10 roaches to push my hellions/reapers home and then tech switch to SH and can then cross the map unhindered and burrow where they want. What I've been focusing on is, if they push me back with roaches, I have an army able to push them right back home, or atleast trade well enough with his army that he is forced to make more units(before he can realistically make SHs), so he won't have high gas/drones. I try to use the rax to spot if it is actually safe or what is going on(only making roaches can be lethal to early pushouts).
After you have stabalized from the SHs I think your only real option is to start adding in air, both to kill vipers before a blinding cloud can be put down and ofc to try force the SHs further back. Just remember while making tanks and trying to stabalize that he can still be getting a spire, so you must have some thors(I usually put them slightly in the front to 'tank' a wave of locust and then switch a back thor with front thor to repair the front thor). Your other option is just trying to play it like a protoss, "dodging" the locust that is sent at you and always being ready to pounch the SHs if a chance arises(such as he sends locusts not towards you but in another direction). That hasn't worked well for me though.
SHs are alongside vipers insanely strong against mech, I find it actually harder to play against them than vipers.
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With regards to swarmhosts, if you can't hellbat/mine drop them or can't get rid of them with banshees/ravens and what not, then you need to outmaneuver them. Sometimes I'll split my mech army in half, bait the swarmhosts in one place and then pick of an expansion with the other army for example.
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On May 15 2013 02:22 Veetz wrote:
thnx govie
Im a bit below ur level, but i hope i didnt say anything dumn in that analysis (although my analysis it felt right and looked logical).
Denying vision mostly gives me like 3 times more damagedone out of drops, that would have basically given u the win way before the BL's were knocking at your door *because he wouldnt have the eco for them).
Goodluck!
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On May 15 2013 01:40 ThePianoDentist wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2013 18:27 Juice! wrote:
I'm recently having a huge problem against zergs who go swarmhost corrupter viper.
I'm kinda a pure mech player. how do you counter this or how do you stay alive with mech?
People have been telling me alot of things already but i'm just not sure.
Some say mass attack upg siege tanks + viking + banshee, some said full air switch (but wouldn't the locust have free reign then?), others said tank raven and the last (silly trolls) said alt+f4 was the best option.
I was wondering how you guys thought of this. sink your minerals into hellbats/hellions and harass him to death with his immobile army. before corrupters are on the field if you usually work drilling claws into your build you can flank with a medivac speedboosting on top of swarm hosts...or do the same with hellbats. if you scan and catch them as they are trying to make the swarm hosts you can push then and force them to be used defensively... or if it goes into a long game you need ravens for pdd to let you move forward without taking big losses. as any mech style looking to transition to lategame tends to incorporate mass ravens this is fine. playing mech you kind of need to switch to a mix of mech and air super-lategame to not die to broodlords
Thank you so much! I never really considered hellions (until i now saw forGG in WCS ^^)
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EPT
