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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
+ Show Spoiler +http://drop.sc/323108
So I had almost double his supply and lost so I am obviously awful vs storms.
Should I never engage a toss outside of drops once he has storm and just position myself outside my third with a pre spread?
So thoughts? Any comments on why storm rapes me so hard?
Just a replay for anyone to look over, PM me with answers if you feel this is out of place for this thread. My TvP vs storm at this point is like 10%.
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On April 14 2013 13:42 Esoterikk wrote:+ Show Spoiler +http://drop.sc/323108
So I had almost double his supply and lost so I am obviously awful vs storms.
Should I never engage a toss outside of drops once he has storm and just position myself outside my third with a pre spread?
So thoughts? Any comments on why storm rapes me so hard?
Just a replay for anyone to look over, PM me with answers if you feel this is out of place for this thread. My TvP vs storm at this point is like 10%.
Watched it. I will not say anything about getting supplyblocked and having 6 idle workers the whole game. You didnt stop building scv's so thats ok
1. U should have killed the proxy so u would not need turrets so early, those minerals can go to better use.
2. U dropped his main, there was no robo, that means no detection (100% no detection if u killed the stargateproxy). U could have dropped some mines after your initial drop and killed more probes. That would have been effective.
3. Your engagement was bad. Your ghosts were uncloaked and/or u didnt scan to snipe any possible observer. After that u were doomed. But in general u let him get his composition, u waited until u were maxed out, why not put the pressure on earlier. Drop here and attack there harras etcetc but nothing happened.
4. Get a good engagement, meaning a good concave or set yourself up for a good fight. Your engagement was in a narrow choke against an AOE army.....
5. Just try to dodge the storms a bit in a place on the map where its easier to manouvre, so no chokes with a big army. Let him take the bate and launch a storm or 2 then backoff, go in again. etcetc.
Against templar u have 3 possibilities :
1. GTFO templar kamikazestyle! U keep trading and harrasing. Templars are gasexpensive so they take time to manufacture but u can outproduce your opponent. He cant get his deathball in this way. Yes he will have some templar but not alot.
2. U build ghosts and go micro vs micro. the best will win. If your micro is less good of your opponent u will loose and could get crushed.
3. Build an army thats can deal with storm. Since hots, u can go marauder/hellbat/medivac which can handle storms better. If u encounter templar u could switch to these beefier units and try it out. In general u could start with alot of marines but mid / late game i would build more marauders then marines (certainly more then u had)
I myself dont use ghosts because i suck at micro. But i allmost never loose to a templarbuilds because i just keep trading, keep expanding, keep building more production buildings. And get more beefier army as time passes on.
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On April 14 2013 13:42 Esoterikk wrote:+ Show Spoiler +http://drop.sc/323108
So I had almost double his supply and lost so I am obviously awful vs storms.
Should I never engage a toss outside of drops once he has storm and just position myself outside my third with a pre spread?
So thoughts? Any comments on why storm rapes me so hard?
Just a replay for anyone to look over, PM me with answers if you feel this is out of place for this thread. My TvP vs storm at this point is like 10%.
Hey, not sure what league your in, but I'll take a look at the replay. Low master's Terran (I think, hovering around 900 points). Also sorry for such a large write-up, just wanting to help in each and which way possible. :D
First thing I notice is you went Reaper Expand, which I like a lot, but your follow up seems off. Overall, though, you manage to keep your money low, which is good. You get the Tech lab, but end up delaying Stim by a lot. You had around 240 gas while mining from a single refinery before getting it. If your going to transition into more standard play like that, I suggest doing what Bomber did in his series vs Creator and pulling scv's out of gas after mining 100 and making a reactor on the first barracks, then build a second barracks, and put scv's back into gas when the second barracks is about halfway done. From there you add the second refinery, unless you scout a delayed/no expansion, around the time you start stim and play as if it was a 1 rax Fe, adding the factory, e-bay, and 3rd refinery at about the same time, +1 weapons when the E-bay finishes, starport when factory finishes and start a reactor on the factory, to swap with the starport and go for Medivacs. At this point push out as the medivacs are building.
Basic Build Order
+ Show Spoiler +Depot
Barracks
Refinery (Pull scv's off gas after 100 mined)
OC
Reaper
CC (low ground if possible)
Reactor
Depot
Barracks (put scv's back in after it is halfway done)
Tech lab (Get stim at next 100 gas)
Game 1 of Bomber vs Creator Standard Opening off of Reaper expand
Game 2 of Bomber vs Creator Reacting to a Stargate
Your opponent also went Proxy Oracle before expanding and only killed one Scv. Even with your build order you are ahead by a good margin, but if you had a better build order, you would be miles ahead.
Also, when you start your starport, you did not use the factory to create a reactor. Instead, you make the reactor on the starport itself, and only make 1 medivac out of it! What this does is it delays your first medivacs by a large amount. You also get upgrades before your third or extra barracks, along with the fourth barracks before your third CC. If you get the upgrades first, I recommend the third CC before adding extra barracks, then going up to five barracks right away. Since your opponent went for early Templar, you can then add another 2 barracks, up to 7. If you scouted collosus first, and not a collosus fake, you can add the 2nd starport after going up to five barracks.
The Protoss throws down an 8:30ish Templar tech. You haven't scouted at all past the initial reaper. This is super important. What you an do is try scanning at around 7:00-7:30 (if the reaper dies) to try to determine what the Toss is doing. You do not even know if the Toss has expanded yet! You have no idea what the protoss is doing until you drop his base at 11:30. (during this time it's completely possible for him to have done a chargelot storm timing attack and either heavily damage you or even outright kill you if your not prepared). (I also like the drop, but only do it if you can't push his front with your initial push).
Your third is a planetary! This limits you income severely, as another orbital command would grant you an extra 240 minerals/min. (extra mule). Simply a bunker and turret will be enough to deter harassment attempts, forcing him to commit an unfavorable amount to deal damage, allowing you to produce out of another barracks or two.
You also do not scout his third! You could have denied it with a small chunk of your bio if you had scouted it.
Another important thing that occurred was you delayed your ghosts by minutes. You start building the Ghost Acadamy at around 11:30 and start your first ghost around 15:00 (also neglecting the energy upgrade). Ever since that drop you did you saw his Templar, but you were really slow on reacting to it. This would be my first piece of advice when dealing with storm. You also have a super heavy marine composition, which can be quite vulnerable to storms without good ghost usage and/or splits. Near the end of the game you push to engage with 5 ghosts and a near max army, which can be enough to neutralize his storms if used controlled correctly. But not only do only you get decent EMPS (you get some of the Templar), you lose all of the ghosts with you army, leaving 4 of his 7 templar with full energy (enough for 8 storms). You then do just about the worst thing possible, you run up the ramp when he still has 4 Templar with full energy)! Unless you kill or EMP every single Templar, and his AOE in general, then avoid engaging if at all possible. You also have no vikings nor the production to deal with the Collosus, but they weren't what won him the game. Engaging at a horrible position and eating his storms were what lost you the game. Despite have a 30 supply army lead, you traded roughly 80 of your army supply for 20 of his. Yet, you do have the superior economy, which usually is a comfortable position to be in as Terran, but you will not be able to amass an army big enough to deal with his counter attack. You simply lost too much to kill too little at this point.
When it comes to position your army in battles, you want ghosts in the front. This will allow you to throw down EMPS and snipes before he can get storms off, esp. if you use scan to keep vision of the his army. You then want your Bio right behind your ghosts, as to be prepared to engage the Toss when his AOE is Neutralized. Position vikings slightly ahead of both your ghosts and Bio, and constantly attempt to take pot shots at the colossi while preventing as much damage to your own vikings as possible (flying them in air space where ground units can't reach for example). I use three hotkeys to actually control my army, 1 has my Bio and Medivacs, 2 has my Vikings until I get ghosts, 3 is usually used for a drop until ghosts are out, and then becomes my viking control group. This allows me to quickly switch between my units when necessary and cast the appropriate abilities/spells.
Honestly though, even with your opener and follow-up, you were in a position to at least deal a lot of damage to the toss, but bad ghost control in addition to picking a horrible spot to engage led to such a defeat. A better opener and follow up would have put you in an even more solid of a spot. Even in HOTS, T v P is still largely about the big engagement, and screwing that up horribly will essentially cost you the game. I actually feel more comfortable with the game getting to the late game, as I feel Ghost/Bio/Viking/Medivac can beat any ground based Toss comp. if I react accordingly. Only problem i can for see is with mass Tempest, but I think theoretically raven/mass viking/ghost/bio can deal with them accordingly.
I wish I had a replay I could post, to possibly help show what I'm trying to explain, but I haven't been getting many T v P's lately, and the ones I do play don't last very long. T_T
Hopefully this helps at least a little, as I know this might be a lot of information to take in at once. Feel free to add me, HellHound.195, if you ever need some more help. Also, if anyone reads this and finds that I am wrong, feel free to call me out on it, and add anything I may have missed. :D
TL DR
Look up a better opener to put you in a more solid position.
Work on scouting and your follow up macro.
Better army positioning (Ghosts in front of Bio to deal with Templar, vikings in air space if possible, spreading your army)
Work on choosing better engagements (force the protoss to go into a choke, funneling his army, sniping stray units, no AOE)
Work on ghost control (snipe vs EMP, positioning, retreating them, and etc.)
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If I dont kill a toss with the 2 medivac +1 stim combat shield timing push how should I follow it up?
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On April 13 2013 23:41 govie wrote:On topic. Your scouting sux. U know the timing for an oracle. Make sure to keep scouting his base, u didnt. If u know there is a proxy somewhere find it and kill it. Youve killed the oracle and u were ahead, but your follow up is really screwed up. Once u get a mine, why all the turrets? Just build 1 turret per mineralline max but mines are good anti-air too. I see this shit in alot of replays, peeps see oracles and go mass anti-air, delaying everything else, they lose to 1 immortal and 4 stalkers at 10 minutes and then BM the shit out of the toss.. So typical So, in general : 1. Keep scouting his base. If u see only 2 pylons u know there is a proxy, go find it. 2. Find proxy and kill it. No haste, u can even kill it after the first oracle harrasses u but u do need to kill it, u had enough time to find and kill the proxy. 3. Mines + marines are allready good anti air after killing 1 oracle. And no need for turrets if u can kill the proxy. I u cant kill or find the proxy, just build 1 turret per mineralline max. That wont hurt your economy and tech. 4. Dont panic. U lost because u panicked after killing 1 oracle and screwed everything up (building that tank was a fine example). 5. Keep building scv's allways (your 2nd CC was idle for a long time too).
thanks, I completely forgot to count his pylons...
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On April 14 2013 20:12 korsarz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2013 23:41 govie wrote:On topic. Your scouting sux. U know the timing for an oracle. Make sure to keep scouting his base, u didnt. If u know there is a proxy somewhere find it and kill it. Youve killed the oracle and u were ahead, but your follow up is really screwed up. Once u get a mine, why all the turrets? Just build 1 turret per mineralline max but mines are good anti-air too. I see this shit in alot of replays, peeps see oracles and go mass anti-air, delaying everything else, they lose to 1 immortal and 4 stalkers at 10 minutes and then BM the shit out of the toss.. So typical So, in general : 1. Keep scouting his base. If u see only 2 pylons u know there is a proxy, go find it. 2. Find proxy and kill it. No haste, u can even kill it after the first oracle harrasses u but u do need to kill it, u had enough time to find and kill the proxy. 3. Mines + marines are allready good anti air after killing 1 oracle. And no need for turrets if u can kill the proxy. I u cant kill or find the proxy, just build 1 turret per mineralline max. That wont hurt your economy and tech. 4. Dont panic. U lost because u panicked after killing 1 oracle and screwed everything up (building that tank was a fine example). 5. Keep building scv's allways (your 2nd CC was idle for a long time too). thanks, I completely forgot to count his pylons...
But that was not why u lost. U deflected his oracle attack well enough
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hi guys,
should i prefer with a reactor fac FE a 13 Gas or 15 Gas when i want to play mech?
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On April 14 2013 11:48 A Wild Sosd wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2013 09:28 Thor.Rush wrote:
Lucifron's hellbat drop build, which he does in TvZ and TvT, seems pretty damn legit too. Got that written down too ofc. Care to share this? ATC K3/Quantic Lucifron vs Hyun for TvZ, saw someone suggest it for gosubuilds website. Replay http://rapidshare.com/files/2081895605/K3vsQuantic.rar
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Does anyone know any good all-ins vP? The only one I've tried that seems to work with any form of consistency is a variation of Jjakji's Cloak Banshee -> 2 Base Marine Thor Banshee all-in. Everything else seems to get shut down by the MsC's Nexus Cannon / ability to fly.
edit: ~1250pt masters for reference
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Short question: How do you guys make your ghost use snipe efficently? I usually spam snipe on one HT but my ghosts only shoot once and they get away :c
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On April 15 2013 03:10 FancyCaTSC2 wrote:
Short question: How do you guys make your ghost use snipe efficently? I usually spam snipe on one HT but my ghosts only shoot once and they get away :c
I like to select ghosts, hit a, click a HT, then shift a-click that HT again and double shift-a-click other HTs. That way the ghosts take the quickest path to each HT. The a-key needs only be pressed once for the shift clicking.
Alternatively, I do what you do and spam. I don't know why it doesn't work for you maybe you did something wrong?
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On April 15 2013 03:10 FancyCaTSC2 wrote:
Short question: How do you guys make your ghost use snipe efficently? I usually spam snipe on one HT but my ghosts only shoot once and they get away :c
You have to be careful that you are not double-clicking with the snipe command. You have to either hold down the 'R' key and click repeatedly OR hit 'R' separately in between each click. If you hit 'R' and then double click on the HT or the ground you deselect the Ghosts and nothing fires. In addition, each Ghost has to be in range to execute a snipe command, so if only one is close and your clicks are not fast or precise enough, the HT can get away if the Protoss player is paying attention.
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On April 15 2013 03:24 Jazzman88 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2013 03:10 FancyCaTSC2 wrote:
Short question: How do you guys make your ghost use snipe efficently? I usually spam snipe on one HT but my ghosts only shoot once and they get away :c You have to be careful that you are not double-clicking with the snipe command. You have to either hold down the 'R' key and click repeatedly OR hit 'R' separately in between each click. If you hit 'R' and then double click on the HT or the ground you deselect the Ghosts and nothing fires. In addition, each Ghost has to be in range to execute a snipe command, so if only one is close and your clicks are not fast or precise enough, the HT can get away if the Protoss player is paying attention.
Thanks! I didn't know you can just hold down the snipe key, just tried in singleplayer. Makes everything so much easier, thanks thanks thanks.
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how can i scout this kind of all ins : http://drop.sc/323826
i see no way to get the information i need in order to put down bunkers
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On April 15 2013 05:48 Strater wrote:how can i scout this kind of all ins : http://drop.sc/323826 i see no way to get the information i need in order to put down bunkers
The way I see it there's a few things you might consider (I'm far from an expert on this):
1. Losing that Reaper early is a big blow; it got no scout of what tech he wanted. The biggest benefit was you saw the double gas. Keeping that Reaper alive would have meant you could see the expansion without burning a scan and then your scan could have been used to find out the all-in.
2. There was no follow-up scout to your scan (which only saw the expansion), which did let you know he kept every one of his first few units back for some reason (already a flag for me). You scanned and saw nothing useful, so why not waste 1 SCV to see his composition? Send it at 7:00, waypointing across some common proxy pylon spots and you would probably see either the probe placing the pylons or even get to see his front. Most heavy Gateway/Robo attacks move out between 7:30 and 8:30 anyway if I remember correctly, so that will either let you see A) no units at the front = panic time/extra Scan or B) hey, look, Immortals, better build Bunkers.
3. Scouting was not the only thing that did you in. Your Factory saw the front proxy pylon AND the Immortals coming. You could have put down the extra Bunker 25 seconds earlier when you saw the front proxy, plus as soon as you glimpsed the Immortals, I would be pulling all of the SCVs in front of the Bunkers.
4. Lack of target fire - none of the Immortals got touched during the fight. Looking closely at the replay, it sure looks as if the Immortals were not targeted ever. If you could have even gotten 1 of those bad boys, that takes a lot of firepower out of his army. Particularly because if you can get one or both of the Immortals, it's viable to attempt to lift the natural, retreat up your main ramp, wait for Stim and +1, and then proceed to slaughter his force with Bio/Medivac. As it was they wrecked everything you needed to defend.
My few cents. Take it for what it's worth. Also, take a look at the OP under "How do I defend Immortals all-in?"
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to 1. i lost it but i saw that i wanted to expand sure ( he didnt keep his probe down there he just moved it down and he couldnt see when my scout does arrive) i was pretty sure he expanded, i still scanned to be safe .... and what kind of follow up scout do you mean? i never see pros using any other abilities to scout not even scan, and i cant see anything from 1 scan really if he has a good building placement
2. never saw a pro doin this ... ill try it
3 yes i agree i reacted kinda slow but i just thought dts in that moment lol
4 i tried to focus fire but u cant focus fire vs forcefield since marines will just run into ff to try and reach the immortal and not attack anything (at least a big part of them)
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Does anyone know the build Byun uses a lot in TvP? I know he goes 12 rax 12 gas reaper into expand then tech lab but i can't remember much else.
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http://drop.sc/323918
idk what the fuck is going on in tvz.
I went 4M. Stim, shields, got to 3/3, mines everywhere and my armies get melted by roach/hydralisk. that's pretty much all he even made during this game and i couldn't do anything about it. i can't do anything vs. it and i'm like out of all the zerg compositions, mass roach/hydra melts my army like swiss cheese even off-creep even with medivacs but it gets to the point where even with mines/army he can just a-move to my expansions and kill it off while he keeps expanding and going to ultralisks.
i'm not even mad just confused.
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how do you defend against hellbat rush drops in tvt ?
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On April 15 2013 10:41 suicideyear wrote:http://drop.sc/323918idk what the fuck is going on in tvz. I went 4M. Stim, shields, got to 3/3, mines everywhere and my armies get melted by roach/hydralisk. that's pretty much all he even made during this game and i couldn't do anything about it. i can't do anything vs. it and i'm like out of all the zerg compositions, mass roach/hydra melts my army like swiss cheese even off-creep even with medivacs but it gets to the point where even with mines/army he can just a-move to my expansions and kill it off while he keeps expanding and going to ultralisks. i'm not even mad just confused.
The standard response when you see roach/hydra is switch out of mines and into tank.
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EPT
