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On April 13 2013 07:10 geokilla wrote: How do I defend a Protoss who 3 Gate Robos or 4 Gate? Mothership Core and Time Warp makes it impossible for me to defend against right now. Losing all my games against Protoss today because of these all ins. Any specific build I should go for? I go 1 Rax FE in TvP.
I'm gonna practice them against the AI on Hard.
Bunkers shut down these builds hard, you just have to scout it coming.
Had em. No go...
well did you have scvs already surrounding the bunker set on auto repair? with minimum 3 bunkers in case of 3 gate robo. 4 gate they really shouldnt be able to kill the bunkers quick enough to beat even 2 repaired bunkers. complaining about time warp which has no effect on units sat in bunkers suggests you didn't have your scvs in place in time.
its debatable where 1 rax fe is safe anymore what with how early proxy oracles can hit your base. it may be better to expand later after getting gas to get early reactor on rax and a factory for a couple of widow mines, im not sure, i like to harass so i havent experimented much with gasless expand in hots, just going on what ive seen in pro games
Well by the time I saw it, I pulled my SCVs for the repair but it was too late. When I sent in a scout, I saw that he had a standard 1/2 gas opening. 2 gas opening is usually a sign of aggression, but it can also be Sentry expand I believe, so I didn't expect it. Same for 1 gas as it could be 1 Gate expand. 2 minutes later, I sent in my scout again, but it got denied.
If I'm to do the early gas builds, how am I supposed to do it? I've seen Polt go 1 Rax, build 2 Marines, then Reactor while build CC and Barracks with tech lab I think?
On April 13 2013 07:10 geokilla wrote: How do I defend a Protoss who 3 Gate Robos or 4 Gate? Mothership Core and Time Warp makes it impossible for me to defend against right now. Losing all my games against Protoss today because of these all ins. Any specific build I should go for? I go 1 Rax FE in TvP.
I'm gonna practice them against the AI on Hard.
Bunkers shut down these builds hard, you just have to scout it coming.
Had em. No go...
well did you have scvs already surrounding the bunker set on auto repair? with minimum 3 bunkers in case of 3 gate robo. 4 gate they really shouldnt be able to kill the bunkers quick enough to beat even 2 repaired bunkers. complaining about time warp which has no effect on units sat in bunkers suggests you didn't have your scvs in place in time.
its debatable where 1 rax fe is safe anymore what with how early proxy oracles can hit your base. it may be better to expand later after getting gas to get early reactor on rax and a factory for a couple of widow mines, im not sure, i like to harass so i havent experimented much with gasless expand in hots, just going on what ive seen in pro games
Well by the time I saw it, I pulled my SCVs for the repair but it was too late. When I sent in a scout, I saw that he had a standard 1/2 gas opening. 2 gas opening is usually a sign of aggression, but it can also be Sentry expand I believe, so I didn't expect it. Same for 1 gas as it could be 1 Gate expand. 2 minutes later, I sent in my scout again, but it got denied.
If I'm to do the early gas builds, how am I supposed to do it? I've seen Polt go 1 Rax, build 2 Marines, then Reactor while build CC and Barracks with tech lab I think?
Did you count pylons? that's usually the indicator more than gas alone.
On April 13 2013 07:10 geokilla wrote: How do I defend a Protoss who 3 Gate Robos or 4 Gate? Mothership Core and Time Warp makes it impossible for me to defend against right now. Losing all my games against Protoss today because of these all ins. Any specific build I should go for? I go 1 Rax FE in TvP.
I'm gonna practice them against the AI on Hard.
Bunkers shut down these builds hard, you just have to scout it coming.
Had em. No go...
well did you have scvs already surrounding the bunker set on auto repair? with minimum 3 bunkers in case of 3 gate robo. 4 gate they really shouldnt be able to kill the bunkers quick enough to beat even 2 repaired bunkers. complaining about time warp which has no effect on units sat in bunkers suggests you didn't have your scvs in place in time.
its debatable where 1 rax fe is safe anymore what with how early proxy oracles can hit your base. it may be better to expand later after getting gas to get early reactor on rax and a factory for a couple of widow mines, im not sure, i like to harass so i havent experimented much with gasless expand in hots, just going on what ive seen in pro games
Well by the time I saw it, I pulled my SCVs for the repair but it was too late. When I sent in a scout, I saw that he had a standard 1/2 gas opening. 2 gas opening is usually a sign of aggression, but it can also be Sentry expand I believe, so I didn't expect it. Same for 1 gas as it could be 1 Gate expand. 2 minutes later, I sent in my scout again, but it got denied.
If I'm to do the early gas builds, how am I supposed to do it? I've seen Polt go 1 Rax, build 2 Marines, then Reactor while build CC and Barracks with tech lab I think?
Did you count pylons? that's usually the indicator more than gas alone.
this. if he doesnt have a 3rd pylon in his base building or built whilst his stalker is building he has a proxy that you need to try and find.
if you are doing an economic opening and he is all-inning its okay to have a few scvs already in place around the bunkers rather than waiting for him to attack to pull, you should still be ahead with 2 orbitals worth of mules. try and hide an scv if you didnt go reaper to check his expansion timing and if hes not expanding then have scvs pre-positioned before the fight.
what i like to do as well is I leave one scv kind of outside my natural so unless he has a stalker sitting right there it gives me a few more vital seconds to react to an all-in, or if you opened widow mines you can have one widow mine here to give you a heads up as to when its about to hit. if he has an obs you may lose the mine for free but enough marines bunker and decent repair is enough to hold pretty much any frontal pvt all-in
On April 13 2013 07:10 geokilla wrote: How do I defend a Protoss who 3 Gate Robos or 4 Gate? Mothership Core and Time Warp makes it impossible for me to defend against right now. Losing all my games against Protoss today because of these all ins. Any specific build I should go for? I go 1 Rax FE in TvP.
I'm gonna practice them against the AI on Hard.
Bunkers shut down these builds hard, you just have to scout it coming.
Had em. No go...
well did you have scvs already surrounding the bunker set on auto repair? with minimum 3 bunkers in case of 3 gate robo. 4 gate they really shouldnt be able to kill the bunkers quick enough to beat even 2 repaired bunkers. complaining about time warp which has no effect on units sat in bunkers suggests you didn't have your scvs in place in time.
its debatable where 1 rax fe is safe anymore what with how early proxy oracles can hit your base. it may be better to expand later after getting gas to get early reactor on rax and a factory for a couple of widow mines, im not sure, i like to harass so i havent experimented much with gasless expand in hots, just going on what ive seen in pro games
Well by the time I saw it, I pulled my SCVs for the repair but it was too late. When I sent in a scout, I saw that he had a standard 1/2 gas opening. 2 gas opening is usually a sign of aggression, but it can also be Sentry expand I believe, so I didn't expect it. Same for 1 gas as it could be 1 Gate expand. 2 minutes later, I sent in my scout again, but it got denied.
If I'm to do the early gas builds, how am I supposed to do it? I've seen Polt go 1 Rax, build 2 Marines, then Reactor while build CC and Barracks with tech lab I think?
there are multiple different builds, on ladder I myself prefer just a 12 rax 13 gas to have the earlier gas to get a reaper for better scouting but its not necessary
here is a more economic opening with 15 gas 8 mins in, still getting a factory for widow mines or all-ins.
dont watch much of polt but that sounds plausible, have a look on his stream next time and just copy what he does
00:03 [All] Demoncron: good luck, have fun and have a nice day! 00:07 [All] korsarz: hf 00:26 [All] korsarz: i will have a very bad day since i'm playing against a toss 00:39 [All] Demoncron: im not that good 07:54 [All] korsarz: retarded race for retarded ppl
On topic.
Your scouting sux. U know the timing for an oracle. Make sure to keep scouting his base, u didnt. If u know there is a proxy somewhere find it and kill it. Youve killed the oracle and u were ahead, but your follow up is really screwed up. Once u get a mine, why all the turrets? Just build 1 turret per mineralline max but mines are good anti-air too. I see this shit in alot of replays, peeps see oracles and go mass anti-air, delaying everything else, they lose to 1 immortal and 4 stalkers at 10 minutes and then BM the shit out of the toss.. So typical
So, in general :
1. Keep scouting his base. If u see only 2 pylons u know there is a proxy, go find it. 2. Find proxy and kill it. No haste, u can even kill it after the first oracle harrasses u but u do need to kill it, u had enough time to find and kill the proxy. 3. Mines + marines are allready good anti air after killing 1 oracle. And no need for turrets if u can kill the proxy. I u cant kill or find the proxy, just build 1 turret per mineralline max. That wont hurt your economy and tech. 4. Dont panic. U lost because u panicked after killing 1 oracle and screwed everything up (building that tank was a fine example). 5. Keep building scv's allways (your 2nd CC was idle for a long time too).
On April 11 2013 13:31 stoppersur wrote: Hi all, I am a plat Terran player, TvP is def my worst match up.
Is there any viable 1-base allin, early pressure/timing builds that give us Terran more options early game.
I know that widow mine drop is an option, but since the DT drop build is so popular at the moment, they can get an obs out and counter is easily.
I feel like at the current TvP meta, Terran is so predictable while on the other hand Protoss has so many option to pressure or punish a greedy/careless Terran.Namely DT drops, immortal allin, oracle harass, 4 Gate, MSC stalker harass etc. If we fail to scout what is coming, those builds can do massive and fatal damage.
Any advise?
A nice pressure build I have been using lately attacks with 6 mines and a bunch of combat shield marines very early in the game, while expanding behind it and gives you different possibilites to follow up.
12 rax 15 gas (14 SCV builds it when it comes out) 16 OC 16 2nd depot 20 CC @ 150 gas fact + reactor (should have 3 marines) 150minerals 2nd rax 150minerals 3rd rax (You dont need a 3rd depot CC will finish in time) 1st rax builds techlab after reactor, start combat shield immediately after Swap reactor to factory make window mines Move out with 6 mines and your marines when combat shield is about to finish (you will have 4 mines when combat shield is about to pop and have to rally the other 2 across the map) The goal of your push is of course to do damage, but it eventually kills the protoss straight away
Of course the usual things apply: keep out an eye for proxy stargate or oracle play in general, constant marine scv production from all rax, you can start stim right after combat shield finishes something you should not forget. be aware that this push delays your medivacs. Other than that there are different possible transitions out of this: -keep the pressure if you are about to kill him -go into double ebay -go into fast 3rd -(sucessfully defend his all in)
Really like the sound of this, you wouldn't happen to have a replay or two would you? Is it just strict marines no marauders?
Hey, apparently it took me some time to upload a replay but here finally is one. Would've had 3 marines more without that little supply block also skipping the bunker eventually helps cause you are mineral starved. I prefer building CC on the low ground to even show them my expand (like "hey i'm not doing anything special"). His build was a bit weird though but it works against most other standart stuff I meet.
On April 10 2013 02:40 ghostH27 wrote: I've been have trouble with zerg recently. So I want to ask you 2 question.
1) When to push out with marine/tank? I don't know when to push out. usually I try drop when I have medivac. this is drop harass. And push out all army when supply reached maximum.
2) Engagement Point I try marine split and tank split slightly. not clump. but I don't know when should I transform siege tank back to tank mode and move my troops.
You generally want to push out as you gain map control. Think of drops as tugging zerg between bases. You can either engage him where he goes or attack and prepare for his counter where he isn't. Move your troops when you win a battle (he disengages), then decide if he has enough to stop you if you continue pushing into his territory or if you should retreat.
Thank you. I've understood that my troops move when win a battle. But I don't know well "want to push out as you gain map control". I use drop but he don't move unit on XNT. So I can't get map control with drop. I want to answer like that you should push out when you have 4tanks. And I don't know this is right.
Alrighty then, just encountered my first HoTS TvT where my opponent went mech, it was scary, Tank/hellbat trades very cost efficiently.
I won the game however this was, I believe, just due to the fact I produced more stuff, and his rounds of tank/hellbat got smaller and smaller until I won.
Any things to take into consideration? I realised I should have got marauders (I went marine/tank) and that you need to abuse the mobility of bio as well as drop a hell of a lot.
Thanks to anyone who can help out! (I'm not asking for rep advice so I didn't post a rep, I just want to know if there are a few pointers beyond marauder and mobility)
Edit: I did read the TvT thing on 1 rax fe then your opponent going mech if anyone is going to point that out ^^
On April 14 2013 04:14 Targe wrote: Alrighty then, just encountered my first HoTS TvT where my opponent went mech, it was scary, Tank/hellbat trades very cost efficiently.
I won the game however this was, I believe, just due to the fact I produced more stuff, and his rounds of tank/hellbat got smaller and smaller until I won.
Any things to take into consideration? I realised I should have got marauders (I went marine/tank) and that you need to abuse the mobility of bio as well as drop a hell of a lot.
Thanks to anyone who can help out! (I'm not asking for rep advice so I didn't post a rep, I just want to know if there are a few pointers beyond marauder and mobility)
Edit: I did read the TvT thing on 1 rax fe then your opponent going mech if anyone is going to point that out ^^
I saw polt 2 days ago against empirekas going mech. He started Marine/tank into marauder/tank aswell and engaged the mecharmy from 3 different groups/positions for a good surround (so that tanks were more inefficient). He traded efficiently because of how he engaged and slowly transitioned into 4 starports for BC's/marauder/tank comp. Ofcourse he won because hes polt!
Anyone taken the time to write out the 11/11 reaper FE TvZ build demuslim does? He goes into 3 OC and 5 rax 1 fac double ebay. I got the gist of it, but want more proper timings. This is the best I got so far, just decided to type it out today. Wonder if anyone has more exact timings, or a rep of him doing a very clean version?
TvZ 11/11Reaper 3 CC 10 Depot 11 Rax 11 Gas 14 OC 15 Reaper 15 Depot (200 minerals, rally to nat) 17 Reaper 19 CC 21 Fac 21 Reactor on Rax 24 CC 30 Depot 32 Tech lab on Rax Stim ~7 min double ebay Drop 4 more rax, then 4 reactors. Harass with 2 reapers and hellions 56 refinery
What is the best way to stop a proxy 2 gate at the top of my ramp? I've died to the after effects of holding it because I am behind in scvs and I feel like I am handling it very poorly. Both times I think I pulled 3-4 scvs and attacked the probe/pylon and made a bunker near them
I also have been wondering about the finer points of Demu's build TvZ since there are only 2 zerg players in North America that can beat him. I know he moves out with 6 hellions and 2 reapers, and he doesn't start stim until he starts +1+1, the tech lab is just in case he scouts roaches and wants to make a marauder
On April 14 2013 07:43 Onox wrote: What is the best way to stop a proxy 2 gate at the top of my ramp? I've died to the after effects of holding it because I am behind in scvs and I feel like I am handling it very poorly. Both times I think I pulled 3-4 scvs and attacked the probe/pylon and made a bunker near them
If he 2-gates inside your base, start a bunker near your mineral line right away. You don't have to pull any scvs. Get marines to your bunker, add another rax. Keep poking at his gates/zealots with your marines until you have enough to kill them. The only time when u should lose scvs is when the first zealot comes out and your marine isn't in the bunker yet. Then you should try and micro against the zealot while buying time for your marine. With correct marine micro you should be able to clear him out of your main and you're way ahead.
Edit: Since I haven't played against this in hots yet, I forgot the reaper option. It's probably better to add a gas and go into reapers once you secure your mineral line since they can threaten his base and kite zealots much easier. Also they're better at dealing with stalkers. I haven't experimented with this yet however.
On April 14 2013 07:43 Onox wrote: What is the best way to stop a proxy 2 gate at the top of my ramp? I've died to the after effects of holding it because I am behind in scvs and I feel like I am handling it very poorly. Both times I think I pulled 3-4 scvs and attacked the probe/pylon and made a bunker near them
Use the rampblockable to your advantage as polt did today (but depends on game ofc). U could allready have a depot at the ramp. Place the barrax+2nd depot so u can rally to both sides of the blockade (highground and lowground). Send scv's down the ramp with cc and mine your natural. By the time u and he break threw the blockade, Take some scv's to protect the marines and kill zealots and pylons.
On April 14 2013 09:28 Thor.Rush wrote: Lucifron's hellbat drop build, which he does in TvZ and TvT, seems pretty damn legit too. Got that written down too ofc.
EPT
