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I really need help with my TvP plz.
Outmacroing my oponents worked all the way to masters. But It seems I never understood TvP because every game I lose late game even If I get 40 supply advantage. I just can't win. I outmacro my oponnents and I still lose because I can't kill them with the advantage I had. They catch up in supply and that's it I lose every game like this.
http://ggtracker.com/matches/6155562
On this game I was always ahead until I decide to fight and lose it all. I saw in the replay that I had huge supply advantage but if I look at his army and compare it to mine I don't feel my army ever wins in a straight up fight. That's why I don't recognize my huge advantage in game. Any advice? Is there something huge Im missing on TvP?
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On August 25 2015 11:28 00Zarathustra wrote:I really need help with my TvP plz. Outmacroing my oponents worked all the way to masters. But It seems I never understood TvP because every game I lose late game even If I get 40 supply advantage. I just can't win. I outmacro my oponnents and I still lose because I can't kill them with the advantage I had. They catch up in supply and that's it I lose every game like this. http://ggtracker.com/matches/6155562On this game I was always ahead until I decide to fight and lose it all. I saw in the replay that I had huge supply advantage but if I look at his army and compare it to mine I don't feel my army ever wins in a straight up fight. That's why I don't recognize my huge advantage in game. Any advice? Is there something huge Im missing on TvP?
One huge thing you might be missing is that you really don't want to take TvP to the lategame unless you have absolute confidence in your control. If you have an advantage, you should either try to kill Protoss through drops, which are very effective if you have more army, or you should just build some ghosts to max and then go attack at some timing. Your chances at winning do not get any higher if you sit with a good army composition. For a while you were maxed while he built up from 130 supply to close to 170, which then you attacked through a choke and lost everything.
In terms of capitalizing on your advantage and turning it into a win--I think you should have immediately attacked when you maxed with ghosts and vikings for the first time, and maybe looked to attack when 2/2 finished? (you would have perhaps needed a crisper ghost timing.) I personally would not have built ghosts; I would have built only vikings and done an scv pull, or built only medivacs and played maru style, either which would have killed him. But I think you just waited too long.
And generally, you were very slow about actually attacking but when you did attack you were very impatient to fight. Better to move out with your army quickly and be more patient about taking a fight. Try to force him to attack into you. And you obviously can't take your eyes off your army like you did when you lost all your marines to about 3 storms.
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Hello
I'm comming back to SC2 after a few years of not playing but only watching games here there. I've followed the scene more closely for the last month or so. Last time I actually played for real was in WoL and I played protoss. So there was a lot of cheese and not a lot of macro game. For terran I never played it much but I want to learn it in HotS.
Right now I feel it is really hard to gather information from either stream or on TL because most of the informations are outdated. I'm curious if that outdated info is of any use.
My question would be, where to start? I was high plat / low diamond.
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To be honest, if you're going to start a new game, you might as well go with LOTV.
But if you want to stick with HotS and terran, my advice:
- TvZ : Most pros go mech nowadays, so I suppose it's the best way to play right now. I'm still going bio because I think it's more fun so I can't really help you regarding mech. I'm following the 4M guide and I'm diamond, it's still working. I generally open either 11 gas into 3 reaper or CC first with only 1 reaper, into the standard 4M rally push and try to break the zerg's 4th. To go mech, I think a standard expand into helion-banshee is a decent opening. You have to be wary of 2 base mutas, but other than that it should give you a safe and solid start.
- TvT : Gas first all day every day. This guide is super helpful. I generally go bio after the openings, but it gets trickier and harder to make work properly each week that goes by. Mech is fucking strong, and people are getting better and better at it. I'd advise you to go look into mech as well for this matchup (but can't really help since I'm playing bio). Doom drops are also super strong and frustrating, so watch out for those (the boostivac changed a lot of things, having turrets does not mean you're safe anymore).
- TvP : I feel like you only have two possible openings in TvP: either you go reaper expand into 3 barracks (with a potential greedy 3rd CC somewhere in there), or you go reaper expand into 1-1-1 and mine drop. All builds go to bio as mech is super hard to make work on the terran side and way easier to counter as protoss. The matchup is still largely similar to what it was in WoL, except that the boostivacs help a lot with drop, so go crazy on those. You will have to be aware of a few more cheeses on the protoss side (proxy oracles mainly). The name of the game is still "never let them get to 3-4 bases with collo + storm". So you can either go Maru-style with mass MMM and drops everywhere constantly and try to outmultitask your opponent without getting vikings/ghosts, or you can play passively and SCV pull to kill the toss before storm. Those are the 2 main way this matchup is played, but the protoss players are getting better and better at holding SCV pulls.
My 2 cents...
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Thanks!
I was wondering too about LotV but I can't acces it right now so I'll stick to HotS. These few tips is a good starting point.
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On August 28 2015 09:03 Killbydeath wrote:
Thanks!
I was wondering too about LotV but I can't acces it right now so I'll stick to HotS. These few tips is a good starting point.
You're welcome, and don't hesitate to ask more questions, I'm always happy to help ! :-)
Just remember that I'm only diamond level, so I might not have all the answers, but there are better players lurking around I think, people like TheDwf, Naruto, KawaiiRice, VaderSeven, Jer99,... who used to post here often.
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On August 28 2015 18:20 LoneYoShi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2015 09:03 Killbydeath wrote:
Thanks!
I was wondering too about LotV but I can't acces it right now so I'll stick to HotS. These few tips is a good starting point. You're welcome, and don't hesitate to ask more questions, I'm always happy to help ! :-) Just remember that I'm only diamond level, so I might not have all the answers, but there are better players lurking around I think, people like TheDwf, Naruto, KawaiiRice, VaderSeven, Jer99,... who used to post here often.
Don't sell yourself short, you seem spot on from my point of view (about high master)
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TvT is all about the Mech now. So frustrating. Is anybody having good results vs Mech on master level?
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What are good ways to zone out roaches from tank/hellbats? even when i have 2/2 and i face 1/1 roaches they simply take all the shots, hug the tanks, spit and everything is gone. Added banshees but i dont enough of them before 10 minutes to do proper damage to roaches. banshees simply tickle them in low numbers. i tried to add some mines but they still run in. ZvZ mass roaches, TvZ mass roaches, so creative...
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Heyjo,
it seems i rly could need help in TvT vs Mech,
i already know that losing 10 banshees to some Thor isn't good, and i never had 3/3 bio, ok, but tbh, i think i lack basic knowledge about how to play vs mech. What i know is, Raven/Vikin and BCs or Banshee can work, but i have no clue. Plz help
http://ggtracker.com/matches/6162444
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On August 29 2015 05:35 PinoKotsBeer wrote:
What are good ways to zone out roaches from tank/hellbats? even when i have 2/2 and i face 1/1 roaches they simply take all the shots, hug the tanks, spit and everything is gone. Added banshees but i dont enough of them before 10 minutes to do proper damage to roaches. banshees simply tickle them in low numbers. i tried to add some mines but they still run in. ZvZ mass roaches, TvZ mass roaches, so creative...
buildings...turrets, CC, supply depots
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On August 28 2015 22:06 00Zarathustra wrote:
TvT is all about the Mech now. So frustrating. Is anybody having good results vs Mech on master level?
i have some success just trading bio for tanks even if its not cost efficient as long as i am out expanding the mech player. i just dont let them get to 150 supply. I target tanks and leave hellbats alive when i engage. If they attack then i basetrade. I dont actually transition into sky terran unless its very late i just like to mass expand and have mass barrack 3-3 bio production. As long as you are one base ahead its all good. (and keep safe against hellion runbys with bunkers/simcity)
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On August 30 2015 06:43 Wrathsc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2015 22:06 00Zarathustra wrote:
TvT is all about the Mech now. So frustrating. Is anybody having good results vs Mech on master level?
i have some success just trading bio for tanks even if its not cost efficient as long as i am out expanding the mech player. i just dont let them get to 150 supply. I target tanks and leave hellbats alive when i engage. If they attack then i basetrade. I dont actually transition into sky terran unless its very late i just like to mass expand and have mass barrack 3-3 bio production. As long as you are one base ahead its all good. (and keep safe against hellion runbys with bunkers/simcity)
What if he just turtles until he is maxed out?? It is really hard to trade if he is just defending with turrets siege tanks hellbats medivacs vikings.
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On August 30 2015 09:25 00Zarathustra wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2015 06:43 Wrathsc2 wrote:On August 28 2015 22:06 00Zarathustra wrote:
TvT is all about the Mech now. So frustrating. Is anybody having good results vs Mech on master level?
i have some success just trading bio for tanks even if its not cost efficient as long as i am out expanding the mech player. i just dont let them get to 150 supply. I target tanks and leave hellbats alive when i engage. If they attack then i basetrade. I dont actually transition into sky terran unless its very late i just like to mass expand and have mass barrack 3-3 bio production. As long as you are one base ahead its all good. (and keep safe against hellion runbys with bunkers/simcity) What if he just turtles until he is maxed out?? It is really hard to trade if he is just defending with turrets siege tanks hellbats medivacs vikings.
You shouldn't be winning against a decent meching player if they get to a point where they've maxed out. You could try to base trade, I suppose, but mech is incredibly cost efficient in straight up engagements. The games I lose vs bio at 1.7k masters happen for one of two reasons. The first is because of doom drops; the second is because the bio player does enough damage with their opening that it becomes incredibly difficult to take a third. If you're really committed to playing bio, I think the answer you're looking for is to just doom drop with a significant portion of your army to force the mech player out of position. Those kind of tactics rely on the meching player to mess up their defense, but they're pretty difficult to deal with in my experience.
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On August 30 2015 09:25 00Zarathustra wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2015 06:43 Wrathsc2 wrote:On August 28 2015 22:06 00Zarathustra wrote:
TvT is all about the Mech now. So frustrating. Is anybody having good results vs Mech on master level?
i have some success just trading bio for tanks even if its not cost efficient as long as i am out expanding the mech player. i just dont let them get to 150 supply. I target tanks and leave hellbats alive when i engage. If they attack then i basetrade. I dont actually transition into sky terran unless its very late i just like to mass expand and have mass barrack 3-3 bio production. As long as you are one base ahead its all good. (and keep safe against hellion runbys with bunkers/simcity) What if he just turtles until he is maxed out?? It is really hard to trade if he is just defending with turrets siege tanks hellbats medivacs vikings.
Post some replays, it's very important that you 1. force turrets in his main with drops 2. exploit every single attack path to the max 3. you can do some fancy micro with dropships to mitigate the tank shops if his vikings are out of position
But mech players these days have things so figured out it seems so hard to find a hole :/. Especially when they have 134123441 turrets so it's basically a no fly zone for your medis.
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What me helped last game i played vs mech, was a big doomdrop.
So i start with a gas first build and get a raven. This raven should never be lost. Later on, after i can't deny his 3rd base any more, i set up a big doomdrop, like 6 medivacs, and a small army outside his 3rd.
Use the double PDD to get into the mainbase, but scan first in case of lots of vikings there. The good thing is, if his vikings are defending his mainbase airspace, they wont be there to defend the tanks at the 3rd, so maybe you can doomdrop on top of them and crush the 3rd? Haven't tried that, would be very carefully with that.
But if you hit the main with a 6 medic double PDD doomdrop, he will most likely pull everything back do defend, he has to, that is the time you can siege up his 3rd, trade away the remaining tanks, and kill it, most of the time. Behind that take your own 4th, get to 5SP 4techlabs 1 Reactor, and pump out viking raven, keep trading and transition into a couble of BCs, 4-6 are enough, so you can engage super turtle player. At least that helped me last game i had to play a turtle mech guy
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On August 31 2015 15:17 AleXusher wrote:
What me helped last game i played vs mech, was a big doomdrop.
So i start with a gas first build and get a raven. This raven should never be lost. Later on, after i can't deny his 3rd base any more, i set up a big doomdrop, like 6 medivacs, and a small army outside his 3rd.
Use the double PDD to get into the mainbase, but scan first in case of lots of vikings there. The good thing is, if his vikings are defending his mainbase airspace, they wont be there to defend the tanks at the 3rd, so maybe you can doomdrop on top of them and crush the 3rd? Haven't tried that, would be very carefully with that.
But if you hit the main with a 6 medic double PDD doomdrop, he will most likely pull everything back do defend, he has to, that is the time you can siege up his 3rd, trade away the remaining tanks, and kill it, most of the time. Behind that take your own 4th, get to 5SP 4techlabs 1 Reactor, and pump out viking raven, keep trading and transition into a couble of BCs, 4-6 are enough, so you can engage super turtle player. At least that helped me last game i had to play a turtle mech guy
I think the problem with any strats like this that abuse mistakes is that eventually they stop working when opposing terrans just get better and play more cleanly. To beat mech reliably you need to find a solid strategy that doesn't rely on mistakes or avoidable holes in the defense. I don't know if that exists right now.
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On August 31 2015 15:29 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:
I think the problem with any strats like this that abuse mistakes is that eventually they stop working when opposing terrans just get better and play more cleanly. To beat mech reliably you need to find a solid strategy that doesn't rely on mistakes or avoidable holes in the defense. I don't know if that exists right now.
Depending on the map, Raven + Doomdrop isn't really a gimmick. On Coda for example position your army between the natural and third, if his vikings are on the left doom drop his tanks on the right (using PDD to tank the turret shots), if his vikings are on the right use PDD to get a doom drop off into the main. With clean execution there really isn't a strong response for the mech player.
But yeah, beating Mech with BioTank is more effort than it's worth. I just hate the soul wrenching mass air + turret late game scenarios, so I always play for the base race / big battles even if my lack of patience costs me a game here or there.
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I'm struggling vs mech players as well. I'll try that doomdrop with raven, since I generally open raven anyway.
I'm also toying with the following gameplan, and I'd like your input on it:
- I generally open with a raven, 2 vikings (produced one by one), and then I add the reactor on the starport and switch to medivacs.
- What if I continued with vikings instead of medivacs after the reactor to get/keep air control ?
- Since I won't have medivacs, I won't be able do several attacks with my bio army, that means I'll have to concentrate everything into 1 single (all-in) attack
- What I can still do however is threaten/posture around the map but never really attack unless I actually have to (stopping an incoming attack)/see a great opportunity (unsiege or something). The goal will still be to delay the third as much as possible.
- My objective would be to spare some gas to add on a quick second starport with techlab (maybe cut upgrades ? or go lighter on marauders ?) in order to get additional ravens or banshees ASAP.
- Once this is done (air control secured with vikings, one or two banshees), I try to force an unsiege with banshees, and then run in with my stimmed bio and landed vikings to try and end the game right there (break the third ? go for the nat/main ?).
- If he doesn't unsiege, I nibble at his tanks with my air control until I've killed a few, then land my vikings/stim in anyway.
I think this could have potential as a strong all-in attack against mech players. Any opinions ?
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How to counter protoss no expasion, 2 oracles/voidray/stalkers rush?
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EPT
